Shaq vs Kobe: who do you rank higher all time?

[Maestro84]

we'll never see another Shaq again because center is a dead position. today's NBA is a 3 pt shooting contest

Embiid and Jokic are centres and they were top 2 in MVP this year...

Shaq ranks higher imo. They played 8 years as teammates and it was quite clear Shaq was the better player (3 finals MVPs to 0 from Kobe). They only kept Kobe instead in 04 because Mamba was only 26 while Shaq was already 32 and starting to become uncommitted to his playing career

 

[dahrougem2]

I'm not qualified to give a definitive top 10 list since I have no idea if Oscar Robertson was better than James Harden, or if Jokic has become the most evolved player the game has ever seen, and warrants a place on the list because of it

But here's a list of 10 players whose careers began after the 80's that I would rank ahead of Kobe:

D. Robinson
Shaq
Garnett
Duncan
Nowitzki
LeBron
Paul
Durant
Harden
Curry


And if we're putting more of an emphasis on peak play, there are cases to be made that McGrady, Wade, Westbrook, Kawhi, Giannis, Jokic, and Embiid were better than Kobe as well, at least based on regular season play (feel free to push back with any of Kobe's historically great playoff runs if he has any on his resume worth mentioning)

Anyone putting James Harden, Chris Paul, and Dirk Nowitzki ahead of Kobe Bryant immediately loses all credibility.

 

[Neutrinos]

Anyone putting James Harden, Chris Paul, and Dirk Nowitzki ahead of Kobe Bryant immediately loses all credibility.

Why, because you said so?

Well, anyone who values their opinion over statistics has no credibility to begin with

Instead of just making an empty statement, why not add something of substance to the discussion to support your point of view?

It'll be quite the challenge though, since the stats show that Harden, Paul, and Nowitzki all provided more positive value to their respective teams than Kobe did his

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Why, because you said so?

Well, anyone who values their opinion over statistics has no credibility to begin with

Instead of just making an empty statement, why not add something of substance to the discussion to support your point of view?

It'll be quite the challenge though, since the stats show that Harden, Paul, and Nowitzki all provided more positive value to their respective teams than Kobe did his

You are probably the only person in the World that would rank any of those guys ahead of Kobe on an all-time list.

 

[dahrougem2]

Why, because you said so?

Well, anyone who values their opinion over statistics has no credibility to begin with

Instead of just making an empty statement, why not add something of substance to the discussion to support your point of view?

It'll be quite the challenge though, since the stats show that Harden, Paul, and Nowitzki all provided more positive value to their respective teams than Kobe did his

If you can't see the flaws in the "advanced stats" argument of putting James Harden, Chris Paul, and Dirk Nowitzki ahead of Kobe Bryant there is really no conversation to be had with you. You've got your specific statistics, you're going to stick with them come hell or high water, and that's that.

It's the wrong way to think, but you do you.

 

[KallioWeHardlyKnewYe]

Pleased to see the vote is overwhelmingly Shaq. That's my vote.

Nice to see the cult of Kobe isn't as strong here as it is in other corners of the internet.

 

[Neutrinos]

If you can't see the flaws in the "advanced stats" argument of putting James Harden, Chris Paul, and Dirk Nowitzki ahead of Kobe Bryant there is really no conversation to be had with you. You've got your specific statistics, you're going to stick with them come hell or high water, and that's that.

It's the wrong way to think, but you do you.

Again, more empty opinion-based rhetoric directed at my perspective, rather than posting anything of substance to support your own point of view

It's the wrong way to debate, but you do you.

You are probably the only person in the World that would rank any of those guys ahead of Kobe on an all-time list.

Because I'm not swayed by sentimentality or popular opinion

It's one of the perks of intellectual giftedness

 

[dahrougem2]

Again, more empty opinion-based rhetoric directed at my perspective, rather than posting anything of substance to support your own point of view

It's the wrong way to debate, but you do you.



Because I'm not swayed by sentimentality or popular opinion

It's one of the perks of intellectual giftedness

2x Finals MVP
11x All-NBA 1st Team
9x All-NBA Defensive 1st Team

Idgaf what random "advanced" stats you want to bring up, they are irrelevant based on your opinion that JAMES HARDEN was/is better than Kobe Bryant lol.

Intellectual giftedness

 

[StreetHawk]

Pleased to see the vote is overwhelmingly Shaq. That's my vote.

Nice to see the cult of Kobe isn't as strong here as it is in other corners of the internet.

Shaq was just so physically dominant. Could not be stopped aside from constantly fouling him. But he didn’t have the commitment to the craft that Kobe did. Kobe would still excel in today’s nba while shaq would be a lesser player unless his team went against the 3 point trend and pounded the paint with him. And he would become great at kicking the ball out to the open perimeter guys for a 3.

