News Article: Sharks’ goaltending is historically bad for Stanley Cup contender

PattyLafontaine

Registered User
Apr 5, 2006
2,631
931
Rather to the point of this thread. Look at the quality of netminder or lack thereof since DW has been in San Jose.

It’s been mostly a bunch of average and below average netminders. Nabokov had a few good years certainly but his career save pct is average.

After that it’s been one average/mediocre netminder after another.
 

Pinkfloyd

Registered User
Oct 29, 2006
70,391
13,801
Folsom
Rather to the point of this thread. Look at the quality of netminder or lack thereof since DW has been in San Jose.

It’s been mostly a bunch of average and below average netminders. Nabokov had a few good years certainly but his career save pct is average.

After that it’s been one average/mediocre netminder after another.

You can also point to the severe lack in development of netminders and also defensemen. Hell, you can even say the forwards to a certain extent. There's just not what there used to be in terms of internal replacements for really any position.
 

Bleedred

Travis Green BLOWS! Bring back Nasreddine!
Sponsor
May 1, 2011
130,165
57,503
The organization has produced a couple pretty decent goalies in the last 1.5 decades or so in the Doug Wilson era and even one other who while not very good, has managed to have one really good season and has bounced back and forth between the NHL and AHL.

Not that they're starting caliber goalies (even though Greiss has been a capable 1b guy most years, just not here) in the NHL.

Greiss was drafted by the organization in 2004 and has played just about 250 games in the league, Stalock was drafted by the organization in 2005 and has appeared in 111 games in the league. Dell was an undrafted UFA find and he's played over 70 games in the NHL to date. Harri Sateri isn't worth counting, as he only played 9 games at age 28 due to injuries.

It's no Washington Capitals as far as being a goalie factory, but it hasn't been that bad, they just haven't been able to find a legit starter out of it in draft or undrafted UFA signing in 25 years. And that's not a knock, Nabokov was a reliable to very good starter for 10 years here and then they signed Niemi, who was a decent starter for 5 years.

And then there was Kiprusoff and Toskala, but that was like 24 years ago when they were picked and under different regimes. Toskala was a fine backup, but like most backups, they see a regression in save percentage when they go be a starter somewhere and that's what happened to Toskala in Toronto and that was the end of him.
 

Pinkfloyd

Registered User
Oct 29, 2006
70,391
13,801
Folsom
I'm sorry but how is no full fledged starter, 1 1B at his peak, and a backup not bad for 16 seasons of play? That's bad for any team.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ChompChomp

Bleedred

Travis Green BLOWS! Bring back Nasreddine!
Sponsor
May 1, 2011
130,165
57,503
I'm sorry but how is no full fledged starter, 1 1B at his peak, and a backup not bad for 16 seasons of play? That's bad for any team.
Let's go over what teams have drafted a legit starter or signed an undrafted UFA (let's just say homegrown) in the last 15 years and maybe I'll agree with you after breaking it down. Some of this may be skewed by teams that have had a legit starter and their longevity in the league, like the Rangers with Lundqvist, Price with the Canadiens and the Predators with Rinne.

Anaheim - John Gibson this decade. They also found Hiller in the late 00's and Bryzgalov (i think he was their pick?) in the early 00's or late 90's. They're a strong example. Not even factoring in Andersen, who was first drafted by Carolina, before reentering and getting taken a year or two later by Anaheim.

Arizona - Can't remember the last starter they drafted or signed as an undrafted UFA. Might have been in the Winnipeg days. I don't really think Bob Esche counts, as he wasn't a legit starter for long. Usually a platoon guy. They always acquired guys through UFA signing or a waiver pickup like Bryzgalov. Sean Burke, Curtis Joseph, Ilya Bryzgalov, Mike Smith, Antti Raanta, Darcy Kuemper, none of them came from there originally.

Boston - Andrew Raycroft like 20 years ago, who had a ridiculously short shelf life and peak.

Buffalo - Probably Ryan Miller, who was drafted 20 years ago. Enroth wasn't a starter and Ullmark doesn't look like much of one.

Calgary - I can't even remember who they had before Kiprusoff, who didn't come from there, but they've had a bunch of UFA signings like Hiller, Elliott and Smith since then. Rittich is an undrafted UFA, so he's a maybe, but I don't think we can count him as a legit starter just yet.

Carolina - Most people don't realize this, but it was Frederik Andersen, who was originally drafted by them, then re-entered the draft two years later and got picked by Anaheim. Ward in 2002 counts, even though his peak of being good didn't last long.

Chicago - It was actually most recently Antti Niemi as an undrafted UFA signing in 2008 and Crawford before that in the 2003 draft. MAYBE you can count Raanta, who has really only been a starter for one year.

