Size comparison of metropolitan areas with at least one major league team

[PCSPounder]

Xolo de Tijuana is not a MLS team but a club in Mexico. I don't think it should be listed by San Diego.

So these markets have serious linkage (for instance, recent reports about Americans who work in San Diego and have taken residence in Tijuana because the cost of housing is considerably lower) and there's a soccer league bigger than MLS located in the conglomeration.

It matters.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

So these markets have serious linkage (for instance, recent reports about Americans who work in San Diego and have taken residence in Tijuana because the cost of housing is considerably lower) and there's a soccer league bigger than MLS located in the conglomeration.

It matters.

Clearly that's how most San Diegans can afford to get down.

No, Xolos should not count.

 

[garbageteam]

He could've actually just copy and pasted this pretty well structured list and saved some compilation work:

List of American and Canadian cities by number of major professional sports franchises - Wikipedia

Outdated population numbers though.

 

[93LEAFS]

London offers much a much bigger stadium. Wembley in London is 90,000 and the biggest in Canada is the Olympic Stadium in Montréal which is well under 60,000. There are only 8 home games, so 30,000 seats is a gigantic difference. London is the banking center of Europe, although with Brexit that may end so the corporate support from Toronto would be good but possibly not as good as London. London metro area also has more people than the entire population of Ontario. They have an established population of local fans that have sold out the NFL games played there in minutes.

Mexico City offers North America's second largest metro area at more than 20 million people and the Azteca Stadium set the NFL attendance record set in 1994 with something like 110,000 people. There was a turf issue a few years ago that took the wind out of the sails slightly, but with 20 million people, it's a huge market.

London yes, Mexico City is a novelty. There is never any interest in going there full time for a variety of issues. Mainly, playing in that stadium should be considered a health hazard, and two, while Mexico City has 20 million people the average yearly household income is $10, 000 USD. Azteca is also insanely outdated for how NFL teams build their stadiums now, with a heavy emphasis on high-end luxury suites to attract businesses to buy boxes.

As for London. A lot of the ticket sales have shown to be people traveling into London for a one-off event for the year, which is questionable on how that will up-hold over an 8 game season, especially going against the premier league and the rest of the league playing between 7pm and 7am on Sundays. Also, Tottenham stadium is much more amenable to the interests of an NFL team.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

I'd like to see MLS cities added just to show where markets like Austin and Salt Lake City fit in the mix. And yes, the San Francisco and Raleigh markets missing big chunks of their "real-life" market numbers is dumb, even if technically MSA accurate

I mean at least for Raleigh MSA isn't even technically accurate. The line between Durham and Raleigh can get pretty blurry and given the amount of sprawl it's highly likely that despite being in Durham I'm closer to PNC Arena than someone who counts towards Raleigh's population.

 

[93LEAFS]

I'd like to see MLS cities added just to show where markets like Austin and Salt Lake City fit in the mix. And yes, the San Francisco and Raleigh markets missing big chunks of their "real-life" market numbers is dumb, even if technically MSA accurate

Did you just forget about the Utah Jazz? Salt Lake City is listed.

As for Austin, Austin like San Antonio has a very sizable primary-statistical-area that compares to Dallas and Houston, but a significantly smaller MSA and don't have CSA's. Austin likely would be a great city to finally get an NBA/MLB/NHL team, given the wealth, the companies in the tech industry with a significant presence there, and growing population. It has similar things going for it that Nashville and Columbus have (state capitals, large university presence) with arguably better demographics business-wise due to the tech sector presence.

 

[dkitson16]

Both CSA and MSA are based on entire County populations for the county/counties with the core city (cities) and the surrounding counties based on commuting ties. I think MSA is based on a 25% commuting rate and CSA only requires 15%.

No population measurement will be a perfect measurement for sports franchises and all will have flaws. But if someone quotes only core city population - ignore that it's completely useless.

When talking about people available to watch a game Urban Areas (UA) and Metropolitan Areas (MSA) are most useful. CSA less useful given the huge distances they often cover.

Examples of flaws.

BOth the UA and MSA of Miami include Palm Beach County, far to the north.

San Jose is a separate UA and MSA from San Francisco-Oakland (SFO) but parts of SFO such as Santa Clara where the 49'ers play are closer to downtown San Jose than the core cities in SFO.

In Raleigh's case PNC Arena is so close to the bordering MSA it's probably a more reflective number.

Raleigh MSA 1,362,540 (2018)
Raleigh-Durham CSA 2,238,315 (2018)

 

[edog37]

Eh... I disagree with that Pittsburgh number. What are they defining as a "metropolitan area"?

It’s correct per the US Census Bureau...
Pittsburgh-New Castle-Weirton, PA-OH-WV Combined Statistical Area - Wikipedia

 

[SupremeNachos]

All I see are states who gave into owners and ones who didn't.

 

[Hasbro]

Did you just forget about the Utah Jazz? Salt Lake City is listed.

You just made that up.

