Post-Game Talk: Sharks defeat Canadiens 3-1

[Fledgemyhedge]

So much hate for MT here. Not one player really showed up today. And MT made necessary adjustments that I actually agree with, putting Andrighetto with Galchenyuk and Eller, and putting Beaulieu and Subban together. Everyone can hate on DD all they want but the fact of the matter is no one is really stepping up to take the minutes that he's getting.

No one is stepping up but those minutes sure as hell shouldn't be going to DD. Guy has been horrible 1 assist in 10 games gets played more than Galchenyuk who has almost been ppg in 10 games.

 

[Brainiac]

I mean, **** happens. I don't think anyone quit on the coach or that he 'lost the room'. People over use this line.

If I'm a player and my coach plays Desharnais more than Galchenyuk... I stay on board and do what I'm asked to. Galchenyuk is young and all. I can live with that if only for team spirit.

But when that same coach starts playing Desharnais more than Galchenyuk AND Plekanec... I mean... questions need to be asked. I'd say yes, Therrien is slowly but surely losing it. He's blinded by that good start the Desharnais line had and now trying to give them more and more opportunities while what they need is less.

Therrien took a decision. That Desharnais is our first line center (or at least top 6). Plain and simple. He doesn't want to win the cup. He wants to win the cup with DD playing a significant role. It was the same story with Bouillon.

Not trying to be overly harsh toward any of them. Good player and good coach. But for the reasons we know, they can't work together.

 

[OnTheRun]

There's little evidence to suggest they quit on the coach. Just people going to extremes. When he win, life is beautiful. When we lose, it must be the coach's fault.

Bad streaks happen. Chicago had a bad streak with Quennville....then they won the cup...3 times.

I mean, **** happens. I don't think anyone quit on the coach or that he 'lost the room'. People over use this line.

It doesn't mean we are there yet, but it's definitely how it start.

We'll see during the road trip, it could quickly turn into a Carbo's style meltdown (remember that western road trip?) if he actually lost the room.

 

[Brainiac]

It doesn't mean we are there yet, but it's definitely how it start.

We'll see during the road trip, it could quickly turn into a Carbo's style meltdown (remember that western road trip?) if he actually lost the room.

Agreed. That road trip might end up being a blessing in disguise. If a crisis is what we need, the sooner the better.

Seriously guys, this is a good team. Coached by a guy who's clearly losing it. Lines are changing from period to period. A 15 years vet was benched for a mistake, FFS. Desharnais is playing more than Plekanec...

How do you defend that, from a coach's point of view? None of that made any sense.

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

Agreed. That road trip might end up being a blessing in disguise. If a crisis is what we need, the sooner the better.

Seriously guys, this is a good team. Coached by a guy who's clearly losing it. Lines are changing from period to period. A 15 years vet was benched for a mistake, FFS. Desharnais is playing more than Plekanec...

How do you defend that, from a coach's point of view? None of that made any sense.

...the hilarious part is the fact that the games where a Desharnais mistake cost us, he was never benched, demoted, anything...it's soo damn sad that you just have to laugh...

 

[guapo23]

1. The stats on DD ice time are a real eye opener.
The team wins way more and DD produces way more when he plays less minutes.

Then when you compare his production vs Semin, it really boggles the mind.
Semin has acheived offensive numbers that DD never came close to. He gets waived and DD gets more ice time than Plek and Galch.

What the hell is going on?


2. Bergevin

To fix the top 6 he made 2 gambles that did not pay off : Kassian and Semin.
The pressure in on for a real solution.
Make a trade. Deal some picks and a prospect for a legit top6 winger

 

[LyricalLyricist]

If I'm a player and my coach plays Desharnais more than Galchenyuk... I stay on board and do what I'm asked to. Galchenyuk is young and all. I can live with that if only for team spirit.

But when that same coach starts playing Desharnais more than Galchenyuk AND Plekanec... I mean... questions need to be asked. I'd say yes, Therrien is slowly but surely losing it. He's blinded by that good start the Desharnais line had and now trying to give them more and more opportunities while what they need is less.

Therrien took a decision. That Desharnais is our first line center (or at least top 6). Plain and simple. He doesn't want to win the cup. He wants to win the cup with DD playing a significant role. It was the same story with Bouillon.

Not trying to be overly harsh toward any of them. Good player and good coach. But for the reasons we know, they can't work together.