Colorado - Does Peter Budaj from the 2001 draft count? He was a starter there for a couple years. Their most recent guys have both come from Washington.

Columbus - I guess Steve Mason in 2006 or whatever year he was drafted. He was a good starter for one year in Columbus and 2 or 3 others in Philly. Not a long peak though.

Dallas: Marty Turco in 1994. They've usually acquired guys like Belfour, Niemi and Bishop via UFA and Lehtonen via trade.

Detroit: Jimmy Howard in 2003. Mrazek from the 2010 draft for Detroit is a serviceable goalie and had one good season as a legit starter, but I don't see him as a starter. Not even with Carolina right now, do I see him as a legit starter.

Edmonton - It's Dubnyk from 2004.

Florida: Jacob Markstrom is finally looking like a starting goalie. They took him in the 2008 draft.

LA: Jones as an undrafted UFA earlier in the decade. You can also count Bernier in 2006, who was kind of a bust for where he was picked and wasn't a starter for very long. And Quick in 2005. They're probably one of the stronger examples around the league.

Minnesota - Probably Nick Backstrom (the goalie) in 2005 or 2006. I believe he was an undrafted UFA from Europe. Not sure if Harding played enough in any season to really count. They got him in the early 00's. Played really well, but got MS and stopped playing barely into his 30's.

Montreal - Carey Price in 2005.

Nashville - Rinne in 2004. Could be Saros eventually, who was taken earlier in the decade.

New Jersey - Brodeur in 1990.

NYI - Hell if I know? Was it DiPietro in 2000? It was probably DiPietro in 2000. They took guy named Luongo in 1997 too.

NYR - Lundqvist in 2000. They took a couple busts at high picks after that.

Ottawa - Robin Lehner in 2009.

Philadelphia - If it isn't Hart recently then it was probably Hextall in the 80's.:laugh: Or Cechmanek in like 2000.

Pittsburgh - Murray about 5-6 years ago.

San Jose - Kiprusoff like 24 years ago.

St. Louis - Probably Ben Bishop in like 2005. It sure isn't Jake Allen and too early to say yet for Binnington.

Tampa - Vasilevskiy in 2012.

Toronto - Tuukka Rask in 2005.

Vancouver - Schneider in 2004.

Vegas - Incomplete. Only been around two years.

Washington - Holtby in 2008. Could be Grubauer a couple years later. They also drafted Varlamov two years before that.
Vegas - Incomplete: Only two years old and not enough time yet.

Winnipeg - Hellebuyck earlier in the decade.

So I guess I'll concede that as far as starters go, the organization hasn't drafted a goalie who became even a decent starting goalie in 24 years. They've done alright with finding NHL caliber goalies, even if just short term backups, but not starters.

A couple other teams that have drafted a starter in the last 15 years (Carolina, Florida, Ottawa, St. Louis, Toronto) had them become starters for other teams and they didn't find success for the teams they were drafted by.

Anaheim, Chicago and Washington have been the most successful in drafting or signing undrafted legit starters in that time. Calgary and Dallas have both failed to do so as well.

Took me parts of 3 hours to do this and at least 3 computer resets.:laugh:
 

TomasHertlsRooster

Don’t say eye test when you mean points
May 14, 2012
33,360
25,417
Fremont, CA
Let's go over what teams have drafted a legit starter or signed an undrafted UFA (let's just say homegrown) in the last 15 years and maybe I'll agree with you after breaking it down. Some of this may be skewed by teams that have had a legit starter and their longevity in the league, like the Rangers with Lundqvist, Price with the Canadiens and the Predators with Rinne.

Anaheim - John Gibson this decade. They also found Hiller in the late 00's and Bryzgalov (i think he was their pick?) in the early 00's or late 90's. They're a strong example. Not even factoring in Andersen, who was first drafted by Carolina, before reentering and getting taken a year or two later by Anaheim.

Arizona - Can't remember the last starter they drafted or signed as an undrafted UFA. Might have been in the Winnipeg days. I don't really think Bob Esche counts, as he wasn't a legit starter for long. Usually a platoon guy. They always acquired guys through UFA signing or a waiver pickup like Bryzgalov. Sean Burke, Curtis Joseph, Ilya Bryzgalov, Mike Smith, Antti Raanta, Darcy Kuemper, none of them came from there originally.

Boston - Andrew Raycroft like 20 years ago, who had a ridiculously short shelf life and peak.

Buffalo - Probably Ryan Miller, who was drafted 20 years ago. Enroth wasn't a starter and Ullmark doesn't look like much of one.

Calgary - I can't even remember who they had before Kiprusoff, who didn't come from there, but they've had a bunch of UFA signings like Hiller, Elliott and Smith since then. Rittich is an undrafted UFA, so he's a maybe, but I don't think we can count him as a legit starter just yet.

