So I’m watching Bobby Orr highlights

SpinningEdge

Registered User
Feb 12, 2015
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the guy skates so much better than his peers. Wow.

He is considered one of best players of all-time - and he is no doubt.

But here’s what’s weird. Orr was before my time so I’m trying to watch stuff on how great players in past eras were.l

But wow... just watching some of the defense in the past, the skating in the past, and these goalies in the past... it’s kind of brutal to watch.

That being said, maybe they just look like clueless beer league guys because Orr is THAT good.

Again, this video of Orr highlights isn’t to mock Orr. I consider him a all-time great of course. He is no doubt. I am simply posting this so people can see the difference in defense/the game from back then VS now.

Just watch.... wow. We are sooooo lucky to have high definition and the talent/speed/etc we have now. Watching nhl at this time seems like by far best era to watch hockey.

 

Rubi

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Jan 9, 2009
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I'm old enough to have had the pleasure of watching Orr play. Best defenseman in the history of the game and if arthroscopic surgery had been available when he played he would have rivaled Gretzky as the best player in the history of the game. Not only did his multiple knee surgeries cut his career short he also played injured for a good portion of his career.
 

Plural

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Mar 10, 2011
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I know I might be bit alone in this line of thought. But I do believe that it was easier to separate yourself from your peers in physical aspects of the game when Orr was playing or when Bobby Hull was playing. Now, I am not saying they don't belong in the upper echelon of the greatest. They do and they would be great every era. But the amount of separation between Orr and average player in the late 60's is much larger than the separation would be between Orr and average player from the 90's. The league has gotten more professional and competitive, 4th line players make money in the amounts that lawyers and doctors try to get to when they're nearing retirement. Every single player who steps on the NHL ice today, is fully tuned professional athlete or an exceptional talent who's just been drafted. Even at the age of 18 or 19 players have substantial knowledge on skating techniques and diet. Physically gifted athletes still these days have a head start against less gifted one's, but the gap has closed substantially.

Mainly for two reasons.

1. The NHL today is a work environment that pays closer to 7 figures at minimum. Everyone who's good enough to become even a semi-staple on a teams 4th line will have the incentive and monetary means to train full time with the best possible methods.
2. The improvement in equipment allows bit more balance between the small differences in abilities. Skates back in the 60's were softer, clunkier and just simply "worse" than today. If you were an excellent skater vs. good skater, the difference on the ice was more visible because of how little room for error there was in equipment.
 

Spirit of 67

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Nov 25, 2016
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I think one of the things that makes D look so bad is Orr played in the early years of the Expansion Era. Just imagine Crosby, Ovechkin or McDavid playing in the league that doubled in size over night. Then, had more talent drain away to a rival league.
On the other hand, when people bring up that argument, I always counter with, if it was so easy, why didn't everyone do it?

Ultimately, the balance between scoring and preventing scoring ebbs and flows. We had a dead puck era not long ago and I think we're on our way towards a live puck era. Not like the 80's of course but certainly much more offensive minded.
 

Plural

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Mar 10, 2011
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I think one of the things that makes D look so bad is Orr played in the early years of the Expansion Era. Just imagine Crosby, Ovechkin or McDavid playing in the league that doubled in size over night. Then, had more talent drain away to a rival league.
On the other hand, when people bring up that argument, I always counter with, if it was so easy, why didn't everyone do it?

Ultimately, the balance between scoring and preventing scoring ebbs and flows. We had a dead puck era not long ago and I think we're on our way towards a live puck era. Not like the 80's of course but certainly much more offensive minded.

Good point. I should have said that too. The expansion era surely had a shortage of talent. Compared to the size of the league of course.
 

BigBadBruins7708

Registered User
Dec 11, 2017
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I think one of the things that makes D look so bad is Orr played in the early years of the Expansion Era. Just imagine Crosby, Ovechkin or McDavid playing in the league that doubled in size over night. Then, had more talent drain away to a rival league.
On the other hand, when people bring up that argument, I always counter with, if it was so easy, why didn't everyone do it?

Ultimately, the balance between scoring and preventing scoring ebbs and flows. We had a dead puck era not long ago and I think we're on our way towards a live puck era. Not like the 80's of course but certainly much more offensive minded.

That's a false premise.

