So after 09-10, are Crosby and Ovie in the HoH top 100 yet?

tarheelhockey

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Crosby has had Gonchar and plays with Malkin on the PP, but at ES he lines up with some "meh" players.

Not to mention people talk about Guerin like he's an AHL scrub. It wasn't that long ago he was a perennial All-Star, speed skating champion, 40-goal scorer, not to mention probably the best player on the Islanders. Had he lost a step, yeah, but it was a step down from being really damn good.
 

BraveCanadian

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Then you know the argument against. For anyone else, some elite playmakers seem to be able to put up their points no matter who plays with them (Lemieux, Thornton, Jagr, etc). I can see both Crosby and Ovechkin in this category since they both seem to completely dominate the game when on the ice. OV finished 3rd in league scoring as a rookie in 05-06 with nothing of note to work with. Crosby has had Gonchar and plays with Malkin on the PP, but at ES he lines up with some "meh" players.

You don't think Crosby might fit into the "gets his points regardless" category? In the Olympics I didn't notice any jump in his overall play.

It depends on what the argument is..

If you are saying that they will still produce at a certain level no matter who they are with, I agree.

If you are saying that they would produce at the same level regardless of who they play with or how they fit into a team system.. I definitely disagree.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Nobody suggests Backstrom is the only reason Ovechkin puts up points...clearly, he's about a 50 goal, 100 point scorer either way. But when you compare the two biggest stars in the game today, one plays on a regular line with an elite pivot tailor-made for his success, and the other plays with a rotating cast of glorified 2nd liners (sometimes not even that).

Does anyone want to make the claim that Kunitz and Guerin/Dupuis are anywhere close to Backstrom and Knuble/Semin? If Crosby were complemented by someone who fit his game as well as Backstrom fits Ovie, like Zach Parise, would his totals not get a decent bump?

It's a discrepancy that should be taken into consideration - as much consideration as is given Ovechkin's relative lack of help in the playoffs.

Crosby played with better players for their first 3 years, Ovechkin for their last two. I don't think it's been a huge difference in all, as of yet.
 

markrander87

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Im just curious, what are peoples thoughts on Ovechkin playing in the very very weak Southeast division? Do you think his point totals against teams like Florida and Atlanta get inflated because he gets more games against weaker competition.

It would be interesting to see the % of points Ovie gets against teams in his division Compared to Crosby and those exact same teams in the Southeast division.

GA finishes last season:

Florida 244
Atlanta 256
Carolina 256
Tampa Bay 260

New Jersey 191
New York 218
Philadelphia 225
Islanders 264
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

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Im just curious, what are peoples thoughts on Ovechkin playing in the very very weak Southeast division? Do you think his point totals against teams like Florida and Atlanta get inflated because he gets more games against weaker competition.

It would be interesting to see the % of points Ovie gets against teams in his division Compared to Crosby and those exact same teams in the Southeast division.

See post 134. Over the last 3 years, Ovechkin's totals against the Southeast are almost exactly the same as against the rest of the league.

People also forget just how badly Crosby beat up the Flyers each and every game before they went out and got themselves Chris Pronger. And while the Devils and Rangers have always had strong goaltending better than average team defense during this time, the Islanders have always been a joke.
 

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Crosby played with better players for their first 3 years, Ovechkin for their last two. I don't think it's been a huge difference in all, as of yet.

Ovechkin has for sure had better linemates the last 3 years. Crosby has never had a regular linemate the quality of 69 point Backstrom in 07-08. Even if he was a rookie.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Ovechkin has for sure had better linemates the last 3 years. Crosby has never had a regular linemate the quality of 69 point Backstrom in 07-08. Even if he was a rookie.

In 07-08, Crosby played with 106 point Evgeni Malkin on the PP. I believe that was the last year they still saw odd shifts together at even strength, but it might have been the previous year. Either way, just seeing time on the PP with 106 point Malkin, backed up by 65 point Gonchar was significantly more help than Ovechkin seeing regular time in the second half of the season with 69 point Backstrom, backed up by 56 points Mike Green.

One of the reasons everyone raved about Ovechkin's 07-08 season so much was that he did it all on his own.

It probably isn't a big edge either way, but there's no way that 69 point Backstrom was helping Ovechkin's totals more than a 106 Malkin was helping Crosby, even if they were just playing together on the PP.
 

Dipsy Doodle

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In 07-08, Crosby played with 106 point Evgeni Malkin on the PP. I believe that was the last year they still saw odd shifts together at even strength, but it might have been the previous year. Either way, just seeing time on the PP with 106 point Malkin, backed up by 65 point Gonchar was significantly more help than Ovechkin seeing regular time in the second half of the season with 69 point Backstrom, backed up by 56 points Mike Green.

