So I’m watching Bobby Orr highlights

[LaFan1967]

Can someone explain the special needs goalies in the OPs highlights post?

Goalie equipment weighing 20 lbs more maybe ? bulker pads restricting
movement ? players going to block a shot and then going no way i'm getting killed stopping a wild slapshot ?

Orr was go good I saw him kill a two minute penalty by skating with the puck the whole time .

 

[Thenameless]

No.

They are better.

Much better.

Just like Ronaldo and Messi are lightyears better than Pele.

Okay, so you take the two guys with no World Cup wins over the one guy with three World Cup wins, and about as many World Cup goals as the other two combined. Got it. Gimme Pele and Bobby Orr.

 

[Analyst365]

No.

They are better.

Much better.

Just like Ronaldo and Messi are lightyears better than Pele.

 

[GOilers88]

Orr completely changed how hockey was played because he could do things nobody else could, and like Gretzky could see things before other people could. He would absolutely be the best defenseman playing today with todays equipment and training. People can learn to play like him, but you cant teach or instill the x-factor that make the legends legendary.

 

[bukwas]

Too often i see people questioning how good the stars of yesteryear were compared to todays stars. Keep in mind they too would benefit from the advancements in conditioning ,ice surfaces, nutrition etc. etc. etc. They would, without a doubt, be equally as dominant today as they were then.

 

[Knave]

He created a whole new playing style that revolutionized the position. You think someone that can do that would just fall hopelessly behind once everyone knew his style?

That's like saying Da Vinci would struggle today because middle schoolers know more science than him today. If he had access to the internet throughout his whole life you think he'd still be inventing the same ****? Of course not, he'd learn that **** in a week and blast off in a new direction.

I agree his hockey contribution is easily the most valuable but I'm just saying that even if he grew up in say this era (Crosby/Ovechkin/McDavid)... with everyone learning skating their whole lives, I'm not sure he stands out as much as he did back then.

 

[authentic]

I agree with ya and would just like to add a 3rd- teams/players have learned what works and what doesn't. Butterfly goaltending being the big example. The game has just evolved naturally, guys like Orr sped that progression up, but yeah, there's just fewer areas of the game to exploit.

Oddly enough I was thinking about this with Gretzky earlier. What I'm about to say is sacrilege, but.. guys, I think if Gretz played in the modern era he'd be more akin to Crosby than the world-beating GOAT he actually is. Don't get me wrong, he still gets credit for what he did because no one else was playing the game like him, no one played it on that level and so he is the inventor, the creator, the genesis.. but there's a point of diminishing returns once players start perfecting the game, and they're closing in on that ceiling every season. Like, McDavid, Crosby, Kuch, etc. just can't break the game like Orr or Gretzky did.

For an odd analogy, take realist painting. Those Vermeer masterpieces- some kid in India can do that now and sell it to ya for $20. The techniques have been mastered, the skills learned and made more numerous, and so nowadays you have thousands of highly skilled modern painters for every 1 master of the olden times. It's not taking anything away from what the guy actually did, but it is saying that it'd be tougher to stand out in the modern world.

So do you believe Gretzky too would be more like a Crosby today?

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

I don't know why people compare eras. You can't. It's like saying the U.S. Army of WWII would have beaten Napoleon's army. Well no ****. But you shouldn't be judged against people you never competed against. That's not how it works. If you're Valedictorian of your class, they don't compare you vs. subsequent valedictorians. You were the best. Your race is over.

Think this through though.
5 defensemen have scored 100 points in a season.
Orr 5x
Coffey 5x
MacInnis 1
Leetch 1
Potvin 1
in 1970-71 a 22 year old Orr put up this stat line

78gp

37g

102a

139pts

91pim

+124

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Plus 124.
In a season. Call it a garbage stat if you want. That's crazy.

His career stats:

657gp

270g

645a

915pts

953pim

+582

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

A+582 in 657 games?

And he was basically done at 26 years old. If he played 10 more years, good God.

To add to this.

8x Norris
3x Hart
2x Ross
8x AS-1
2x Smythe

All by age 26...

edit: Also Orr has 6 100 point seasons

 

[SML2]

To add to this.