I've always said 2 things. The first being there's more than 1 way to win a cup and the second being DD playing a lot of minutes some games is alright.

Generally speaking I'm okay with Desharnais playing more minutes than Galchenyuk on average but...when Desharnais has had a string of games with more TOI than Plekanec I worry.

Unless Plekanec is banged up a bit and this is the whole reason he dropped to line 3 and so on and so forth I just don't get it. For a game or two? For the random matchup? Sure. A trend is forming though and while I think DD is a good player as you said, I think Plekanec is a better one.

It doesn't mean we are there yet, but it's definitely how it start.

We'll see during the road trip, it could quickly turn into a Carbo's style meltdown (remember that western road trip?) if he actually lost the room.

I don't think MT lost the room or is really close to it.

Of course losing is the start though. Frustration boils over, people point fingers, players start going in different directions and boom, room is lost.

At this point however there's a ******** of leeway with MT because of the record he has this year and previous years. Not to mention Price(our star and true captain) is injured.

It's just a little adversity, nothing huge. I don't think the habs are worried.

Best way I could put it is there's a difference when you get a late paycheck depending on if your bank account is full or empty. When it's full, you can wait a week. When it's empty, it's panic button. At this point habs have enough points that the players aren't in panic mode.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

[mod]
One thing I will argue with the "When DD plays more than X minutes" stuff is it assumes one variable.

For example, if DD's line is on fire and he genuinely plays a fantastic game, earns his ice time and produces while the goals against are scored with other units on the ice you can still lose.

Problem is when DD isn't producing and getting the minutes anyway? That's a problem. I'm all for giving a hot line extra TOI and I do understand that sometimes even a hot line won't produce but look good anyway. In this case however, DD has cooled off, it's rather pointless for them to push up the depth chart at this point in time.

 

[Nynja*]

At this point however there's a ******** of leeway with MT because of the record he has this year and previous years. Not to mention Price(our star and true captain) is injured.

It's just a little adversity, nothing huge. I don't think the habs are worried.

Best way I could put it is there's a difference when you get a late paycheck depending on if your bank account is full or empty. When it's full, you can wait a week. When it's empty, it's panic button. At this point habs have enough points that the players aren't in panic mode.

We were winning just fine while Price was injured for a while...

Then MT goes and switches the lines, putting two bottom 6 grinders in the top 6. He puts the chosen one on the top line with Patch when the chosen one goes cold. He starts punishing the rookies for nothing plays yet his favorites keep getting preferential treatment. Semin gets benched for 3 points in 10 games, and waived for 4 in 15 (3 of those games were 9 min or less, two of which were 7 min or less)...meanwhile Davey had a 3 in 10 stretch and his reward is MORE ice time, and he's now at 4 points in 16 games, where some of these games he even led in ice time.

But sure, we "dont know enough of whats going on in the room to say MT lost the room"...it just so happens that every player on the team hit a slump at the exact same time. But lets presume thats all it is, everyone is slumping at the exact same time...what has MT done to fix it?

 

[G0bias]

One thing I will argue with the "When DD plays more than X minutes" stuff is it assumes one variable.

For example, if DD's line is on fire and he genuinely plays a fantastic game, earns his ice time and produces while the goals against are scored with other units on the ice you can still lose.

As pointed many times, the entire lineup's effectiveness takes a dip each time he and his line starts getting ridiculous minutes, even when he's collecting assists here and there. It's simply not viable.

There's a direct correlation between him getting very high TOI and the team losing, regardless of his point totals. If this season hasn't made it clear enough, the entire 2012 season and every playoff series to date should make that obvious enough.

 

[Nynja*]

For example, if DD's line is on fire and he genuinely plays a fantastic game, earns his ice time and produces while the goals against are scored with other units on the ice you can still lose.

If you're going to throw this out there, you better be prepared to back it up.

But hey, good luck with that. Let me do some ground work for you though so you can get a head start:
Davey has played 14 games where his TOI is 16m or higher, he has one goal in those 14 games, zero assists, that's 0.07 PPG or 1 point in 247.25 minutes (estimated) which is 0.24 P/60 (if I did the math right, I think I did), he is a -5, and the team is 5-6-3.

There are 11 games where Davey had more than 17 minutes of ice time. He still has said 1 goal, his PPG and P/60 go up slightly cause 3 games where he was pointless were removed, he becomes a -4 because he was a -1 in one of those 16-17 min games...but the team record is 3-6-2, or a 0.364 point percentage.

