Should Vegas blowing a 3-0 lead in the 3rd period of Game 7 last year get more attention?

[Ace Card Bedard]

Yeah this is my take as well. There's bad calls that cost you a goal, there's missed calls that can have an impact...but a phantom 5 minute major in a Game 7? Unheard of. That's why Vegas tends to get a bit of a pass from people. Outside of a 5-minute span that was the creation of terrible officiating, Vegas beat San Jose 4-0. This is one of those rare times where a bad call truly 100% decided a hockey game and unfortunately it was a Game 7.

It wasn't a phantom call.
He got crosschecked off the draw and lost his balance while falling into another player resulting in his head hitting the ice.
Every ref in the world makes that call.

 

[bobholly39]

Normally I agree with you. Heck, I am a Leaf fan and I don't use 1993's non-call on Gretzky as an excuse. We still had opportunity to win in Game 7. However...........if there was one time in hockey history that a ref's bad call changed the fortunes of a game it is this one. I have never seen a bad call do this worse in NHL history than this one. It was horrendous. The reason being, this is the 3rd period of a Game 7 and your team is up 3-0. That call just reversed the fortunes immediately of two teams. There was no Game 8 to make it up. And this wasn't even just a one-goal game either. One goal games you can probably point to different things throughout the game where you can say "Well, maybe that team shouldn't have been in that situation to begin with." Not with this case. The Knights were up 3-0, they had done everything right that game, it was a perfect scenario.

No one denies that this was as big and critical a turning point as you describe. Whether for game 7 or a series - yes it directly is what led to the tide turning.

However - Vegas shouldnt get a pass because they still let in 3 goals. If it was a 1 goal game - sure blame the refs all you want. You can still blame them here - but losing a 3 goal lead is 100% on vegas. It was a big choke job

 

[Cursed Lemon]

There have been many bad major penalty calls in history. None of them resulted in four goals being scored in a game 7. It's a notorious moment.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

It wasn't a phantom call.
He got crosschecked off the draw and lost his balance while falling into another player resulting in his head hitting the ice.
Every ref in the world makes that call.

Neither ref on the ice showed any indication a penalty was going to be called until they saw a guy laying injured on the ice. Guys get abused during faceoffs all the time, especially in the playoffs when the whistles get put away. That's the one and only time I ever recall a major penalty being called for a faceoff scrum, and it was way after the fact. I don't care about either team...but the refs choked badly in that situation. Handing out a major on a play none of them actually thought was a penalty when it initially happened? It was unprecedented as far as I can recall.

 

[Big Phil]

It wasn't a phantom call.
He got crosschecked off the draw and lost his balance while falling into another player resulting in his head hitting the ice.
Every ref in the world makes that call.

Every ref makes, maybe, a 2-minute minor call on that one. That's about it. It is what it should have been.

No one denies that this was as big and critical a turning point as you describe. Whether for game 7 or a series - yes it directly is what led to the tide turning.

However - Vegas shouldnt get a pass because they still let in 3 goals. If it was a 1 goal game - sure blame the refs all you want. You can still blame them here - but losing a 3 goal lead is 100% on vegas. It was a big choke job

It wasn't pretty of course, but the first goal went in right away from the faceoff. All of the sudden you are down two goals and STILL have almost an entire 5 minute power play to put in more. The term "wind out of your sails" applies here. Yes the penalty killing could have been better and perhaps Fleury of all people after what he had done the previous year should have made a clutch stop but basically what we are looking at is a game where a bad call was the difference between one team easily beating the other and that same team needing to scratch and claw just to get it to overtime. It was bad for the game. San Jose also had that hand pass for an overtime goal against St. Louis two rounds later that should have been blown dead immediately. How this team didn't win the Stanley Cup with those blatant calls (and non-calls) going in their favour just shows you how cursed this franchise truly is.

 

[Ace Card Bedard]

Every ref makes, maybe, a 2-minute minor call on that one. That's about it. It is what it should have been.



