So after 09-10, are Crosby and Ovie in the HoH top 100 yet?

[SidGenoMario]

Why is it ridiculous? Because you say it is? I'm tired of this crap. You're just a Penguin's homer and you think because you say something everyone has to buy it. I'm ridiculous, I'm not logical, I don't understand, I don't even read what you said ( because I disagree with it). Didn't think I'd ever do this, but you're my first "ignore".

..alright?

EDIT: Still don't know how my level of Pens fandom is relevant when I'm merely discussing whether or not it's fair to judge players based entirely on their trophy cases.

Which, by the way, it isn't.

 

[unknown33]

Ask any GM who they'd choose to win them more hockey games.

Nice facts.

Guess you have to change the whole HoH top 100 list and adjusted them to how GMs would pick players.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I think logic and reason in lloking at the stats, both counting and adjsuted and articles and the context of the hockey being played in certain years and leagues have to come into play with all our discussions here.

I think most people here look at almsot everything when they evaluate players but everyone does have a certain bias, it's only natural, and probably gives more or less weight in some areas than others than the next guy does.

Crosby has had more playoff sucess, SC and more counting stats, and is pretty close in the regular season as well, except for goals to AO.

Some guys will give this more weight than others but I think as long as guys don't get to carried away and say things like it's not even close, or stuff like that, then these discussons are very interesting and maybe some guys will see things in a new light.

 

[seventieslord]

Nice facts.

Guess you have to change the whole HoH top 100 list and adjusted them to how GMs would pick players.

Whatever point you're trying to make is lost on me, sorry. If you have a problem with the list feel free to complain about it in the appropriate thread.

 

[MrBoxOffice]

Crosby's cup ring > 100 Ovechkin regular season trophies

That's how I feel about it anyways.

I honestly could give a flying **** about regular season trophies. Congratulations Mr. Ovechkin you successfully pillaged the treacherous south east division again. well done sir.

 

[seventieslord]

Crosby's cup ring > 100 Ovechkin regular season trophies

That's how I feel about it anyways.

I honestly could give a flying **** about regular season trophies. Congratulations Mr. Ovechkin you successfully pillaged the treacherous south east division again. well done sir.

LOL. So true.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

I thought one of Crosby's wingers (Iginla) did 90% of the work on Crosby's OT goal. I honestly don't give Crosby too much credit for the 2010 Olympics, when he invisible for pretty much the entire tournament, until Iginla fed him a pass that left him basically alone in front.

Look carefully

It is pretty much the other way around. Crosby did 90% of the work. He got the puck in the defensive zone, he rushed it up ice, he battled 4 men and won the puck, pushed it back to Iginla, called for it, then scored.

Saying Iggy did "90% of the work" is revisionnist history. Iggy made a great pass but without Crosby's work, they play isn't there to be made.

Sorry for the crappy video but it is the only one I found which shows all the sequence.

 

[BostonAJ]

Are Ted Lindsay Awards valid points in this debate? Unfortunately, they don't release the complete voting results, which I assume are very close. The players called Crosby the best player in the world in 06-07, and declared Ovechkin the best from 07-10. Only Gretzky, Lemieux, and Lafleur have won the award three times. Again, I'll bet the voting was close.

In Hart voting Ovechkin keeps the lead (1,1,2,6,22) vs (1,3,6,17,24). But I think it's important to remember that Crosby is a year younger. Also Crosby has changed his game a bit - until last year he wasn't thought of as an elite goal scorer. That curved stick seems to be doing him well.

Their different positions are important, too. A center has more opportunity (and responsibility) to dictate the play more than a winger. A great center will get more assists than a great winger. But a great center can be more valuable than a great winger.

Combined with the Art Rosses and Richard's these two have collected you have a resume that beats a number of players in and fan's top 100 list, tho with only 5 years in the league there would be plenty of arguments to listen to. We all remember the mistake THN made with Lindros with their top 100 list. I'd still feel comfortable putting them with the players listed in the 70-80 range, and barring a disaster know they'll be climbing a lot higher. Talent-wise, I'd put them with Jagr.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Crosby's cup ring > 100 Ovechkin regular season trophies

That's how I feel about it anyways.

I honestly could give a flying **** about regular season trophies. Congratulations Mr. Ovechkin you successfully pillaged the treacherous south east division again. well done sir.

In 2009-10, Ovechkin had 29 points in 19 games versus the Southeast Division, or 1.53 points per game. He had 80 points in 53 games against other teams, or 1.51 points per game.

In 2008-09, Ovechkin had 42 points in 24 games against the division, or 1.75 points per game. He had 68 points in 55 games against other teams, or 1.23 points per game.

In 2007-08, Ovechkin had 39 points in 32 games against the division, or 1.22 points per game. He had 73 points in 50 games against other teams, or 1.46 points per game.

Overall during his three Pearson/Lindsay winning seasons? 110 points in 75 games versus the division for 1.47 points per game. 221 points in 158 games versus other teams for 1.44 points per game.

I fail to see a trend of "pillaging" the Southeast division, relative to other opponents.

I'm using the splits at yahoo.