One of the reasons everyone raved about Ovechkin's 07-08 season so much was that he did it all on his own.

It probably isn't a big edge either way, but there's no way that 69 point Backstrom was helping Ovechkin's totals more than a 106 Malkin was helping Crosby, even if they were just playing together on the PP.

Crosby played a partial season with Malkin and Gonchar on the PP, which was all of 5 spots ahead of Washington's. I wouldn't say that's comparable to playing a full year with a 70 point player who's perfectly tailored to your game attached to your hip.

However, since that time Ovechkin has had a clear, canyon-esque advantage in linemates. Not "1/4 season of end-of-the-line Lemieux and 1/2 season of Palffy vs. Zubrus and Clark" advantage, but "full seasons of elite linemates vs. occasionally adequate top 6 players" advantage.
 

matnor

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In 07-08, Crosby played with 106 point Evgeni Malkin on the PP. I believe that was the last year they still saw odd shifts together at even strength, but it might have been the previous year. Either way, just seeing time on the PP with 106 point Malkin, backed up by 65 point Gonchar was significantly more help than Ovechkin seeing regular time in the second half of the season with 69 point Backstrom, backed up by 56 points Mike Green.

One of the reasons everyone raved about Ovechkin's 07-08 season so much was that he did it all on his own.

It probably isn't a big edge either way, but there's no way that 69 point Backstrom was helping Ovechkin's totals more than a 106 Malkin was helping Crosby, even if they were just playing together on the PP.

I think this deserves some numbers. The following is a list of the top 3 players that collaborated on a Crosby/OV point each season:

Ovechkin

Season|Player|Points collaborated|Share
2005-2006
|Zubrus|40|37.7%
|Heward|17|16.0%
|Halpern|17|16.0%
2006-2007
|Zubrus|36|39.1%
|Semin|26|28.3%
|Clark|22|23.9%
2007-2008
|Bäckström|37|33.0%
|Kozlov|29|25.9%
|Green|25|22.3%
2008-2009
|Bäckström|45|40.9%
|Green|28|25.5%
|Semin|27|24.5%
2009-2010
|Bäckström|56|51.4%
|Knuble|28|25.7%
|Green|26|23.9%

Total
|Bäckström|138|26.1%
|Semin|88|16.6%
|Green|84|15.9%

Crosby

Season|Player|Points collaborated|Share
2005-2006
|Palffy|23|22.5%
|Gonchar|23|22.5%
|Recchi|20|19.6%
|Armstrong|20|19.6%
2006-2007
|Recchi|44|36.7%
|Malkin|38|31.7%
|Gonchar|35|29.2%
2007-2008
|Malkin|32|44.4%
|Gonchar|27|37.5
|Armstrong|16|22.2%
2008-2009
|Malkin|53|51.5%
|Letang|15|14.6%
|Satan|14|13.6%
2009-2010
|Malkin|30|27.5%
|Guerin|26|23.9%
|Gonchar|23|21.1%

Total
|Malkin|153|30.2%
|Gonchar|116|22.9%
|Recchi|68|13.4%

Of course it's not clear how these number should be interpreted. Time together on ice might also be a factor. All in all I guess it seems like Malkin and Bäckström have similar effects (or at least they have similar points shares) on Crosby's and Ovechkin's point totals.
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

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Crosby played a partial season with Malkin and Gonchar on the PP, which was all of 5 spots ahead of Washington's. I wouldn't say that's comparable to playing a full year with a 70 point player who's perfectly tailored to your game attached to your hip.

Am I reading this wrong, or are you using the fact that Crosby played a partial season due to injuries he himself suffered as a point in Crosby's favor?

Edit, and the tool you posted earlier shows that over 30% Crosby's ice time in 2007-08 was with Malkin.

http://www.dobberhockey.com/frozenp...10:P:99&Submit=Show+Line+Combinations&sent=go
 
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matnor

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Crosby played a partial season with Malkin and Gonchar on the PP, which was all of 5 spots ahead of Washington's. I wouldn't say that's comparable to playing a full year with a 70 point player who's perfectly tailored to your game attached to your hip.