It wasn't pretty of course, but the first goal went in right away from the faceoff. All of the sudden you are down two goals and STILL have almost an entire 5 minute power play to put in more. The term "wind out of your sails" applies here. Yes the penalty killing could have been better and perhaps Fleury of all people after what he had done the previous year should have made a clutch stop but basically what we are looking at is a game where a bad call was the difference between one team easily beating the other and that same team needing to scratch and claw just to get it to overtime. It was bad for the game. San Jose also had that hand pass for an overtime goal against St. Louis two rounds later that should have been blown dead immediately. How this team didn't win the Stanley Cup with those blatant calls (and non-calls) going in their favour just shows you how cursed this franchise truly is.

Disagree with the bolded.
Bad calls happen.

Vegas' awful PK was the difference. They let in 4 goals.

 

[Big Phil]

Disagree with the bolded.
Bad calls happen.

Vegas' awful PK was the difference. They let in 4 goals.

Okay that's fine, I don't disagree that their PK still should have done that. It was bad, no doubt. I am just saying let us pretend there is no call, or even a 2 minute minor. Does Vegas lose their minds then? Or is it likely that it is a 3-0 or maybe even 3-1 or 4-1 (empty netter) game? You have to factor in that this is more than likely what happens without that bad call. What Gallant should have done is call a time out immediately after that first goal. I can't remember if he did or not, but he should have, if anything just to calm the troops down.

It reminds me a bit of the 1985 St. Louis Cardinals. Game 6 World Series. Bottom of the 9th they are up one run and three outs away from winning a World Series. First base umpire Don Denkinger made a bad call at first base for what should have been the first out. It was not pretty, there was plenty of time for him to react to see that was an out. It wasn't one of these things where years later you realize that the player was out by 1/100 of a second. Anyway, St. Louis lost their minds after that, then there was a pop fly that the catcher and the first baseman, Jack Clark dropped because neither of them called for it. It ended with Kansas City scoring two runs that inning. Game 7 it was 11-0 for Kansas City.

To an extent Denkinger cost St. Louis a World Series. Now, they did have a chance to finish that inning and they did have a Game 7 so the Vegas thing is worse I think. I don't know, I just remember last year cheering for Vegas because I just didn't want that sort of blackmark on a win. No hockey fan wants that, even for a team they aren't cheering for.

 

[Ace Card Bedard]

Okay that's fine, I don't disagree that their PK still should have done that. It was bad, no doubt. I am just saying let us pretend there is no call, or even a 2 minute minor. Does Vegas lose their minds then? Or is it likely that it is a 3-0 or maybe even 3-1 or 4-1 (empty netter) game? You have to factor in that this is more than likely what happens without that bad call. What Gallant should have done is call a time out immediately after that first goal. I can't remember if he did or not, but he should have, if anything just to calm the troops down.

It reminds me a bit of the 1985 St. Louis Cardinals. Game 6 World Series. Bottom of the 9th they are up one run and three outs away from winning a World Series. First base umpire Don Denkinger made a bad call at first base for what should have been the first out. It was not pretty, there was plenty of time for him to react to see that was an out. It wasn't one of these things where years later you realize that the player was out by 1/100 of a second. Anyway, St. Louis lost their minds after that, then there was a pop fly that the catcher and the first baseman, Jack Clark dropped because neither of them called for it. It ended with Kansas City scoring two runs that inning. Game 7 it was 11-0 for Kansas City.

To an extent Denkinger cost St. Louis a World Series. Now, they did have a chance to finish that inning and they did have a Game 7 so the Vegas thing is worse I think. I don't know, I just remember last year cheering for Vegas because I just didn't want that sort of blackmark on a win. No hockey fan wants that, even for a team they aren't cheering for.

You lose me at the bolded part. Denkinger did not cost St. Louis a World Series. He made a bad call. The Cards' response was what cost them the series.
Similar to the Bartman incident for the Cubs as they were leading 3-0 in the 8th inning of Game 6. If the Cubs don't implode after that play, they likely go on to win the game and play in the World Series. Instead they completely fell apart, losing that game and the next ending their season. Only the Cubs are to blame for that.