 

[Neutrinos]

2x Finals MVP
11x All-NBA 1st Team
9x All-NBA Defensive 1st Team

Idgaf what random "advanced" stats you want to bring up, they are irrelevant based on your opinion that JAMES HARDEN was/is better than Kobe Bryant lol.

Intellectual giftedness

Those are all voted on awards, they give us nothing of Kobe's actual on-court value, and do nothing to prove he was better than Harden, Paul, and Nowitzki

Yeah, school boards will identify a student as having intellectual giftedness when they score in the top 1 percentile on a provincial-wide standardized test. What, you didn't know that?

 

[dahrougem2]

Those are all voted on awards, they give us nothing of Kobe's actual on-court value, and do nothing to prove he was better than Harden, Paul, and Nowitzki

Yeah, school boards will identify a student as having intellectual giftedness when they score in the top 1 percentile on a provincial-wide standardized test. What, you didn't know that?

Congratulations! How did the rest of your grade-9 PATs go? Were there questions on analytics?

Analytics were created by someone once upon a time. The measurement used was created by human beings. Just as voters have things they prioritize, so too do the analytics creators.

You can believe in analytics all you want. Being in the minority doesn't mean that you're seeing things others aren't in this situation re: Paul, Harden, and Nowitzki. Being in the minority in this situation shows you rely too much on analytics. There is no argument to be made for those players. None whatsoever.

 

[Neutrinos]

Congratulations! How did the rest of your grade-9 PATs go? Were there questions on analytics?

Analytics were created by someone once upon a time. The measurement used was created by human beings. Just as voters have things they prioritize, so too do the analytics creators.

You can believe in analytics all you want. Being in the minority doesn't mean that you're seeing things others aren't in this situation re: Paul, Harden, and Nowitzki. Being in the minority in this situation shows you rely too much on analytics. There is no argument to be made for those players. None whatsoever.

It doesn't matter what I'm seeing, it's what the analytics are showing

Michael Jordan and LeBron James are nearly universally thought to be the 2 best players ever, and the advanced statistics support that

If Kobe Bryant is a top 10 player of all-time, or ahead of players like Harden, Paul, and Nowitzki, why don't those same statistics support that assertion?

So, what's more probable, that your opinion of Kobe is correct, and the many metrics which accurately rank Jordan and LeBron as the 2 best players ever aren't accurate when it comes to Kobe's value, or that your opinion is wrong?

It may be helpful if you put your ego aside before you attempt to answer


Also, it should be noted that I'm arguing that Harden, Paul, and Nowitzki were better in their prime than Kobe was in his, not that they necessarily had betters careers. And by better I mean they had a greater positive impact to their team than Kobe had to his, not that they would beat him in a game of 1-on-1

 

[dahrougem2]

It doesn't matter what I'm seeing, it's what the analytics are showing

Michael Jordan and LeBron James are nearly universally thought to be the 2 best players ever, and the advanced statistics support that

If Kobe Bryant is a top 10 player of all-time, or ahead of players like Harden, Paul, and Nowitzki, why don't those same statistics support that assertion?

So, what's more probable, that your opinion of Kobe is correct, and the many metrics which accurately rank Jordan and LeBron as the 2 best players ever aren't accurate when it comes to Kobe's value, or that your opinion is wrong?

It may be helpful if you put your ego aside before you attempt to answer


Also, it should be noted that I'm arguing that Harden, Paul, and Nowitzki were better in their prime than Kobe was in his, not that they necessarily had betters careers. And by better I mean they had a greater positive impact to their team than Kobe had to his, not that they would beat him in a game of 1-on-1

Again, what you deem to be valuable versus what the extreme majority of fans, pundits, players, coaches, etc deem valuable seems to differ in a major way. You would be ridiculed (and rightfully so) for the takes you've had in this thread re: Kobe vs others.

You can go ahead and spout off all the stats in the world. They are a tool, they are not the means of measurement the way you are attempting to use them. Seems like the one with the ego is the one touting himself as the top 1% and intellectual giftedness, but that's just my opinion.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Also, it should be noted that I'm arguing that Harden, Paul, and Nowitzki were better in their prime than Kobe was in his, not that they necessarily had betters careers. And by better I mean they had a greater positive impact to their team than Kobe had to his, not that they would beat him in a game of 1-on-1

and if we look at VORP and WS in the playoffs, kobe comes out arguably better than those guys.

 

[Neutrinos]

and if we look at VORP and WS in the playoffs, kobe comes out arguably better than those guys.