A team in Utah called the Jazz? You're not even trying.

 

[End on a Hinote]

Montreal and Vancouver are very under-represented in the major sports. Should see at least another MLB and NBA team in Canada. Montreal should have one of each, Vancouver should have one.

Vancouver especially, total joke they lost the NBA. They would not only succeed today but flourish given its population surge in the last two years and Asian population.

Although Vancouver's population seems a little high at 2.7 million. When I googled it it came up as approx 2.4 million. Still very underserved though considering Pittsburgh and Cleveland are around that same size and both have 3 of the big 4.

 

[93LEAFS]

Vancouver especially, total joke they lost the NBA. They would not only succeed today but flourish given its population surge in the last two years and Asian population.

Although Vancouver's population seems a little high at 2.7 million. When I googled it it came up as approx 2.4 million. Still very underserved though considering Pittsburgh and Cleveland are around that same size and both have 3 of the big 4.

Very few cities the size of Vancouver have both the NBA and NHL, because more than the other 2 leagues they tend to directly compete against each other. The smallest MSA to have an NHL and NBA team are Minneapolis and Denver at 3.6m and 2.9m, with both regions having massive local TV regions due to being in fairly isolated regions of the United States. It could work if they came back, but they'd be the smallest market to have both and while Vancouver has significant wealth, the cost of living hurts disposable income and the dollar can cause issues. If they do come back, they need to get the Grizzlies name back and Memphis can be something else like the Hornets getting their name back.

The NFL is just different and hardly comparable to the other 3 sports. Player's salaries are essentially fully covered by the TV Deals, and the 8 games a year is hardly a commitment compared to 41 of the NBA and 81 of MLB for season ticket holders. People will drive hours for 1 game a week, 8 times a year compared to what they are committed to doing for the other 3 leagues.

 

[Wolf357]

Wow Winnipeg really is a little fish in the middle of a vast sea of emptiness .
Winnipeg’s Population of 754,000 it’s small on its own. But what’s really astonishing is that Winnipeg is a little island of Population.
To the North it’s a Boreal Forest until you get to Tundra...literally nothing until you get to a decent size town Thompson Manitoba (475 miles away) population about 13,000.
To the East again nothing but forest until you get to Kenora 131 miles population about 15,000
To the west you got Brandon at 132 miles population 48,000.
For a actual Metro area you have Minneapolis/St.Paul at 390 Miles,
Saskatoon 441 miles, And Milwaukee at 645 Miles.
And Winnipeg supports a crazy amount of hockey teams, a NHL team, a AHL team, a WHL team, and a MJHL team

 

[BKIslandersFan]

I think Green Bay and Winnipeg are only two places on that list that doesn’t have direct flight to New York.

 

[Andy6]

Wow Winnipeg really is a little fish in the middle of a vast sea of emptiness .
Winnipeg’s Population of 754,000 it’s small on its own. But what’s really astonishing is that Winnipeg is a little island of Population.
To the North it’s a Boreal Forest until you get to Tundra...literally nothing until you get to a decent size town Thompson Manitoba (475 miles away) population about 13,000.
To the East again nothing but forest until you get to Kenora 131 miles population about 15,000
To the west you got Brandon at 132 miles population 48,000.
For a actual Metro area you have Minneapolis/St.Paul at 390 Miles,
Saskatoon 441 miles, And Milwaukee at 645 Miles.
And Winnipeg supports a crazy amount of hockey teams, a NHL team, a AHL team, a WHL team, and a MJHL team

True, although this rather overstates the amount of “forest” in the immediate vicinity of Winnipeg.

Other places are accustomed to going elsewhere, to some other city an hour away, to access sports and entertainment. In Winnipeg, someone either makes it happen in the city itself or we miss out.

 

[Bookie21]

I'd like to see MLS cities added just to show where markets like Austin and Salt Lake City fit in the mix. And yes, the San Francisco and Raleigh markets missing big chunks of their "real-life" market numbers is dumb, even if technically MSA accurate

Can't add MLS cities to the list....it is for the major pro leagues only. MLS is a glorified minor league farm system. Last I checked it was about the 18th best league in the world

 

[PCSPounder]

Can't add MLS cities to the list....it is for the major pro leagues only. MLS is a glorified minor league farm system. Last I checked it was about the 18th best league in the world

Atlanta and Seattle draw an awful lot for minor league teams, no? The economic impact is becoming a thing.

We can argue whether that affects, say, the Texas teams (their announced attendance massively fails the eye test), but you're starting to get markets where the expensive tickets are comparing to club seats for NBA/NHL.

If you really want to analyze markets, I can see 6-8 MLS teams NOT being included. Also at least 2 NHL teams. The Rays are questionable, and some NBA teams should be questioned as well.

 

[Rigafan]

London yes, Mexico City is a novelty. There is never any interest in going there full time for a variety of issues. Mainly, playing in that stadium should be considered a health hazard, and two, while Mexico City has 20 million people the average yearly household income is $10, 000 USD. Azteca is also insanely outdated for how NFL teams build their stadiums now, with a heavy emphasis on high-end luxury suites to attract businesses to buy boxes.