Game 7 Chi vs Det in 2013. Tie game, under 2 mins left in regulation, Hjalmarsson rips a shot past Howard for the likely series-winning goal but the refs waved it off. Saad got tackled behind the play and for some inexplicable reason the ref decided to stop the play while the Hawks had possession. One of the worst calls I've ever seen in my 40+ years of watching NHL hockey. Did the Blackhawks fall apart? Nope, they shrugged it off and won it in OT.

Compare that to Game 4 of Chi vs Det in 2009. Hawks have a bad call go against them right at the end of the 1st period and they lose it. The 2nd and 3rd periods are penalty-filled and the Wings go on to win 6-1. The call didn't cause the meltdown. Their inexperience did.

I think my point is that bad calls happen, it's the championship caliber teams that can just shrug it off and play on. If a bad call is enough to throw your team into disarray, you're not good enough to win.
Teams have to take ownership of their failures. You can't be blaming a bad call.

 

[LeafsNation75]

It wasn't a phantom call.
He got crosschecked off the draw and lost his balance while falling into another player resulting in his head hitting the ice.
Every ref in the world makes that call.

Pavelski didn't return until Game 7 of the 2nd round against Colorado. So he obviously wasn't faking about being injured on that play.

 

[LeafsNation75]

This whining about the refs is so pathetic, can't stand it, same with Leafs fans still crying about 1993.

Like @Big Phil said Toronto still had Game 7 that year and he's correct. However one major difference is that was in the Conference Finals and Toronto was an overtime goal away from going to the Stanley Cup Final. Plus Toronto was already playing short handed to start the overtime, since Glenn Anderson was given 2:00 for boarding at the 19:47 mark of the 3rd period. So it's the fact that Gretzky clearly high sticked Gilmour and there is the footage of him skating around the ice knowing he's guilty and he scores just after that on the power play the Kings were already on.

 

[Big Phil]

Like @Big Phil said Toronto still had Game 7 that year and he's correct. However one major difference is that was in the Conference Finals and Toronto was an overtime goal away from going to the Stanley Cup Final. Plus Toronto was already playing short handed to start the overtime, since Glenn Anderson was given 2:00 for boarding at the 19:47 mark of the 3rd period. So it's the fact that Gretzky clearly high sticked Gilmour and there is the footage of him skating around the ice knowing he's guilty and he scores just after that on the power play the Kings were already on.

Even watching the footage you can see Gretzky nervously skating around the ice. You see it in his face. It is one of those "Oh........no" types of looks. He knew what happened and he caught a break and when you give Wayne Gretzky a break and a second chance, well, he'll score on you and then get 4 points in the clinching game. The Leafs had an entire game - at home - to rectify it.

You lose me at the bolded part. Denkinger did not cost St. Louis a World Series. He made a bad call. The Cards' response was what cost them the series.
Similar to the Bartman incident for the Cubs as they were leading 3-0 in the 8th inning of Game 6. If the Cubs don't implode after that play, they likely go on to win the game and play in the World Series. Instead they completely fell apart, losing that game and the next ending their season. Only the Cubs are to blame for that.

Game 7 Chi vs Det in 2013. Tie game, under 2 mins left in regulation, Hjalmarsson rips a shot past Howard for the likely series-winning goal but the refs waved it off. Saad got tackled behind the play and for some inexplicable reason the ref decided to stop the play while the Hawks had possession. One of the worst calls I've ever seen in my 40+ years of watching NHL hockey. Did the Blackhawks fall apart? Nope, they shrugged it off and won it in OT.

Compare that to Game 4 of Chi vs Det in 2009. Hawks have a bad call go against them right at the end of the 1st period and they lose it. The 2nd and 3rd periods are penalty-filled and the Wings go on to win 6-1. The call didn't cause the meltdown. Their inexperience did.