The league went from 6 to 12 teams.

There was plenty of NHL talent not in the league in the O6 era. Doubling the league didn't water it down, it simply made the number of jobs closer to the number of available players.

Guys like Orr and Hull look so much better and make the other players look bad because they were that good.

FYI, today's defense and goalies would look bad too in a Crosby or Ovechkin highlight reel...that's kinda how highlights work

Orr is one of the 2 best players to ever play and literally changed the way the game is played.
 

TheDawnOfANewTage

Dahlin, it’ll all be fine
Dec 17, 2018
12,023
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I know I might be bit alone in this line of thought. But I do believe that it was easier to separate yourself from your peers in physical aspects of the game when Orr was playing or when Bobby Hull was playing. Now, I am not saying they don't belong in the upper echelon of the greatest. They do and they would be great every era. But the amount of separation between Orr and average player in the late 60's is much larger than the separation would be between Orr and average player from the 90's. The league has gotten more professional and competitive, 4th line players make money in the amounts that lawyers and doctors try to get to when they're nearing retirement. Every single player who steps on the NHL ice today, is fully tuned professional athlete or an exceptional talent who's just been drafted. Even at the age of 18 or 19 players have substantial knowledge on skating techniques and diet. Physically gifted athletes still these days have a head start against less gifted one's, but the gap has closed substantially.

Mainly for two reasons.

1. The NHL today is a work environment that pays closer to 7 figures at minimum. Everyone who's good enough to become even a semi-staple on a teams 4th line will have the incentive and monetary means to train full time with the best possible methods.
2. The improvement in equipment allows bit more balance between the small differences in abilities. Skates back in the 60's were softer, clunkier and just simply "worse" than today. If you were an excellent skater vs. good skater, the difference on the ice was more visible because of how little room for error there was in equipment.

I agree with ya and would just like to add a 3rd- teams/players have learned what works and what doesn't. Butterfly goaltending being the big example. The game has just evolved naturally, guys like Orr sped that progression up, but yeah, there's just fewer areas of the game to exploit.

Oddly enough I was thinking about this with Gretzky earlier. What I'm about to say is sacrilege, but.. guys, I think if Gretz played in the modern era he'd be more akin to Crosby than the world-beating GOAT he actually is. Don't get me wrong, he still gets credit for what he did because no one else was playing the game like him, no one played it on that level and so he is the inventor, the creator, the genesis.. but there's a point of diminishing returns once players start perfecting the game, and they're closing in on that ceiling every season. Like, McDavid, Crosby, Kuch, etc. just can't break the game like Orr or Gretzky did.

For an odd analogy, take realist painting. Those Vermeer masterpieces- some kid in India can do that now and sell it to ya for $20. The techniques have been mastered, the skills learned and made more numerous, and so nowadays you have thousands of highly skilled modern painters for every 1 master of the olden times. It's not taking anything away from what the guy actually did, but it is saying that it'd be tougher to stand out in the modern world.
 

Cotton

Registered User
May 13, 2013
9,120
5,611
the guy skates so much better than his peers. Wow.

He is considered one of best players of all-time - and he is no doubt.

But here’s what’s weird. Orr was before my time so I’m trying to watch stuff on how great players in past eras were.l

But wow... just watching some of the defense in the past, the skating in the past, and these goalies in the past... it’s kind of brutal to watch.

That being said, maybe they just look like clueless beer league guys because Orr is THAT good.

Again, this video of Orr highlights isn’t to mock Orr. I consider him a all-time great of course. He is no doubt. I am simply posting this so people can see the difference in defense/the game from back then VS now.

Just watch.... wow. We are sooooo lucky to have high definition and the talent/speed/etc we have now. Watching nhl at this time seems like by far best era to watch hockey.



The NHL today is absolute garbage as compared to say, around 90-95', which imo had reached a pinnacle of entertainment around 93'-94'-95', big hits, fights, rivalries, lots of scoring and creativity, and the goaltending was good too. Today the league is the least creative, aggressive, and emotional than it's ever been. The players themselves lack the emotion and passion that used to be common, I find.

Also, things change era to era, people have a habit of trashing goaltending pre-90's because of the 70's and 80's, but I read that when the save-percentage statistic was introduced they went back and went over the box scores and found that Jacques Plante had several season with Sv% at or near .940 - just dominant.

