So, maybe we should at least ask the question. (Helm's contract)

[Heaton]

It's hard to remember what posters want to see Wings tank, and what fans want them to win. I want them to win. Therefore, I really like the Helm signing. And I love how this team has played now they are finally putting it together.

I'll make it easy for you, no one has said they want to see the Wings tank.

I love how Helm is playing, I still hate his contract.

 

[Flowah]

It's hard to remember what posters want to see Wings tank, and what fans want them to win. I want them to win. Therefore, I really like the Helm signing. And I love how this team has played now they are finally putting it together.

I want them to win the Cup.

Putting bandaids on the team to squeak into the playoffs every year without addressing our core needs does not get us to the Cup.

I'll make it easy for you, no one has said they want to see the Wings tank.

Sorry to do this but if there's another talent like Matthews or McDavid in the draft I would be like 60% for tanking. I don't think anyone we have in our pipeline on D or F or G gets us close enough to the Cup. I have serious doubts about our ability to draft players that do if we can't pick at least top3. I have even more doubts about those players being made available in FA and then more doubts about Holland's ability to land them if they did.

 

[Dotter]

I'll make it easy for you, no one has said they want to see the Wings tank.

I love how Helm is playing, I still hate his contract.

Not that black and white when there's comments like this:

It's a pretty clear indication that squeaking into the playoffs is more important than addressing the team's fundamental weaknesses.

How do you address the fundamental weaknesses without top draft picks to acquire either 1). the 1d 2). to acquire the assets to trade for the 1d?

Pulk+Frk+ Smith and a 4th rounder isn't getting you a Drew Doughty. Neither is a Tatar+ Sheahan+ Dekeyser. Hell, even Larkin+ isn't getting you that!

Facts remain the same, Wings DO NOT have the assets to acquire the player to "address the team's fundamental weaknesses".

So alternatively? What?

You're wrong Heaton. You are just wrong about what people are really saying they want.

 

[Syckle78]

I want the wings to tank. I want the wings to rebuild. Call it whatever you want. Running in place with a mediocre team that declines every year is stupid.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

We play a lot better at home because Blashill can control the matchups and protect the defensive weaknesses.

It remains to be seen what we will do on the road, but Blashill has an idea of how to get the team to play his system at home and how to control the game with his last change. That is good for 38 of the remaining games, but he is going to have to come up with something on the road.

Helm's line has been going everywhere. So that is a good sign. It fits the industrial nature that Helm likes to play the game with. He travels well and that is something that management likes. Same goes for Abdelakder. I am just not sure long-term what that means if some of these younger guys cannot start winning their matchups away from the Joe more often.

 

[Heaton]

You're wrong Heaton. You are just wrong about what people are really saying they want.

Nah - the issue is that you keep using the word 'tank' when it's not appropriate. Tanking means to intentionally lose, it means what Toronto did last year.

Not signing Nielsen, Vanek, Helm, Ott to contracts isn't tanking. Starting the year with AA and Mantha in the lineup isn't tanking. Now, if you want to say something to the effect that some fans would like to see the Wings go with kids and if they are bad and do not make the playoffs, they'd be fine with it. That's accurate. But flat out tanking? Nope, not even once, sorry dude.

 

[Dotter]

Nah - the issue is that you keep using the word 'tank' when it's not appropriate. Tanking means to intentionally lose, it means what Toronto did last year.

Not signing Nielsen, Vanek, Helm, Ott to contracts isn't tanking. Starting the year with AA and Mantha in the lineup isn't tanking. Now, if you want to say something to the effect that some fans would like to see the Wings go with kids and if they are bad and do not make the playoffs, they'd be fine with it. That's accurate. But flat out tanking? Nope, not even once, sorry dude.

It is my belief that if the GM doesn't do what he needs to do to give the team the best chance to win, then the team is 'purposely' tanking. Armchair GMs might think "yeah Pulkennin can play the role" when Vanek is the best possible option to help the team win for a reasonable cap hit, you sign Vanek! If the GM refuses to make the team better knowing full well the kids aren't going to hack it, then he's purposely tanking. Kind of like TMLs are doing. They are playing the kids knowing full well they can't hack it. Yup, that's tanking.

 

[Claypool]

Not signing Nielsen, Vanek, Helm, Ott to contracts isn't tanking. Starting the year with AA and Mantha in the lineup isn't tanking. Now, if you want to say something to the effect that some fans would like to see the Wings go with kids and if they are bad and do not make the playoffs, they'd be fine with it. That's accurate. But flat out tanking? Nope, not even once, sorry dude.

"Going with kids" is nice way of saying "we're tanking."

 

[Dotter]

"Going with kids" is nice way of saying "we're tanking."

That's exactly what TMLs are doing, yet he admits they are tanking.LOL

 

[ap3x]

Just consider the same old "you don't have to pay for it, so why do you criticize it" as tiring knockout arguments.
I mean, we aren't here to just agree on everything, are we?