The one game he got a goal in was this one...yet his line was on the ice for the initial goal against (ok it wasnt his line, yet he was out with Patch and Gally lol go figure), and his line got the third goal with 3 minutes to go in the game. Must have been another one of MT's patented hunches...just like he's had a hunch for the past 15 games that "this game is the game Davey gets going", at some point he will probably be right.

Yes, there are probably "other variables" at play...but there is a constant that Davey produces more with less ice time. 15-3-0 when Davey plays less than 16 min, where he has 6G 11A.


MT coaches the way he preached his systems philosophy: take da safe play. In his case, the lineup tinkerings are "da safe play" for him to make. If he puts Byron on the top line and fails "well he wasnt expected to flourish there, but with the injuries, I had to make do with what I had", but if he pans out MT gets to pull his pants up and be all smug like "see I knew Byron was a fit for the top 6".

 

[BlackStar]

After all these years, I know that I should just accept Therrien for what he is: an average coach.

But it is so frustrating to watch Therrien continuously harm the effectiveness of this roster. He seems to be addicted to minimizing our strengths and maximizing our weaknesses. It's mind-boggling.

Much has been said of the plenteous ice-time he gives to Desharnais, even as Desharnais hasn't been producing for about a month now. Why are we overplaying an unproductive Desharnais at a time when we are desperate for more goals? Not coincidentally, I'd argue that one of the reasons for our lack of goalscoring is because our coach thinks that giving plenteous minutes to our struggling and 3rd best center is a better option than giving those minutes to your productive and most talented center in Galchenyuk. Yo be honest, I still find this shocking. I just don't understand how Therrien in his right mind could possibly think that Desharnais deserves more minutes than Galchenyuk. It's almost hilarious, except that it's hurting this team.

As if his usage with Desharnais wasn't bad enough, why in the world is was Wiese playing with Eller and Chucky over Ghetto? Why place Ghetto on the fourth line when he has 4 goals in 10 games? Ghetto fits in very well with Eller and Chucky, why Therrien would choose to disrupt yet another producing line is beyond me. I'm glad that he decided to reunite the line later on in the game, but breaking them up was a stupid move in the first place.

I'm at the point of wanting to give up on expecting good coaching from Therrien. It seems that Desharnais is never going to be treated as a 3rd line player, no matter what Therrien said at the beginning of the season.

Yes, we are missing Gallagher. And that's a big loss. But we are still far more talented than our play would suggest. We have been outshooting and out-chancing teams for that reason. However, when the coach is not putting the right players in the right lines and situations to produce, we are not going to be very effective in producing goals.

Galchenyuk is a better player than Desharnais, when is Therrien going to see that?

 

[SirClintonPortis]

DD's extremely large sample size of games basically has all of the statistical proof he is a rubbish top center. More than half of the time, he will not score in a game. In the games he does score in, which about 30-40 depending on the year, he will have some multi-point games to boost his point totals. Doesn't seem like he can generate multi-point games in the playoffs.

Not to mention, his top end linemate consistently scores 30+goals but they cannot produce like Panarin-Kane, the Sedin twins, etc. That DD point totals are so low given his elite left winger is a black mark of failure on his part to produce given the talent around him.

 

[Brainiac]

Desharnais with Weise and Flash: play them 12 min. a game. with the occasional PP bonus if they're doing well.

Then give the bulk of top 6 min. to Plek/Patches and Galchenyuk/Eller lines. Whoever the wingers on these lines are. If any shuffling needs to be done, it's there.

Just don't try to pry a midget like DD on our first line, please.

 

[pepperMonkey]

Um, did you actually read before responding? There is a tiny word used spelt "if". He said IF DD's line was on fire, if he was playing well, if he was producing, if, while doing so, the goals against were with other lines, etc. He never said DD was doing any of this. What's there to back up? Nothing.

If you're going to throw this out there, you better be prepared to back it up.

Good luck with that

 

[Nynja*]

Um, did you actually read before responding? There is a tiny word used spelt "if". He said IF DD's line was on fire, if he was playing well, if he was producing, if, while doing so, the goals against were with other lines, etc. He never said DD was doing any of this. What's there to back up? Nothing.

Yeah, I read it...there are 15 games where Davey had had 16+ minutes, and in maybe one of them, the one I pointed out, had he "earned his ice time cause DD's line was on fire". The stretch of games where Davey's line was actually legitimately on fire, he was still only getting 15 minutes.