That season, as can be seen above, Bäckström had 37 points together with Ovechkin (33% of OV's points). Malkin had 32 points with Crosby (44% of Sid's points). This seems to indicate that OV didn't get significantly more help than Crosby.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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I think this deserves some numbers. The following is a list of the top 3 players that collaborated on a Crosby/OV point each season:

Ovechkin

Season|Player|Points collaborated|Share
2005-2006
|Zubrus|40|37.7%
|Heward|17|16.0%
|Halpern|17|16.0%
2006-2007
|Zubrus|36|39.1%
|Semin|26|28.3%
|Clark|22|23.9%
2007-2008
|Bäckström|37|33.0%
|Kozlov|29|25.9%
|Green|25|22.3%
2008-2009
|Bäckström|45|40.9%
|Green|28|25.5%
|Semin|27|24.5%
2009-2010
|Bäckström|56|51.4%
|Knuble|28|25.7%
|Green|26|23.9%

Total
|Bäckström|138|26.1%
|Semin|88|16.6%
|Green|84|15.9%

Crosby

Season|Player|Points collaborated|Share
2005-2006
|Palffy|23|22.5%
|Gonchar|23|22.5%
|Recchi|20|19.6%
|Armstrong|20|19.6%
2006-2007
|Recchi|44|36.7%
|Malkin|38|31.7%
|Gonchar|35|29.2%
2007-2008
|Malkin|32|44.4%
|Gonchar|27|37.5
|Armstrong|16|22.2%
2008-2009
|Malkin|53|51.5%
|Letang|15|14.6%
|Satan|14|13.6%
2009-2010
|Malkin|30|27.5%
|Guerin|26|23.9%
|Gonchar|23|21.1%

Total
|Malkin|153|30.2%
|Gonchar|116|22.9%
|Recchi|68|13.4%

Of course it's not clear how these number should be interpreted. Time together on ice might also be a factor. All in all I guess it seems like Malkin and Bäckström have similar effects (or at least they have similar points shares) on Crosby's and Ovechkin's point totals.

Thanks for doing this. From these charts, it's pretty clear that Ovechkin had more help than Crosby in 2009-10... and that was it!
 

Dipsy Doodle

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Am I reading this wrong, or are you using the fact that Crosby played a partial season due to injuries he himself suffered as a point in Crosby's favor?

Edit, and the tool you posted earlier shows that over 30% Crosby's ice time in 2007-08 was with Malkin.

http://www.dobberhockey.com/frozenp...10:P:99&Submit=Show+Line+Combinations&sent=go

Yep, he played a decent portion of time with Malkin that year.

I have no problem admitting that Ovechkin had the superior '07-'08 regular season regardless, but Crosby's injury and his early return makes it seem like a much wider gap than it was. When Crosby got hurt, he was actually leading the league in scoring.
 

Dipsy Doodle

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Thanks for doing this. From these charts, it's pretty clear that Ovechkin had more help than Crosby in 2009-10... and that was it!

Uh, did you happen to see the respective 2nd and 3rd biggest helpers in '08-'09?

Restricting the argument to only Backstrom is misleading, to say the least.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Yep, he played a decent portion of time with Malkin that year.

I have no problem admitting that Ovechkin had the superior '07-'08 regular season regardless, but Crosby's injury and his early return makes it seem like a much wider gap than it was. When Crosby got hurt, he was actually leading the league in scoring.

Right, Crosby was leading the scoring race by a small amount over Lecavalier when he got injured, IIRC. Ovechkin didn't really explode until the last month or two of the season.

In my opinion, Crosby has never recovered the speed he had before that ankle injury.
 

Dipsy Doodle

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Right, Crosby was leading the scoring race by a small amount over Lecavalier when he got injured, IIRC. Ovechkin didn't really explode until the last month or two of the season.

In my opinion, Crosby has never recovered the speed he had before that ankle injury.

Definitely agree. Sid's been fast enough, but he doesn't blitz past people like he did in '06-'07.

He said he was going to work on his step this off-season though, so if history's any indication...
 

Infinite Vision*

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Right, Crosby was leading the scoring race by a small amount over Lecavalier when he got injured, IIRC. Ovechkin didn't really explode until the last month or two of the season.

In my opinion, Crosby has never recovered the speed he had before that ankle injury.

Upon just recently watching a Pittsburgh game from November 2005, he actually appeared to be faster than he is now.
 

Unaffiliated

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I think this deserves some numbers. The following is a list of the top 3 players that collaborated on a Crosby/OV point each season:

Ovechkin

Season|Player|Points collaborated|Share
2005-2006
|Zubrus|40|37.7%
|Heward|17|16.0%
|Halpern|17|16.0%
2006-2007
|Zubrus|36|39.1%
|Semin|26|28.3%
|Clark|22|23.9%
2007-2008
|Bäckström|37|33.0%
|Kozlov|29|25.9%
|Green|25|22.3%
2008-2009
|Bäckström|45|40.9%
|Green|28|25.5%
|Semin|27|24.5%
2009-2010
|Bäckström|56|51.4%
|Knuble|28|25.7%
|Green|26|23.9%