When it was just 6 teams each was something of an All-Star team, expansions watered the league down, today it's all systems, which allows players with very little talent to survive in the league.

The equipment has improved, but the men wearing it are inferior.
 

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
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There's an optical illusion when watching old games that the players looked much worst than today.This is because of the equipement, especially the skates.Proof? Just watch old-timers, like say, I don't know, Guy Lafleur, play with modern gear, and he almost "looks" better at age 60 than he was at age 26.There's also the optical illusion that there seem to be more space on the ice, but that isn't so.I have seen Guy Lafleur pick corners with his slapshot in his late 50s during a practice.Not a lot of NHLer can do that even today.

If you closely observe Bobby Orr's skating and mobility, watch his feet, the angles, you'll notice there is no one today or since that was at his level of skating.Maybe Paul Coffey competes, but still loses.

Put Bobby Orr in modern skates and gear and he'd still circle around players, but look better doing it due to the optical illusion.Maybe not to the extent of the video but close enough.He would be a lock for the Norris every year and would contend for the Art Ross.

Natural talent is natural talent.Also body structure (including feet, leg, backbone and neck structure), which is largely a genetic lottery and is crucial for mobility and skating technic.This is why a guy like Bobby Hull is still stronger than 99% of NHLers despite having no modern training and the likes.
 
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NHL WAR

Registered User
Sep 29, 2018
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The play starting at 2:51 of the video is perfect. Breaks up scoring chance in own end, speeds up ice, passes puck as he avoids check, continues to the net and pots in the return pass.
 

Benttheknee

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Jun 18, 2005
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Ottawa
The hockey back then was way weaker for sure but one thing to consider was who actually played professionally. The players were not well paid. Today the competition is very stiff for the top jobs. The difference between NHL and other pro leagues is quite large, so that makes players compete hard.

Today's athletes are not more athletic, they just tap more of their athletic potential.
 
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RegularSznAllStars

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Sep 23, 2014
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The NHL today is absolute garbage as compared to say, around 90-95', which imo had reached a pinnacle of entertainment around 93'-94'-95', big hits, fights, rivalries, lots of scoring and creativity, and the goaltending was good too. Today the league is the least creative, aggressive, and emotional than it's ever been. The players themselves lack the emotion and passion that used to be common, I find.

Also, things change era to era, people have a habit of trashing goaltending pre-90's because of the 70's and 80's, but I read that when the save-percentage statistic was introduced they went back and went over the box scores and found that Jacques Plante had several season with Sv% at or near .940 - just dominant.

When it was just 6 teams each was something of an All-Star team, expansions watered the league down, today it's all systems, which allows players with very little talent to survive in the league.

The equipment has improved, but the men wearing it are inferior.

I literally could not disagree with your opinion more.
 

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
30,844
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And observe the one-handed goal at about 5 min mark.Observe the first fake he does that puts a Ranger player on his ass.Very subtle change of balance and speed on his right leg at exactly the right timing.This is pure talent.
 

zappa4ever

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Feb 10, 2010
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I don't think the 67-70 expansion really watered down anything but gave opportunity to a lot of players, but the league expanded to
14 in 1970
16 in 1972
18 in 1974

The real watering down happened when the WHA started in 1972 (12 teams)
acc. to wiki 67 players bolted from the NHL for the inaugural WHA 1972 season

The gradual advance of systems and equipment plus the growing of the game thru TV and expanding to new markets in the US over the years, bringing in more international talent, etc brings us to the high level of play and skill today
 
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Eisen

Registered User
Sep 30, 2009
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the guy skates so much better than his peers. Wow.

He is considered one of best players of all-time - and he is no doubt.

But here’s what’s weird. Orr was before my time so I’m trying to watch stuff on how great players in past eras were.l

But wow... just watching some of the defense in the past, the skating in the past, and these goalies in the past... it’s kind of brutal to watch.

That being said, maybe they just look like clueless beer league guys because Orr is THAT good.

Again, this video of Orr highlights isn’t to mock Orr. I consider him a all-time great of course. He is no doubt. I am simply posting this so people can see the difference in defense/the game from back then VS now.