Heres that stretch of games:
12 12 29-046 2015-10-30 MTL @ CGY W 0 2 2 3 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 1 0.0 20 13:48 0 1 9 5 64.3
13 13 29-048 2015-11-01 MTL WPG W 1 2 3 3 0 1 0 0 0 2 0 0 3 33.3 24 15:09 0 0 3 9 25.0
14 14 29-050 2015-11-03 MTL OTT L-OT 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 22 18:44 1 0 8 5 61.5 <- oops, 19 minutes of TOI, thats too much, did nothing, and we lost
15 15 29-052 2015-11-05 MTL NYI W 1 0 1 1 2 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 2 50.0 22 15:24 1 3 4 3 57.1
16 16 29-054 2015-11-07 MTL BOS W 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 2 50.0 24 15:51 0 1 9 8 52.9

Then another 2 pointless games at 16:30 and 15 min (the colorado game where no one showed up), then 2 17+ min games (1W 1L, the one W being the afformentioned game again), then 3 more sub-16 min games (where he had 1G 1A), then a stretch of 6 17+ min games where he was a pointless -5 (but he's earning his ice time, totally), then he finally got bumped down to a 15 min games (where he had an assist in a losing effort)...BAM ICE TIME EARNED, a 16 min pointless game where we won, and a 18+ min pointless night in another losing effort.


This is how you lose the room.

 

[Runner77]

I guess there is no keeping DD debates in a dedicated DD thread, huh?

 

[Nynja*]

I guess there is no keeping DD debates in a dedicated DD thread, huh?

Were discussing how MT possibly lost the room by playing and overplaying his favorite pets, and using stats to show how his actions are detrimental to the team.

How are we supposed to not discuss Davey in here when Davey had the most ice time among C and second most among fowards...again?

 

[Sir Jacques Demers]

Lars Eller on pace for 30 pts, yet somehow on our 2nd line and on our powerplay unit.

Nothing's changed Since: the days of (Hossa ) We're missing an elite player on our top 6.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

We were winning just fine while Price was injured for a while...

Then MT goes and switches the lines, putting two bottom 6 grinders in the top 6. He puts the chosen one on the top line with Patch when the chosen one goes cold. He starts punishing the rookies for nothing plays yet his favorites keep getting preferential treatment. Semin gets benched for 3 points in 10 games, and waived for 4 in 15 (3 of those games were 9 min or less, two of which were 7 min or less)...meanwhile Davey had a 3 in 10 stretch and his reward is MORE ice time, and he's now at 4 points in 16 games, where some of these games he even led in ice time.

But sure, we "dont know enough of whats going on in the room to say MT lost the room"...it just so happens that every player on the team hit a slump at the exact same time. But lets presume thats all it is, everyone is slumping at the exact same time...what has MT done to fix it?

The difference between Semin and DD is obvious. DD has proven himself in the team. Semin couldn't even keep up. Semin had a shorter leash, that much is obvious but he wasn't half as good, don't let point totals fool you.

Other than that, not sure what the post you quoted has to do with your response. MT has leeway because we won earlier on and has a track record with the group. There's no panic button and a lot of that is because there's not the same amount of urgency.

As for what MT is doing, that's what he does behind the scenes. I don't study his practices, his tactics in the room or his video coaching. I don't see what he tells his players nor do I see what the assistant coaches tell him.

One thing is for sure, the guy doesn't WANT to lose, who does? If he had solution...we'd be winning. For now, he doesn't. In an instant, the team may bounce back.

I'm not sure any of this suggests he lost the room though. All you're really suggesting is he's not an elite coach.

As pointed many times, the entire lineup, including DD, suffers as a direct result of his line getting ridiculous minutes. It's simply not viable, even if he's collecting assists here and there.

There's a direct correlation between him getting very high TOI and the team losing. If this season hasn't made it clear enough, the entire 2012 season and every playoff series to date should make that obvious enough.

You know the team wins more when Eller plays less than a certain amount of minutes(I believe it's 15) than when he plays more and yet people insist we should give him and Galchenyuk more TOI. Do they not realize what will happen?

Looking at a TOI as a measure of an entire team performance is a fair metric. Using it as a law is completely ridiculous.