 

[Epsilon]

Crosby's cup ring > 100 Ovechkin regular season trophies

That's how I feel about it anyways.

I honestly could give a flying **** about regular season trophies. Congratulations Mr. Ovechkin you successfully pillaged the treacherous south east division again. well done sir.

So then clearly Crosby is also behind say, Pavel Datsyuk, who has twice as many Cup rings. Since each of them is worth more than 100 Crosby regular season trophies.

 

[ContrarianGoaltender]

Crosby's cup ring > 100 Ovechkin regular season trophies

That's how I feel about it anyways.

I honestly could give a flying **** about regular season trophies. Congratulations Mr. Ovechkin you successfully pillaged the treacherous south east division again. well done sir.

Yeah, well I don't care about who played with better teammates. Congratulations Mr. Crosby you successfully managed to play more games on the superior team, a team good enough to beat the Detroit Red Wings in their home rink in a Stanley Cup Final game 7 when you played only 9:59 and weren't on the ice for any of the goals.

To be honest I'd rather have Crosby on my team, but there's a legitimate argument that Ovechkin has had a better career so far. The whole playoff thing for Ovechkin is way overblown. For example, in playoff games with their teams facing elimination, Ovechkin has better numbers than Crosby:

Crosby: 7 GP, 6 pts, -1
Ovechkin: 9 GP, 11 pts, +5

 

[tarheelhockey]

In 2009-10, Ovechkin had 29 points in 19 games versus the Southeast Division, or 1.53 points per game. He had 80 points in 53 games against other teams, or 1.51 points per game.

In 2008-09, Ovechkin had 42 points in 24 games against the division, or 1.75 points per game. He had 68 points in 55 games against other teams, or 1.23 points per game.

In 2007-08, Ovechkin had 39 points in 32 games against the division, or 1.22 points per game. He had 73 points in 50 games against other teams, or 1.46 points per game.

Overall during his three Pearson/Lindsay winning seasons? 110 points in 75 games versus the division for 1.47 points per game. 221 points in 158 games versus other teams for 1.44 points per game.

I fail to see a trend of "pillaging" the Southeast division, relative to other opponents.

I'm using the splits at yahoo.

How many times does this have to be proven and re-proven before people catch on?

 

[Dissonance]

Not to detract from yet another Crosby v. Ovechkin thread, but getting back to the original poster's question, I'd be curious to know how people here rank both players vis-a-vis, say, Andy Bathgate, who's #56 on the HOH list.

Bathgate had nine elite seasons, while Crosby and Ovechkin have each had five, but the latter two have--arguably--had higher peaks. (The Hart records are already very comparable.) I'm not sure I'd object if anyone ranked Crosby or Ovechkin ahead of Bathgate right now (though I'd feel better about it if OV had a few deeper playoff runs first). But maybe that's too premature.

 

[unknown33]

LOL. So true.

False.

Ovechkin scored only 10 of his goals against division rivals.

Crosby scored 5 goals (in half the games excluding Caps) and Stamkos 14

In 2009-10, Ovechkin had 29 points in 19 games versus the Southeast Division, or 1.53 points per game. He had 80 points in 53 games against other teams, or 1.51 points per game.

In 2008-09, Ovechkin had 42 points in 24 games against the division, or 1.75 points per game. He had 68 points in 55 games against other teams, or 1.23 points per game.

In 2007-08, Ovechkin had 39 points in 32 games against the division, or 1.22 points per game. He had 73 points in 50 games against other teams, or 1.46 points per game.

Overall during his three Pearson/Lindsay winning seasons? 110 points in 75 games versus the division for 1.47 points per game. 221 points in 158 games versus other teams for 1.44 points per game.

I fail to see a trend of "pillaging" the Southeast division, relative to other opponents.

I'm using the splits at yahoo.

 

[BraveCanadian]

False.

Ovechkin scored only 10 of his goals against division rivals.

Crosby 19 and Stamkos 14

No sense letting facts get in the way!

I think individually at this point Ovechkin and Crosby are almost a toss up.

Ovechkin has improved his overall play and so has Crosby.

It is going to take another 5 years before we'll know who was better at the end of the day.

And only by that time will we know if they really belong in the top 100 players of all time. They are both off to outstanding starts but just starts.. not careers.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Not to detract from yet another Crosby v. Ovechkin thread, but getting back to the original poster's question, I'd be curious to know how people here rank both players vis-a-vis, say, Andy Bathgate, who's #56 on the HOH list.

Bathgate had nine elite seasons, while Crosby and Ovechkin have each had five, but the latter two have--arguably--had higher peaks. (The Hart records are already very comparable.) I'm not sure I'd object if anyone ranked Crosby or Ovechkin ahead of Bathgate right now (though I'd feel better about it if OV had a few deeper playoff runs first). But maybe that's too premature.

At first blush I would definitely put Crosby ahead of Bathgate and probably Ovechkin too. Even having much shorter careers to date, they've both rung up comparable award totals while being the faces of not only the league but the hockey world in general.

Also, THN has Bathgate #58 all-time.