Just watch.... wow. We are sooooo lucky to have high definition and the talent/speed/etc we have now. Watching nhl at this time seems like by far best era to watch hockey.


It's really not that brutal. Tube skates, the sticks and the goalie equipment were entirely different. The players didn't slack. Today's game was simply impossible.
 

Turin

Registered User
Feb 27, 2018
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25,281
There's an optical illusion when watching old games that the players looked much worst than today.This is because of the equipement, especially the skates.Proof? Just watch old-timers, like say, I don't know, Guy Lafleur, play with modern gear, and he almost "looks" better at age 60 than he was at age 26.There's also the optical illusion that there seem to be more space on the ice, but that isn't so.I have seen Guy Lafleur pick corners with his slapshot in his late 50s during a practice.Not a lot of NHLer can do that even today.

If you closely observe Bobby Orr's skating and mobility, watch his feet, the angles, you'll notice there is no one today or since that was at his level of skating.Maybe Paul Coffey competes, but still loses.

Put Bobby Orr in modern skates and gear and he'd still circle around players, but look better doing it due to the optical illusion.Maybe not to the extent of the video but close enough.He would be a lock for the Norris every year and would contend for the Art Ross.

Natural talent is natural talent.Also body structure (including feet, leg, backbone and neck structure), which is largely a genetic lottery and is crucial for mobility and skating technic.This is why a guy like Bobby Hull is still stronger than 99% of NHLers despite having no modern training and the likes.

It’s not an optical illusion. Most bottom six caliber players from the 90’s would not make the NHL today, never mind the bloody 60’s.
 

Butch 19

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May 12, 2006
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Is no one going to mention how weak the goalies and defense was back then? And the skating? LOL - have you ever seen more standing around on the ice?

That is screamed in every Gretzky thread, yet Orr played against players 10x worse than Gretzky ever played against.
 
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BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
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It’s not an optical illusion. Most bottom six caliber players from the 90’s would not make the NHL today, never mind the bloody 60’s.

Wrong.Bottom-6ers in the O6 era were vastly superior players than bottom-6ers from today, because the league was small.

It happened that a player stuck on Montreal's bottom 6 for a few years became a star once traded elsewhere.
 

Turin

Registered User
Feb 27, 2018
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25,281
Wrong.Bottom-6ers in the O6 era were vastly superior players than bottom-6ers from today, because the league was small.

It happened that a player stuck on Montreal's bottom 6 for a few years became a star once traded elsewhere.

Oh lord.
 

Lazlo Hollyfeld

The jersey ad still sucks
Mar 4, 2004
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It's really not that brutal. Tube skates, the sticks and the goalie equipment were entirely different. The players didn't slack. Today's game was simply impossible.
Exactly.

For some perspective people should try strapping on tube skates and using a wood stick from the 70s. It took more strength to handle the puck and was more tiring. The reason guys from that era didn't stick handle like Patrick Kane wasn't simply because they were lazy out of shape beer leaguers.

Then take a turn in goal with leather pads that soaked up water like a sponge. Goalie equipment size was self limiting because it got so heavy.

Players today have better training and coaching from a young age, especially now that the NHL is a multi-billion dollar industry. But people still seem to underestimate how big of a role technology played.
 

TDotMassive

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Jul 13, 2018
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Orr generally played in one of the weakest talent pools in league history. Right after the biggest expansions in history, but just before the Americans, Russians and Euros really started entering the league. Not to say Orr wasn't great, because he was, and is arguably the best D ever, however... he was playing in a very seriously diluted league.
 

Raccoon Jesus

Todd McLellan is an inside agent
Oct 30, 2008
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I get what people are saying re: talent pool and equipment correction, but...

The hockey back then was way weaker for sure but one thing to consider was who actually played professionally. The players were not well paid. Today the competition is very stiff for the top jobs. The difference between NHL and other pro leagues is quite large, so that makes players compete hard.

Today's athletes are not more athletic, they just tap more of their athletic potential.

While I also agree with this, people often suggest that the above would close the 'average' player with Orr, but fail to take into account what would Orr have done with access to the same things? How much faster would he be skating? Shooting? Modern knee surgery? The guy is insanely head and shoulders over everyone else on the ice, even the star players. I don't buy that he'd 'just' be Crosby, Karlsson.
 

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