Those are counting stats

If Kobe has played considerably more playoff games, it stands to reason he'd be ahead

 

[InjuredChoker]

Those are counting stats

If Kobe has played more considerably more playoff games, it stands to reason he'd be ahead

kobe still looks pretty good to me, factoring PO games played. and i'm pretty sure he comes ahead of harden and dirk in RPM/RAPM and wowy's which. perhaps not paul but he's been hurt so much in the playoffs that it can't be ignored.

 

[Neutrinos]

kobe still looks pretty good to me, factoring PO games played. and i'm pretty sure he comes ahead of harden and dirk in RPM/RAPM and wowy's which. perhaps not paul but he's been hurt so much in the playoffs that it can't be ignored.

By all means, share those numbers

I invited someone earlier in the thread to post a historically significant playoff run that Kobe may have had, but they didn't take me up on it

I'm all for new evidence being introduced, even if it's at the expense of my own case

 

[Neutrinos]

Again, what you deem to be valuable versus what the extreme majority of fans, pundits, players, coaches, etc deem valuable seems to differ in a major way. You would be ridiculed (and rightfully so) for the takes you've had in this thread re: Kobe vs others.

You can go ahead and spout off all the stats in the world. They are a tool, they are not the means of measurement the way you are attempting to use them. Seems like the one with the ego is the one touting himself as the top 1% and intellectual giftedness, but that's just my opinion.

You may as well have copied and pasted any of your previous messages, because you just keep saying the same thing over and over and over

At this point, I think it's fair to assume that you have nothing of substance to bring to the discussion, so I'll no longer be engaging with you on the matter


Without a doubt I spout and tout
For added clout throughout our bout
So sure you were, you stayed devout
Even through your logic drought
But in the end it was a rout
It's over now, go pout, I'm out

 

[InjuredChoker]

By all means, share those numbers

I invited someone earlier in the thread to post a historically significant playoff run that Kobe may have had, but they didn't take me up on it

I'm all for new evidence being introduced, even if it's at the expense of my own case

WOWY's are here. methodology is also outlined behind the link. dirk is slightly better than kobe in but not by much. he's clearly better than paul and harden though harden had his best year after 2016 (last update was 2016 not sure if there have been updates since). plus-minus data can be found, here, here and updated version here.



issue with WS, BPM and VORP is they are box score-derived. so i think they kind of miss out on impact. they don't show kobe's gravity, you couldn't leave him open. now you can say you couldn't leave dirk open either but kobe was arguably better player off-ball; and certainly better off-ball player than paul and harden as the latter barely moved when he didn't have the ball in his hands. thus, kobe could impact the game without touching the ball more than those guys, save for maybe dirk.

anyway, i think the case for (and against) kobe's peak is best told in this video

 

[dahrougem2]

WOWY's are here. methodology is also outlined behind the link. dirk is slightly better than kobe in but not by much. he's clearly better than paul and harden though harden had his best year after 2016 (last update was 2016 not sure if there have been updates since). plus-minus data can be found, here, here and updated version here.



issue with WS, BPM and VORP is they are box score-derived. so i think they kind of miss out on impact. they don't show kobe's gravity, you couldn't leave him open. now you can say you couldn't leave dirk open either but kobe was arguably better player off-ball; and certainly better off-ball player than paul and harden as the latter barely moved when he didn't have the ball in his hands. thus, kobe could impact the game without touching the ball more than those guys, save for maybe dirk.

anyway, i think the case for (and against) kobe's peak is best told in this video

These are things stats don't measure, which is why advanced stats are a tool to be used but not THE form of measurement regarding players.

Don't tell that to @Neutrinos though. It's stats, stats and more stats.

 

[Voight]

This thread is the perfect example as to why advanced stats aren't that great.

 

[Say Hey Kid]

1. Jordan
2. LeBron
3. Kareem
4. Russell
5. Magic
6. Wilt
7. Bird

 

[DaaaaB's]

You are probably the only person in the World that would rank any of those guys ahead of Kobe on an all-time list.

The world's full of clueless people. Kobe is one of the most overrated players ever. And a rapist as well.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

The world's full of clueless people. Kobe is one of the most overrated players ever. And a rapist as well.

Oh, Kobe very well might be the most overrated player ever, he is still higher than Chris Paul, James Harden and Dirk Nowitzki from an all-time perspective.

 

[DaaaaB's]

Oh, Kobe very well might be the most overrated player ever, he is still higher than Chris Paul, James Harden and Dirk Nowitzki from an all-time perspective.

I wouldn't say I disagree but it's a lot closer than most people think. Especially with Dirk. Team success is the main thing Kobe has over those guys.