 

[nik jr]

LOL. So true.

not true, and a similar argument can be used vs crosby.


in 16 games in '10 vs NYI, TML and NYR...

crosby scored about 35% of his points and about 40% of his goals (including 3g, 2a, 5p, +4 vs valiquette, who allowed 8g).

crosby was +18 vs those 3 teams, but -3 vs all other teams.

 

[unknown33]

No sense letting facts get in the way!

I think individually at this point Ovechkin and Crosby are almost a toss up.

Ovechkin has improved his overall play and so has Crosby.

It is going to take another 5 years before we'll know who was better at the end of the day.

And only by that time will we know if they really belong in the top 100 players of all time. They are both off to outstanding starts but just starts.. not careers.

While I'm slightly in favour of Ovechkin considering all 5 years combined Crosby was better/improved a lot in 09/10 and will likely end up as the better player when it's all said and done.

Still I'm sick of the false claims like Ovechkin puts his points up because he's playing with Bäckström, padds his stats against easy Divsion rivals and is a playoff chocker (#3 only on the main board).


People should criticises Ovi for thing he really messed up like getting two game misconducts and his two game suspension rather than for stuff they made up.

A last thing to add to the hilarious 'Ovechkin piles up points againts bad teams' argument

09/10 Regular Season VS Playoff Teams

Crosby
GP 40 G 18 A 24

Ovechkin
GP 33 G 26 A 26

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

not true, and a similar argument can be used vs crosby.


in 16 games in '10 vs NYI, TML and NYR...

crosby scored about 35% of his points and about 40% of his goals (including 3g, 2a, 5p, +4 vs valiquette, who allowed 8g).

crosby was +18 vs those 3 teams, but -3 vs all other teams.

The Southeast argument against Ovie's totals are bogus, but anybody trying to say that Crosby pads his stats against a weak Atlantic division is barking up the wrong tree. Contrary to the Southeast, the Atlantic has been anything but a pushover division over the past few years.

Maybe Crosby's more cerebral game lends itself to better dissecting an opponent the more he sees them, and Ovie's "force of nature" style gets more familiar when faced 6-8 times over the regular season.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

While I'm slightly in favour of Ovechkin considering all 5 years combined Crosby was better/improved a lot in 09/10 and will likely end up as the better player when it's all said and done.

Still I'm sick of the false claims like Ovechkin puts his points up because he's playing with Bäckström, padds his stats against easy Divsion rivals and is a playoff chocker (#3 only on the main board).


People should criticises Ovi for thing he really messed up like getting two game misconducts and his two game suspension rather than for stuff they made up.

Nobody suggests Backstrom is the only reason Ovechkin puts up points...clearly, he's about a 50 goal, 100 point scorer either way. But when you compare the two biggest stars in the game today, one plays on a regular line with an elite pivot tailor-made for his success, and the other plays with a rotating cast of glorified 2nd liners (sometimes not even that).

Does anyone want to make the claim that Kunitz and Guerin/Dupuis are anywhere close to Backstrom and Knuble/Semin? If Crosby were complemented by someone who fit his game as well as Backstrom fits Ovie, like Zach Parise, would his totals not get a decent bump?

It's a discrepancy that should be taken into consideration - as much consideration as is given Ovechkin's relative lack of help in the playoffs.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Does anyone want to make the claim that Kunitz and Guerin/Dupuis are anywhere close to Backstrom and Knuble/Semin? If Crosby were complemented by someone who fit his game as well as Backstrom fits Ovie, like Zach Parise, would his totals not get a decent bump?

I agree with you fully, but this is not true according to some of the hockey historians around here.

I've had this argument several times, believe me.

It's pretty funny.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I agree with you fully, but this is not true according to some of the hockey historians around here.

I've had this argument several times, believe me.

It's pretty funny.

All anyone has to do is watch games of Guerin foil rush after rush and chance after chance last season to realize it.

It was downright comical.

 

[BraveCanadian]

All anyone has to do is watch games of Guerin foil rush after rush and chance after chance last season to realize it.

It was downright comical.

Agreed. Linemates, teammates, coaching, systems etc. are all fairly large factors in even an elite player's (like Crosby) production.

 

[BostonAJ]

I agree with you fully, but this is not true according to some of the hockey historians around here.

I've had this argument several times, believe me.

Then you know the argument against. For anyone else, some elite playmakers seem to be able to put up their points no matter who plays with them (Lemieux, Thornton, Jagr, etc). I can see both Crosby and Ovechkin in this category since they both seem to completely dominate the game when on the ice. OV finished 3rd in league scoring as a rookie in 05-06 with nothing of note to work with. Crosby has had Gonchar and plays with Malkin on the PP, but at ES he lines up with some "meh" players.

You don't think Crosby might fit into the "gets his points regardless" category? In the Olympics I didn't notice any jump in his overall play.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Crosby's cup ring > 100 Ovechkin regular season trophies

That's how I feel about it anyways.

I honestly could give a flying **** about regular season trophies. Congratulations Mr. Ovechkin you successfully pillaged the treacherous south east division again. well done sir.

Kirk Maltby is 4 times the player Crosby is.