8x Norris
3x Hart
2x Ross
8x AS-1
2x Smythe

All by age 26...

edit: Also Orr has 6 100 point seasons

You're right. 6. And the other stuff I left out because my point was, only 5 humans have ever scored 100 points as an NHL dman, and he did it multiple times. I just miscounted.

 

[paragon]

That being said, maybe they just look like clueless beer league guys because Orr is THAT good.

It's because the league had just expanded from a 6 team beer league to 12-16 teams and the already low number of talent was massively diluted. And also because was great, but they look bad because thet were bad back in the day.

 

[Vilica]

I don't know why people compare eras. You can't. It's like saying the U.S. Army of WWII would have beaten Napoleon's army. Well no ****. But you shouldn't be judged against people you never competed against. That's not how it works. If you're Valedictorian of your class, they don't compare you vs. subsequent valedictorians. You were the best. Your race is over.

Think this through though.
5 defensemen have scored 100 points in a season.
Orr 5x
Coffey 5x
MacInnis 1
Leetch 1
Potvin 1
in 1970-71 a 22 year old Orr put up this stat line

78gp

37g

102a

139pts

91pim

+124

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Plus 124.
In a season. Call it a garbage stat if you want. That's crazy.

For what it is worth, if you divide the league in 70-71 into the Original 6 (NYR, Chi, Mtl, Tor, and Det), skipping Boston because Orr played for them, and into the Expansion 8 (because this was the first year for both Buffalo and Vancouver), you can break down Orr's stat line

Total - 78 Games, 37 Goals, 102 Assists, 139 Points, +124
Total per game - 0.474 G/1.30 A/ 1.78 P

vs the O6 - 30 Games, 11 Goals, 35 Assists, 46 Points, +42
Per game numbers .366 G/1.16 A/ 1.53 P

vs the Expansion 8 - 48 Games, 26 Goals, 67 Assists, 93 Points, +82
Per game numbers .541 G/1.39 A/1.93 P

Now I'm taking nothing away from Orr's stats, even his stats against Original 6 teams are great for a defenseman. But if you look at his team splits for his entire prime in Boston, and turn them into per 82 game averages, you get these numbers.

Games			Goals	Assists	Points
298	vs O6	/82	27.79	66.87	94.66
233	vs E1	/82	35.90	92.56	128.45
90	vs E2	/82	51.02	95.67	146.69

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

There have been 16 player-seasons in NHL history where a defenseman has gone 25+65, 6 by Orr, 6 by Coffey, 2 by Potvin, and 1 each for Bourque and MacInnis, so Orr's numbers if you extrapolated his games just against the O6 would be historic. But the games against the expansion franchises are the ones that turn them into legendary numbers.

Edit: E1 refers to the Flyers, Kings, Penguins, Blues, North Stars, and California Golden Seals. E2 refers to Sabres, Canucks, Atlanta Flames, Islanders, KC Scouts, and the Capitals.

 

[Voight]

He was a cheat code

 

[Took a pill in Sbisa]

Honest question, what's the goalie doing at 0:32?

 

[JamieG19]

I'll say it.....Bobby Orr is overrated.

What I mean by that is if he was playing today he would be crucified when he made one of his many mistakes or weak defensive plays. People like Don Cherry and other old timers talk about him like he was perfect. Or highlight packages the one in this thread is all people see of him.

I believe there's some of the the 1970s Bruins playoff series...if it's still on You Tube, take a look. Lots of brutal plays by #4.

 

[CpatainCanuck]

As others have mentioned, expansion had a lot to do with how dominant Orr appeared over the average nhl players. In his rookie season of 1966/67 there were 6 nhl teams; by 1972/73 there were 16 nhl teams plus 12 in the WHA. Players who wouldn’t have sniffed the O6 nhl were now playing in the top 6 or top d pairing of many expansion teams.

So if many Bobby Orr highlights look like he’s skating circles around minor league pylons, that’s because he basically was!

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

So do you believe Gretzky too would be more like a Crosby today?

More or less, yes. I think he'd still clearly be the best, he deserves that respect, and I think he revolutionized the game so he gets credit for the sport being what it is today- but all else being the same I just don't see how he'd put up 150+ points in today's league. I'd see him as consistently 10, 20 points better than the other stars of the game, but I just think player parity has increased to the point where he could not dominate today like he did in his era. That's not taking anything away from him- you don't discount the Wright brothers because of 747s- but ya, that's my sacrilegious statement.