Carolina - Most people don't realize this, but it was Frederik Andersen, who was originally drafted by them, then re-entered the draft two years later and got picked by Anaheim. Ward in 2002 counts, even though his peak of being good didn't last long.

Chicago - It was actually most recently Antti Niemi as an undrafted UFA signing in 2008 and Crawford before that in the 2003 draft. MAYBE you can count Raanta, who has really only been a starter for one year.

Colorado - Does Peter Budaj from the 2001 draft count? He was a starter there for a couple years. Their most recent guys have both come from Washington.

Columbus - I guess Steve Mason in 2006 or whatever year he was drafted. He was a good starter for one year in Columbus and 2 or 3 others in Philly. Not a long peak though.

Dallas: Marty Turco in 1994. They've usually acquired guys like Belfour, Niemi and Bishop via UFA and Lehtonen via trade.

Detroit: Jimmy Howard in 2003. Mrazek from the 2010 draft for Detroit is a serviceable goalie and had one good season as a legit starter, but I don't see him as a starter. Not even with Carolina right now, do I see him as a legit starter.

Edmonton - It's Dubnyk from 2004.

Florida: Jacob Markstrom is finally looking like a starting goalie. They took him in the 2008 draft.

LA: Jones as an undrafted UFA earlier in the decade. You can also count Bernier in 2006, who was kind of a bust for where he was picked and wasn't a starter for very long. And Quick in 2005. They're probably one of the stronger examples around the league.

Minnesota - Probably Nick Backstrom (the goalie) in 2005 or 2006. I believe he was an undrafted UFA from Europe. Not sure if Harding played enough in any season to really count. They got him in the early 00's. Played really well, but got MS and stopped playing barely into his 30's.

Montreal - Carey Price in 2005.

Nashville - Rinne in 2004. Could be Saros eventually, who was taken earlier in the decade.

New Jersey - Brodeur in 1990.

NYI - Hell if I know? Was it DiPietro in 2000? It was probably DiPietro in 2000. They took guy named Luongo in 1997 too.

NYR - Lundqvist in 2000. They took a couple busts at high picks after that.

Ottawa - Robin Lehner in 2009.

Philadelphia - If it isn't Hart recently then it was probably Hextall in the 80's.:laugh: Or Cechmanek in like 2000.

Pittsburgh - Murray about 5-6 years ago.

San Jose - Kiprusoff like 24 years ago.

St. Louis - Probably Ben Bishop in like 2005. It sure isn't Jake Allen and too early to say yet for Binnington.

Tampa - Vasilevskiy in 2012.

Toronto - Tuukka Rask in 2005.

Vancouver - Schneider in 2004.

Vegas - Incomplete. Only been around two years.

Washington - Holtby in 2008. Could be Grubauer a couple years later. They also drafted Varlamov two years before that.
Vegas - Incomplete: Only two years old and not enough time yet.

Winnipeg - Hellebuyck earlier in the decade.

So I guess I'll concede that as far as starters go, the organization hasn't drafted a goalie who became even a decent starting goalie in 24 years. They've done alright with finding NHL caliber goalies, even if just short term backups, but not starters.

A couple other teams that have drafted a starter in the last 15 years (Carolina, Florida, Ottawa, St. Louis, Toronto) had them become starters for other teams and they didn't find success for the teams they were drafted by.

Anaheim, Chicago and Washington have been the most successful in drafting or signing undrafted legit starters in that time. Calgary and Dallas have both failed to do so as well.

Took me parts of 3 hours to do this and at least 3 computer resets.:laugh:

And wouldn’t you agree that that’s a very poor performance from San Jose’s drafting staff over that time frame?
 

Bleedred

Travis Green BLOWS! Bring back Nasreddine!
Sponsor
May 1, 2011
130,165
57,503
And wouldn’t you agree that that’s a very poor performance from San Jose’s drafting staff over that time frame?
After putting a pen and paper to it, I would say it’s one of the worst of the last 25 years, if not the worst.

A few others have also been poor over the last 15 years.

Conclusion is that in the Wilson era, the Sharks have drafted or discovered 3 goalies that have seen significant NHL time, but none have been better than a very good backup/okay one 1b option in Greiss and the other two have been short term tweener backups between the NHL and AHL. And while only Stalock has officially done that, I feel like Dell might not be too far behind in having that happen to him.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RussianShark

Negatively Positive

Mr. Longevity
Mar 2, 2011
10,298
2,202
This is like trying to win a championship with a crappy QB. It's not impossible to win with a terrible QB and goalie but it's damn hard. In football you'd need an amazing defense and solid running game. In hockey you'd need a great defense that can limit chances and the offense to outscore mistakes. Lucky us that our weakness is at the most important position.
 