Total
|Bäckström|138|26.1%
|Semin|88|16.6%
|Green|84|15.9%

Crosby

Season|Player|Points collaborated|Share
2005-2006
|Palffy|23|22.5%
|Gonchar|23|22.5%
|Recchi|20|19.6%
|Armstrong|20|19.6%
2006-2007
|Recchi|44|36.7%
|Malkin|38|31.7%
|Gonchar|35|29.2%
2007-2008
|Malkin|32|44.4%
|Gonchar|27|37.5
|Armstrong|16|22.2%
2008-2009
|Malkin|53|51.5%
|Letang|15|14.6%
|Satan|14|13.6%
2009-2010
|Malkin|30|27.5%
|Guerin|26|23.9%
|Gonchar|23|21.1%

Total
|Malkin|153|30.2%
|Gonchar|116|22.9%
|Recchi|68|13.4%

Of course it's not clear how these number should be interpreted. Time together on ice might also be a factor. All in all I guess it seems like Malkin and Bäckström have similar effects (or at least they have similar points shares) on Crosby's and Ovechkin's point totals.
Posts like this are the reason I signed up for HFBoards.
Great Job :handclap:
 

SidGenoMario

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Apr 10, 2009
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In my opinion, Crosby has never recovered the speed he had before that ankle injury.


Absolutely. It's truly heartbreaking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuKakc-l-Nw

You'll never see any of those ^ plays again. But still, I feel like the 2010 Crosby was better than the 07 Crosby. Scoring garbage goals is as important as making highlight reel plays, and he's improved in every other aspect of the game.
 

overpass

Registered User
Jun 7, 2007
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Definitely agree. Sid's been fast enough, but he doesn't blitz past people like he did in '06-'07.

He said he was going to work on his step this off-season though, so if history's any indication...

The funny thing is that Crosby scored over half his points on the power play in '06-'07, and only finished 10th in even strength points. Since then, he's improved as an even strength player and scorer, even if he's lost a step. So if he gets that step back and the Penguins can put together a power play one of these years...
 

God Bless Canada

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Ovechkin definitely has more help from his regular linemates than Crosby, and it's been that way for most of the last three seasons. Actually watching the game will tell you that. Ovechkin works with Backstrom and Green, and, occasionally, Semin. (Although I think Semin's better off on the second line with Laich than the top line). And Ovechkin plays in the perfect situation - on a team coached by Bruce Boudreau. It's probably the most offensively aggressive system in the league. All of those gunners have the green light.

Washington's never going to win the Stanley Cup playing the way that they do, or with the team make-up that they have, but it's fun hockey to watch.

With the exception of playing with Hossa late in 2008 and in the 2008 playoffs, Crosby hasn't had that natural winger who can keep up with him. Guerin in 2002 would have been an awesome linemate for Sid the Kid. Crosby would be a 120-130-point player with 2002 Bill Guerin. Guerin in 2010 was out of place on a line with Crosby. Kunitz is a terrific complimentary guy, but Crosby doesn't have a linemate that's near his level of hockey. Playing Crosby with Malkin, outside of the power play, remains a last resort, a desperation tactic for the Pens. Unless Jordan Staal suddenly discovers an aptitude for playing the wing, we're going to have to see Crosby do what he did last year: carry his linemates on his back, shoot the puck more, and beat teams by scoring goals, instead of setting them up.

Pittsburgh's 1-2-3 punch down the middle is one of the best the game has seen since Beliveau-H. Richard-Backstrom dominated for the Habs in the 60s. Jordan Staal's an opportunity and a high-quality linemate from being a 70-80 point player. (He has hovered around 50 playing with Tyler Kennedy. One of the best third lines in the league, but Staal deserves better). But we saw it against Montreal in the playoffs. The Habs really keyed on the Pens centres, who generate all of their offence, and forced Pittsburgh's wingers to beat them. We'll see if teams are able to do the same thing during the regular season.

After about the one-third point in the season last year (once Malkin and Gonchar returned from injuries, and teams couldn't completely load up on Crosby), Crosby was heads and shoulders the best player in the league last year. He should have won league MVP. He carried that Pittsburgh team on his back for a lot of last season.

But there's no doubt about it: since Boudreau took over the Caps a quarter of the way through the 2007-08 season, Ovechkin has had the better supporting cast, and the better system, to produce offence.

As for the OP's question: that's a very good question. You're looking at two guys who have been playing at a very, very high level since they entered the league, and they have done a lot. Ovechkin has the individual accolades, but there's an old adage: you can't be viewed as the best player in the game until you win something. He's certainly one of the top 15-20 LWs ever. Crosby has both the individual accolades and the team success. Captained a team to the Cup. Won an Olympic gold medal.

Top 100 in NHL history? Distinct possibility. Top 100 when you incorporate pre-NHL and international guys? Probably not yet.
 

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