 

[BraveCanadian]

This literally cannot be posted enough on this forum. There are way too many people here who think that human beings have evolved significantly in recent times. And way too many people who believe that somehow there is so much more hockey talent now than ever.. except they can't prove it and most indicators show that it is an idea very much up for debate.

Yes, goalies are more effective now than in the past. But it is because equipment changes enabled a change in playstyle. Yes, the average player is probably a better skater now.. because skates are much better and their equipment is much lighter.

Just please don't tell me how today's players are all superhuman when we've all seen pictures of fat Ovechkin and ripped Bobby Hull in the arguments here over the years. Players of different body types are always playing in the league and it seems to have less bearing on their success then how good they are at, you know, playing hockey.

 

[The Panther]

I will never understand this belief people have in the importance of determining how "so-and-so" would fare in today's NHL. This is not only a false, sci-fi scenario, but it is of absolutely no importance whatsoever. How many points Leon Draisaitl would have scored alongside Aurel Joliat in 1927 is simply not a burning issue to me, yet people go and on about it, as if it's significant. How many points would Patrick Kane get if beamed into the future in 2047?? I just gotta know that.

Yeah, no.

 

[BadgerBruce]

I will never understand this belief people have in the importance of determining how "so-and-so" would fare in today's NHL. This is not only a false, sci-fi scenario, but it is of absolutely no importance whatsoever. How many points Leon Draisaitl would have scored alongside Aurel Joliat in 1927 is simply not a burning issue to me, yet people go and on about it, as if it's significant. How many points would Patrick Kane get if beamed into the future in 2047?? I just gotta know that.

Yeah, no.

Excellent post. I’ve not a word to add.

 

[Knave]

Excellent post. I’ve not a word to add.

Yeah... except nobody is f***ing doing that. People seem to have giant erections at the thought of how great players were back in the old days compared to now despite all evidence pointing to that being total bunk.

Bobby Orr had that separation in scoring because the league as a whole was less refined, more shit and grew by over 100% in # teams during the time he played.

We're not waiting for the next Bobby Orr. Bobby Orr wasn't that good because neither were his peers. That overall garbage level means top performers (like Orr) look better. The higher quality today means it's harder for guys like Ovechkin and Crosby to stand out and win awards. This is the diminishing returns concept in reality. Look at any world record, it doesn't drop in a linear fashion.

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

Honest question, what's the goalie doing at 0:32?

I dont see a goalie at 0:32

 

[Hanji]

It’s a highlight video; a ‘best of’ compilation.

To assume Orr was a magician on every shift, or his competition was garbage is ridiculous.

 

[VanIslander]

Who are you people?

So many posters in this thread I've never seen on the History board before. Was this thread moved here?

(Edit: I recognize seven posters, only two of which are on the first few pages. Welcome newbies. Are you lurkers or sudden participants from other boards?)

 

[Hanji]

Maybe it's the quality of the video, but that game looks so slow and with wide-open spaces compared to today. That doesn't even take into account goalies, who are far better overall today.

Keep in mind, that video was before the introduction of the short-shift game. As such, the pace of play was much slower.

The game also looks dirtier but less physical. The lack of equipment would keep high impact collisions to a minimum.
Also, on average, players were much smaller; which is likely part of the reason it looks like there’s so much space on the ice.

 

[Pominville Knows]

It’s a highlight video; a ‘best of’ compilation.

To assume Orr was a magician on every shift, or his competition was garbage is ridiculous.

Yeah. To watch Crosby play, especially post-2013 until now, you 98% see a player that don't want to make a mistake, coupled with a 1-in-50 spectacular play.
Still an exciting player though becouse almost everyone else is 99% safe.
2018/19 looks pretty promising though, so hopefully the exceptional speed of the young guns continues in the coming years. It is probably the reason that we now see, a bit like with Orr's speed, that safe players gets burned too often so that the whole league have to transform into being more skill oriented.
Thankfully players through training now is more close to the median though, gives us a lower amount of goals per game, so we don't get as unfortunate of a situation as with Gretzky that forced guys like Savard, Hawerchuk and Stastny to have to try and tie him at his very own free flowing game.