Oh, and me "complaining" about management doesn't exclude cheering for the team and celebrating goals.
I've always cheered for it, and I'll always do so.

 

[14ari13]

Helm is a very useful NHL player and has been for most of his career. I've always liked him better as a bottom 6 center than as a top 6 winger, so I'm glad he has returned there. The issue with Helms contract us not the price but the length. He is maybe just slightly overpaid but he is one of the best 3rd line centers in the league.

The problem is that he is already in the prime of his career and is a speed player. Take away his speed and you lose most of his effectiveness. There is a good chance that at 35 he will not be remotely the same player. Now if the Winfo are smart and say deal him in or after year 3, the contract will be fine. The problem is that Holland refuses to deal players.

This is a very good point and true.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Not that black and white when there's comments like this:



How do you address the fundamental weaknesses without top draft picks to acquire either 1). the 1d 2). to acquire the assets to trade for the 1d?

Pulk+Frk+ Smith and a 4th rounder isn't getting you a Drew Doughty. Neither is a Tatar+ Sheahan+ Dekeyser. Hell, even Larkin+ isn't getting you that!

Facts remain the same, Wings DO NOT have the assets to acquire the player to "address the team's fundamental weaknesses".

So alternatively? What?

You're wrong Heaton. You are just wrong about what people are really saying they want.

Well when you believe the only alternative to the Wings current plan is tanking, I'm not surprised it sounds to you like that's what people are saying.

You've taken one comment of mine, tacked on your own points that I never said, and reached the false conclusion that what I was really saying is they need to tank. Well done.

 

[njx9]

"Going with kids" is nice way of saying "we're tanking."

I'm surprised you think so poorly of our players. Is Sproul really playing worse than Quincey would have been? Is AA that bad? Is Mantha that hopeless? Is Ott really irreplaceable? Is Sheahan? Or Smith? It's comments like this that make me think that maybe I'm a far more optimistic fan than I realized and that accusations of pessimism are more than a bit misplaced.

Either that or it's just more deliberate misrepresentation in order to use a strawman as an ideological bludgeon. God forbid we try to have an honest conversation, though.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Looking at the deal in a vacuum it's not as bad. Though there's still risk he will be significantly overpaid in the back half of the contract as he gets older.

It would really be me just beating a dead horse at this point. But Helm's contract is not in a vacuum. It's a pretty clear indication that squeaking into the playoffs is more important than addressing the team's fundamental weaknesses.

No it doesn't mean that. But it's a clear indication that management/coaching doesn't believe in a strategy of throwing all prospects into the river and see who sinks and who swims. Nielsen, Helm and Z are the guys affording us the option of not putting 100% of the pressure on Larkin to a C at this point in time. Guys like Helm and Abdelkader are also among the best examples you can find of work ethic in the league. They don't take nights off. That's what you want Larkin/AA/etc to look at.

If you're not drafting in the top 5-10, you need to put young players in the best possible environment for them to reach (or exceed) potential. That can mean many things, but one thing is to not put too much pressure on them too early. Letting players grow into roles rather than being thrown into them.

 

[Claypool]

I'm surprised you think so poorly of our players. Is Sproul really playing worse than Quincey would have been? Is AA that bad? Is Mantha that hopeless? Is Ott really irreplaceable? Is Sheahan? Or Smith? It's comments like this that make me think that maybe I'm a far more optimistic fan than I realized and that accusations of pessimism are more than a bit misplaced.

Either that or it's just more deliberate misrepresentation in order to use a strawman as an ideological bludgeon. God forbid we try to have an honest conversation, though.

If Pulkkinen, Mantha, AA, Bertuzzi, etc were all on the starting roster over guys like Vanek, Miller, Helm this team misses the playoffs. They'd likely be out of the playoffs by the Thanksgiving cut off, the remaining vets would be sold off, and even more young players get into the lineup to ensuring the tank is complete. That's how you tank.

 

[njx9]

If Pulkkinen, Mantha, AA, Bertuzzi, etc were all on the starting roster over guys like Vanek, Miller, Helm this team misses the playoffs. They'd likely be out of the playoffs by the Thanksgiving cut off, the remaining vets would be sold off, and even more young players get into the lineup to ensuring the tank is complete. That's how you tank.

1) Tanking is not the same thing as missing the playoffs. Being the 12th worst team and trying to be in the top three worst teams are completely different proposals, and it's bizarre, bordering on intentionally dishonest, to try to compare them.
2) I'm unsure why Pulk's name has suddenly started appearing, as if an appreciable number of Wings fans were actually clamoring for him to be in the top 9 this year, rather than thinking he ought to have been the first 'major' cut.
3) Which remaining vets would be sold off? Z? Kronwall? Ericsson? If the team is already out of it by November, none of them are playing or have any value anyways, so whatever, I guess.
4) It's interesting that you think the Wings prospects are so bad, and so ill-prepared for the NHL, that the team would be out by Thanksgiving, in spite of having already played AA and two new defensemen in place of more 'seasoned' players.