Also, while I agree that DDs playoff performance suck I find it odd you mentioned that as a reason as to why we lost. We went to conference finals and Price got injured, who knows, maybe we would've been a better challenge if it weren't for that.

Of course, people will say "He played too much. We should've played Eller instead" but alas...we can't...have you seen the record when Eller plays more than 15 minutes? It's a never ending cycle isn't it?.

DD, Eller, Mitchell can play 17 minutes for all I care as long as they earn it. That's what it comes down to. DD hasn't earned it nor does he deserve it. When you play a player who is cold more often, you're likely to lose no matter who it is.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

If you're going to throw this out there, you better be prepared to back it up.

Back up what? A hypothetical?

If anything you supported my claim. If DD line is on fire and producing(you literally said they weren't during those games so...thanks) we can still lose due to other lines.

This is what I said:

For example, if DD's line is on fire and he genuinely plays a fantastic game, earns his ice time and produces while the goals against are scored with other units on the ice you can still lose.

Problem is when DD isn't producing and getting the minutes anyway? That's a problem. I'm all for giving a hot line extra TOI and I do understand that sometimes even a hot line won't produce but look good anyway. In this case however, DD has cooled off, it's rather pointless for them to push up the depth chart at this point in time.

This is what you said:

Yeah, I read it...there are 15 games where Davey had had 16+ minutes, and in maybe one of them, the one I pointed out, had he "earned his ice time cause DD's line was on fire". The stretch of games where Davey's line was actually legitimately on fire, he was still only getting 15 minutes.

So yes, Desharnais getting top minutes isn't a problem. DD getting top minutes when he hasn't earned them is.


I'm sure we agree on that and we'll also agree that DD will rarely earn top minutes as well. People focus too much on the number "Oh no, DD played X minutes, we'll lose for sure." No, the problem really is "DD isn't making points and we're giving him more minutes" Promoting ANY player under the circumstance would be bad.

When MT put DD back with Max I called it a "gamble" because that's what it was. It didn't pay off.

 

[pepperMonkey]

Yeah, I read it...there are 15 games where Davey had had 16+ minutes, and in maybe one of them, the one I pointed out, had he "earned his ice time cause DD's line was on fire". The stretch of games where Davey's line was actually legitimately on fire, he was still only getting 15 minutes.

This is how you lose the room.

If you had read it...then READ IT AGAIN!!!! And if you still don't get it...read it again...and again...and again...till you DO get it. There is NOTHING for him to "be ready to back it up". It's there in plain English if you bother to actually read properly. And if you are actually reading it, then you have some massive DD hatred blinders on because you are surely seeing what you want to see instead of seeing what is actually there.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

If you had read it...then READ IT AGAIN!!!! And if you still don't get it...read it again...and again...and again...till you DO get it. There is NOTHING for him to "be ready to back it up". It's there in plain English if you bother to actually read properly. And if you are actually reading it, then you have some massive DD hatred blinders on because you are surely seeing what you want to see instead of seeing what is actually there.

It really didn't require backing up.

All I suggested was the stat was flawed because it assumes one variable when in fact there's dozens if not hundreds.

This is a fact. It is also a fact that DD is not a 1st liner. These two facts can co-exist.

 

[G0bias]

You know the team wins more when Eller plays less than a certain amount of minutes(I believe it's 15) than when he plays more and yet people insist we should give him and Galchenyuk more TOI. Do they not realize what will happen?

Never mentioned Eller in my post... so I don't know why this is suddenly about Eller? I was replying to your opinion of MT's handling of DD.

Also, while I agree that DDs playoff performance suck I find it odd you mentioned that as a reason as to why we lost. We went to conference finals and Price got injured, who knows, maybe we would've been a better challenge if it weren't for that.

No, I said there's a correlation. As in, contributed to our losses. Him and his line has always been ineffective in every series and were part of the reasons why we lost. His high TOI only further hurt our chances.

Of course, people will say "He played too much. We should've played Eller instead" but alas...we can't...have you seen the record when Eller plays more than 15 minutes? It's a never ending cycle isn't it?.

Again, never mentioned Eller. But if you insist on talking about other players, then yes I'd rather MT not play DD more than Plekanec and Galchenyuk.

 

[MaxDummy]

Lars Eller on pace for 30 pts, yet somehow on our 2nd line and on our powerplay unit.

Nothing's changed Since: the days of (Hossa ) We're missing an elite player on our top 6.

Except Eller's on the 3rd line without any significant PP time...