Lebanezer

I'unno? Coast Guard?
Jul 24, 2006
14,815
10,417
San Jose
This is like trying to win a championship with a crappy QB. It's not impossible to win with a terrible QB and goalie but it's damn hard. In football you'd need an amazing defense and solid running game. In hockey you'd need a great defense that can limit chances and the offense to outscore mistakes. Lucky us that our weakness is at the most important position.
Sounds like the Ravens with Trent Dilfer at the helm.
 

TomasHertlsRooster

Don’t say eye test when you mean points
May 14, 2012
33,360
25,417
Fremont, CA
We're actually not that far off from the Hawks if Karlsson is healthy.

It’s hard to remember now that Karlsson has essentially been out of the lineup since January, but this team is capable of being an absolutely dominant team that can mask their flaws in net and behind the bench and win despite them. They might even be better than that 2010 Hawks team although I would need to refresh my memory on what exactly that team looked like.
 

SabresSharks

Registered User
Oct 2, 2007
6,559
3,156
We're actually not that far off from the Hawks if Karlsson is healthy.
A healthy, playoff-ready Karlsson would make a huge difference. His availability provides so many more options, in all situations.

I'm quite concerned that he'll come back too early, and aggravate his injury, or return rusty, and too late to contribute fully. We're running out of recovery days.

Regardless, we need competent goaltending, at a minimum, and better d-zone coverage. Recent play won't suffice, with or without EK65.
 

SabresSharks

Registered User
Oct 2, 2007
6,559
3,156
It’s hard to remember now that Karlsson has essentially been out of the lineup since January, but this team is capable of being an absolutely dominant team that can mask their flaws in net and behind the bench and win despite them. They might even be better than that 2010 Hawks team although I would need to refresh my memory on what exactly that team looked like.
I recall Niemi being among the most sheltered Cup-winning goalies ever, but he faced 29+ shots/game, and had several 40+ games. I'd take that Niemi over either of our guys the way they're playing now.

Keith, Seabrook, Hjalmarsson, Campbell, Sopel were a superb group during that Cup run. Even with our 2 Norris winners, we don't match that crew, imho.
 

Pinkfloyd

Registered User
Oct 29, 2006
70,391
13,801
Folsom
I recall Niemi being among the most sheltered Cup-winning goalies ever, but he faced 29+ shots/game, and had several 40+ games. I'd take that Niemi over either of our guys the way they're playing now.

Keith, Seabrook, Hjalmarsson, Campbell, Sopel were a superb group during that Cup run. Even with our 2 Norris winners, we don't match that crew, imho.

Burns and Karlsson are better than Keith and Seabrook then. Keith was stellar and Seabrook was great too but Seabrook wasn't Norris caliber like both the Sharks guys. I'd say Vlasic and Hjalmarsson are a wash if not favorable to Vlasic at least the Vlasic of lately. We don't exactly have a Campbell comparison really but I think Dillon has had a comparable year to a guy like Sopel then.
 

Saskatoon

Registered User
Aug 24, 2006
1,961
869
Saskatoon
I am not convinced Jones is an albatross contract yet. Price and Holtby have had down years for example. But it really is starting to look like goalies are going to sink Sharks this year.
 

Sysreq

Registered User
Apr 9, 2015
2,957
1,219
I think Jones has ADHD or something. Some nights he is on, some nights he is a tire fire. Only time will tell which one we get in the playoffs.
 

OffSydes

#tank2014/5
Aug 14, 2011
3,390
2,071
Jones doing better with tons of shots would make sense with ADHD as well. My son has it and his mind can get racing so bad that he forgets what he eats during a meal
 

Patty Ice

Straight to the Banc
Feb 27, 2002
13,882
3,406
Not California
And then there was Kiprusoff and Toskala, but that was like 24 years ago when they were picked and under different regimes. Toskala was a fine backup, but like most backups, they see a regression in save percentage when they go be a starter somewhere and that's what happened to Toskala in Toronto and that was the end of him.

Those were the last students of the late great Warren Strelow. It's no coincidence Sharks' goaltending started coming up short after his passing. I thought Nabby might be able to recapture some of his magic and while I think the jury is still out, it's not looking too hot.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

  • Inter Milan vs Torino
    Inter Milan vs Torino
    Wagers: 5
    Staked: $2,752.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Metz vs Lille
    Metz vs Lille
    Wagers: 3
    Staked: $354.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Cádiz vs Mallorca
    Cádiz vs Mallorca
    Wagers: 3
    Staked: $340.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Bologna vs Udinese
    Bologna vs Udinese
    Wagers: 4
    Staked: $365.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Clermont Foot vs Reims
    Clermont Foot vs Reims
    Wagers: 1
    Staked: $15.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:

Ad

Ad