 

[Claypool]

1) Tanking is not the same thing as missing the playoffs. Being the 12th worst team and trying to be in the top three worst teams are completely different proposals, and it's bizarre, bordering on intentionally dishonest, to try to compare them.
2) I'm unsure why Pulk's name has suddenly started appearing, as if an appreciable number of Wings fans were actually clamoring for him to be in the top 9 this year, rather than thinking he ought to have been the first 'major' cut.
3) Which remaining vets would be sold off? Z? Kronwall? Ericsson? If the team is already out of it by November, none of them are playing or have any value anyways, so whatever, I guess.
4) It's interesting that you think the Wings prospects are so bad, and so ill-prepared for the NHL, that the team would be out by Thanksgiving, in spite of having already played AA and two new defensemen in place of more 'seasoned' players.

Once you're guaranteed to miss the playoffs you try to put yourself in the position to finish as last as possible. Every team does it. Don't pretend otherwise. You shut guys down longer who have minor injuries, you give prospects longer looks in the pros, etc. By vets, I mean Tatar, Nyquist, Smith, Ericsson. You blow the team up at that point. Sell of anyone who has a taker. Those guys would be got at the deadline, ensuring the tank is complete by the final eight weeks.

I really like Detroit's prospect depth, but they aren't good enough to win games by themselves yet. Young teams almost always lose. Look at the Leafs. Look at Arizona. Winnipeg is struggling. Teams that are extremely young rarely have success in terms of wins.

 

[SirloinUB]

I'll make it easy for you, no one has said they want to see the Wings tank.

I love how Helm is playing, I still hate his contract.

A 5 year contract is not ideal but the hate for the contract is so overblown. Through several exercises on the last page we have determined that the caphit is fair value for what he brings to the table leaving the only grievance as "the term is too long".

1) The term is only a problem if we assume Helm's game deteriorates significantly. Considering the contract expires when he is 34 it is very plausible that his play doesn't deteriorate that much. I'm not saying he will be exactly as good as he is now, but many players are still effective before turning 35.

2) The most important point is the contract was built to be traded even with the NTC. First, real dollars paid will fall below the caphit by the start of the 3rd year and continue to dive until the final season. Second, and more importantly, there are NTC opt out clauses covering the final 3 years of the contract.

3) I guess the third knock is it removes flexibility. Well Helm's contract currently represents a measly 5% of the salary cap. Between this fact and the NTC opt out clauses, nothing more needs to be said here.

Through this, I haven't even put stock into the fact that Helm may be playing the best hockey of his career RIGHT NOW. I doubt he can maintain this production all season but he can maintain this level of effectiveness by being the responsible center between two offensive guys.

___________________________________________

The problem is that he is already in the prime of his career and is a speed player. Take away his speed and you lose most of his effectiveness.

There are many examples of plus skaters who remained strong skaters even as they aged. However, Helm minus a step would still be an average NHL skater.

Even with regression, I just don't believe Helm at 34 will be like Cleary clinging to life as a hockey player at 34 in 2014.

 

[njx9]

Once you're guaranteed to miss the playoffs you try to put yourself in the position to finish as last as possible. Every team does it. Don't pretend otherwise. You shut guys down longer who have minor injuries, you give prospects longer looks in the pros, etc. By vets, I mean Tatar, Nyquist, Smith, Ericsson. You blow the team up at that point. Sell of anyone who has a taker. Those guys would be got at the deadline, ensuring the tank is complete by the final eight weeks.

Why would you sell off Tatar and Nyquist in a youth movement? Smith and Ericsson are literally valueless, and that's with a team that's playing relatively well. Again, you've set up this tank strawman and decided to spend some time knocking it down, when it has very little to do with what anyone is saying. This isn't a bottom 3 team, if it plays Mantha, AA and Bert in primary roles, over signing guys like Helm, Vanek and Ott.

I really like Detroit's prospect depth, but they aren't good enough to win games by themselves yet. Young teams almost always lose. Look at the Leafs. Look at Arizona. Winnipeg is struggling. Teams that are extremely young rarely have success in terms of wins.

If you think the substitutions mentioned, talked about, and listed turn this team from bubble to 'out by Thanksgiving', then you have a really, really low opinion of the guys who'd be playing. They'd have to be actively detrimental on a night-by-night basis. Alternately, we can all admit that while our record might end up slightly worse, playing our top 3 prospects (and I'm not even including Sproul/XO here) over the vets we signed isn't even in the same ballpark as the tanking that Toronto and Buffalo have done recently. Once we admit that, we can stop badly miscasting arguments. Maybe.

 

[SoupNazi]

Given how this has derailed into a tank vs. non tank thread, we're done here.