Fistfullofbeer
Moderator
Created a different post in the Martin Jones thread, but for reference, for goalies with more than 800 minutes TOI Jones is dead last in SV%.
Because Jones got beat on a wraparound.You did count a double screen as a stoppable goal for jones because we had this arguement in the game day thread. And if that is even remotely close to your standard as a stoppable goal then i am going to take your data on this stuff with even less then a grain of salt.
Edit: and how is the 3rd goal vs nashville counted as a stoppable goal?
Because if you let one single guy screen you from all the way to there then you have to do a better job.Um, how is a guy screening up high provably the goalie's fault? That seems overly simplistic.
Because if you let one single guy screen you from all the way to there then you have to do a better job.
And with people who excuse every little screen, you gotta do more to battle through the screen as a goalie. You can’t just accept that the goalie keeps getting screened and absolve him of all blame.
Getting screened by one single skater up high is pretty poor.
I’ve never counted a goal as stoppable where there was a maze of player or a guy in front of the goalie though.
You said the same thing with Bernier a few weeks back on the slightest of screens.You also can't have a baseless claim that a screen from whatever arbitrary distance you want to come up with is provably the goalie's fault either. It requires much more context than that.
You said the same thing with Bernier a few weeks back on the slightest of screens.
Did you ever think the reason a goalie like Bernier gets beat on the slightest of screens because Bernier sucks?
You can quibble about the specific line to draw, but as long as the standard is consistent there's at least some value to the results. When they jive so well with the raw stats and the advanced stats, I'm more inclined to believe than not.
Generally this year I feel like people have tried to quibble about a lot of specific goals in an attempt to defend Jones. OK, fine, but when there are THAT many goals where you have to make an excuse for the goaltender and have it "not count", that's a problem in and of itself. That's like when we were in grade school and something "didn't count" because someone "wasn't ready" or whatever. If it happens once or sparingly, fine. When it happens all the time, there's no longer any benefit of the doubt to be given.
Oh I don't think anyone's disputing that. Most Jones 'haters' can acknowledge it's not all on Jones. At least for me, all I want is for Jones defenders to at least acknowledge that he's been bad. He may not be the only problem, but he's been a big part of it. And I just don't see that being admitted very often. Yeah, the only thing left to do is tighten up on team defense and hope Jones doesn't wet the bed. That doesn't mean people are suddenly absolved from representing reality at least somewhat accurately. It really is a horrible position when having Cam Ward's statline would be a massive improvement and people still refuse to put any responsibility on the goaltender.And if the other side has a similar claim about an issue that is happening all the time that is contributing to the issue then the same argument happens. Both things can be true but only one of those things is there something coherent to be done about it at this stage.
Because Jones got beat on a wraparound.
Goaltending 101: clean wraparound goals are BAD goals.
I know it wasn’t exactly clean, but he did the same thing he did on the third goal last game. Overplayed it and got caught out of the net. That’s a bad goal.
It was either the second or third goal against Florida that was also bad. Whatever one went flying past him blocker side from distance. By that Dryden guy. Most of the GDT also didn’t have a problem faulting Jones on that one either.
Don’t worry, Koskinen is right on his back and might pass him in my stoppable goal count soon enough. He’s ripped through the 30’s and into the 40’s the last several starts.
As far as screens go, I think some people are very generous with screens. A guy standing in the corner slightly off to his side and it’s a screen. Or some guy 20-30 feet out is a screen to some people. If something like that is screening the goalie then it’s provably his fault that it screened him.
A maze of players or a guy right in front of the goalie’s face and I won’t count it as stoppable.
And even if you don’t like my list, we still have 56 games worth of .898% goaltending this year from Jones. Those numbers are bad enough.
Oh I don't think anyone's disputing that. Most Jones 'haters' can acknowledge it's not all on Jones. At least for me, all I want is for Jones defenders to at least acknowledge that he's been bad. He may not be the only problem, but he's been a big part of it. And I just don't see that being admitted very often. Yeah, the only thing left to do is tighten up on team defense and hope Jones doesn't wet the bed. That doesn't mean people are suddenly absolved from representing reality at least somewhat accurately. It really is a horrible position when having Cam Ward's statline would be a massive improvement and people still refuse to put any responsibility on the goaltender.
The basic stats are bad, the fancy stats are bad, the eye test is bad.
I haven't smelled the goalies, but I image they smell bad too.
Of course it's not a magical coincidence. I would have thought that was so obvious so as to be perfunctory. But the Sharks aren't the only team in the league that gives up those chances. The Sharks aren't the only uneven ones while everyone else plays to their potential every night. Every goaltender's statistics are affected by the play of the team in front of them. Is it seriously anyone's contention that the spurts of bad San Jose outweigh the consistently bad defense on other teams? For example, Cam Ward faces more than 11 HD shots against *per night*, *on average* at evens. Are we saying that these spurts of bad San Jose outweigh 60 minutes a night, every night of league worst defense, to the tune of a .015 save percentage differential?
We're 70 games in now. His stats are buoyed by the good times just like they're getting hurt by the bad times. And his numbers are flatly unacceptable, bottom line. He's been bad. Of course the team can tighten up around him to hide him and make it work. That's what has to happen, and I think Jones is good enough to make it work too. But make no mistake, that's what this is - the way Jones has played this year, they have to hide him.
If you look at the data I pulled in the other thread, you'll see that Mrazek, Smith, and (surprisingly) Rinne are probably Jones' closest comparables in terms of share of high danger shots vs all shots against. I was shocked to see Rinne facing well over 8 HDSA/60 on not much more volume than Jones sees. Three guesses whether that evened out the stats...
If you look at the data I pulled in the other thread, you'll see that Mrazek, Smith, and (surprisingly) Rinne are probably Jones' closest comparables in terms of share of high danger shots vs all shots against. I was shocked to see Rinne facing well over 8 HDSA/60 on not much more volume than Jones sees. Three guesses whether that evened out the stats...
Someone needs to get Jones a bungee cord. I cringe every time he goes behind the net to handle the puck.
Ok, so now the contention is that San Jose's high danger shots against are so much worse than every other team's that it makes a .897 sv% turn into something resembling league average (.909) goaltending? San Jose has given up 17 extra goals this year over and above even the most putrid defenses in the nhl because their HDSA are especially dangerous? I just don't find that plausible in the slightest.