As for London. A lot of the ticket sales have shown to be people traveling into London for a one-off event for the year, which is questionable on how that will up-hold over an 8 game season, especially going against the premier league and the rest of the league playing between 7pm and 7am on Sundays. Also, Tottenham stadium is much more amenable to the interests of an NFL team.

Tottenham's stadium in London was actually built with the NFL London team in mind, you can read about it - Tottenham Hotspur Stadium - Wikipedia It's facilities were also built to house NFL squads as well.

I understand the talk of "how will they cope having to fill the stadium for 8 home games" but for the logistics it should be an issue.

The Toronto Wolfpack rugby team manager to cope, which much less budgets and support. They play in the English Rugby league Toronto Wolfpack - Wikipedia

 

[garbageteam]

Can't add MLS cities to the list....it is for the major pro leagues only. MLS is a glorified minor league farm system. Last I checked it was about the 18th best league in the world

Actual roster quality is one thing (they're probably closer to 12-13 league-wise, according to transfermarkt), but there's no denying the top MLS team valuations and fan interest overlap with the lower end of the NHL's team valuations, and for that reason alone the two leagues should be part of the same discussion.

 

[kaiser matias]

I think Green Bay and Winnipeg are only two places on that list that doesn’t have direct flight to New York.

Edmonton doesn't, but YEG doesn't have flights to a lot of places.

 

[cutchemist42]

I'm not huge on the NFL, but what do those cities offer that Toronto doesn't?

Almost all of my buddies are huge NFL fans. There's a major passion for the league here. Do London and Mexico City have a well established NFL fanbase already?

You kinda made the argument yourself. Whereas the NBA needed the Raptors in Canada to create value from the Canadian market....the NFL has already made millions off of Canada without even needing to operate a team there. It's actually a goal a lot of sport leagues would want.....markets watching that actually dont have established teams. It avoids the expenses of setting up shop.

You likely need an NFL team in London or Mexico City though to drive interest there. It's the same argument everyone uses here for Souther expansion.....southern cities need teams to be interested in hockey.

I think you can safely say the NFL is never coming to Toronto...they simply have bigger fish to fry.

 

[smitty10]

You kinda made the argument yourself. Whereas the NBA needed the Raptors in Canada to create value from the Canadian market....the NFL has already made millions off of Canada without even needing to operate a team there. It's actually a goal a lot of sport leagues would want.....markets watching that actually dont have established teams. It avoids the expenses of setting up shop.

You likely need an NFL team in London or Mexico City though to drive interest there. It's the same argument everyone uses here for Souther expansion.....southern cities need teams to be interested in hockey.

I think you can safely say the NFL is never coming to Toronto...they simply have bigger fish to fry.

My uncle has a buddy who's a high up in a huge property developer in Toronto. This guy's company and the city want to demolish the Rogers Centre and build offices/condos (Rogers only owns the building, the city owns the land). Apparently the idea is to build a new MLB stadium and an NFL stadium side-by-side down by The Docks.

We'll see if it comes to fruition.

 

[cutchemist42]

My uncle has a buddy who's a high up in a huge property developer in Toronto. This guy's company and the city want to demolish the Rogers Centre and build offices/condos (Rogers only owns the building, the city owns the land). Apparently the idea is to build a new MLB stadium and an NFL stadium side-by-side down by The Docks.

We'll see if it comes to fruition.

No one is rich enough in Toronto though to do it. Tanenbaum already couldnt afford it 5 years ago and the NFL openly said their cheap bid was bad. The price has only likely gone up since then.

It still comes down to why the NFL would need Toronto.

 

[smitty10]

No one is rich enough in Toronto though to do it. Tanenbaum already couldnt afford it 5 years ago and the NFL openly said their cheap bid was bad. The price has only likely gone up since then.

It still comes down to why the NFL would need Toronto.

To fully capitalize on the Canadian market. There are many NFL fans already, that number will grow massively if they put a team here.

Also, there are definitely people who can afford a team. Tanenbaum and MLSE aren't the be all and end all in Toronto sports. The Rogers family is a big player, the Thomson's own the Winnipeg Jets, Bell Media is heavily involved in pro sports, etc. It's whether or not they want to get involved and can get a deal together.

 

[Puckclektr]

My uncle has a buddy who's a high up in a huge property developer in Toronto. This guy's company and the city want to demolish the Rogers Centre and build offices/condos (Rogers only owns the building, the city owns the land). Apparently the idea is to build a new MLB stadium and an NFL stadium side-by-side down by The Docks.

We'll see if it comes to fruition.

I think the only way an NFL team works in toronto is if the Bills move. Realistically to keep both fans happy a stadium around the 407 near Burlington might work well if buffalo struggled. Similar to what the Pats do between Boston and Providence.