I think my point is that bad calls happen, it's the championship caliber teams that can just shrug it off and play on. If a bad call is enough to throw your team into disarray, you're not good enough to win.
Teams have to take ownership of their failures. You can't be blaming a bad call.

This is why I said "to an extent" because it is true no one can blame anyone for losing except the team that lost. That is true. I am just saying that if there was any time in perhaps hockey history where I would say the refs had a hand in a loss it is Game 7 of 2019. It was just ugly because it wasn't even a close game. A better team than Vegas overcomes it of course. The 1977 Montreal Canadiens would have.

As for Bartman, he just got the shaft and it wasn't fair. The Cubs were up 3-0, and that "interference" if you want to call it that still meant they were up 3-0 in the bottom of the 8th with one out. Even so, they lost that game and had Game 7 back at home and had a lead and blew it in that game too. Even their pitcher hit a home run that game and they still lost. Red Sox in 1986 after the Buckner error had Game 7 as well, and even had a strong lead for over half of the game up until the 6th inning. The Mets were better (and personally there was so much in that inning alone in Game 6 that led up to the Buckner play like Schiraldi's pitching and Stanley's wild pitch that Buckner isn't even to blame in that inning let alone from an all-time standpoint).

So I don't disagree with you, a great team overcomes it. Pens in 1992, Avs in 2001, Pens in 2017, all these teams come to mind as Cup winners who had major injuries to a star player yet still won. Red Wings in 1950 for example. All I was saying is just that if there is one game that comes the closest to "the refs cost them the game/series" that I have ever seen in hockey it would be Vegas/San Jose in 2019.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Even watching the footage you can see Gretzky nervously skating around the ice. You see it in his face. It is one of those "Oh........no" types of looks. He knew what happened and he caught a break and when you give Wayne Gretzky a break and a second chance, well, he'll score on you and then get 4 points in the clinching game. The Leafs had an entire game - at home - to rectify it.

That's exactly why I mentioned Gretzky skating around and hoping they would drop the puck for the next faceoff.

Also at that time I was 8 years old and don't remember a lot from that game with the exception of what I have seen in various highlights. Anyway the penalty Glenn Anderson got for boarding at 19:47 of the 3rd period and carried over into the overtime, was it an obvious call that Kerry Fraser had to make, if so how is that any different than not calling Gretzky for the high stick?

Plus if that was another player on the Kings who high sticked Gilmour and it was the exact same way, would Fraser have called a penalty and worst case they be playing 4v4 and most likely Gretzky doesn't score since the faceoff would not have been in the Leafs zone.

 

[ES]

The call was bad but still giving up that many PP goals is unacceptable performance.

 

[HF007]

It should be tbh, bad call or not they gave up 4 goals, in GAME 7

 

[Hynh]

It wasn't a phantom call.
He got crosschecked off the draw and lost his balance while falling into another player resulting in his head hitting the ice.
Every ref in the world makes that call.

It's the definition of a phantom call. No ref was calling anything until Pavelski didn't get up and then they don't even call the right guy. Guessing about what happened = phantom call.

 

[LeafsNation75]

It's the definition of a phantom call. No ref was calling anything until Pavelski didn't get up and then they don't even call the right guy. Guessing about what happened = phantom call.

He was still cross checked and feel to the ice which caused him to get a concussion and not play again until Game 7 of the 2nd round against Colorado. So it's not like he was faking an injury.

 

[Hynh]

He was still cross checked and feel to the ice which caused him to get a concussion and not play again until Game 7 of the 2nd round against Colorado. So it's not like he was faking an injury.

The crosscheck was incidental to the play. When someone says "injured by a crosscheck" the immediate thought is that the crosscheck was to the head/neck or it caused the player to fall into the boards/net. From there the mind moves to back/rib/kidney injuries. No one thinks "his body position was changed so that he collided with another player and then he fell to the ground awkwardly". There was no chance of supplemental discipline despite the graphic nature/severity of the injury in a league that considers the appearance/severity of the injury to be the most important part.

 

[Stephen]

Generally, a lot of people have to care about something before it's a big deal.