Shaq vs Kobe: who do you rank higher all time?

[LightningStorm]

For the 2 superstars from the Lakers 3 peat from 2000-2002, who do you rank higher all time? I think everyone can agree that Shaq was better during their time as teammates, while Kobe was better in their span outside of that (outside of Shaq's Lakers tenure, only his Orlando days are close to Kobe). But overall, who do you rank higher all time? From my anecdotal observation, I think a lot of people started saying Kobe surpassed Shaq career wise in 2010, yet the last few years I've observed more people saying Shaq was better.

Shaq gets the edge for peak, and Kobe for longevity. Prime is the biggest dispute. For me, I rank Shaq higher. Both are in my top 10 (and lack any case for top 5), yet Shaq is securely there, while I think Kobe is a borderline top 10 player who sneaks in. Shaq had at minimum a top 5 most dominant peak, and was an unstoppable force during that time. I also think his overall prime was better than Kobe's, despite not being as long (the main reason Kobe has the longevity edge).

Who do you guys rank higher all time and why?

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[Voight]

Shaqs peak was dominant especially in the playoffs but like Phil Jackson said, he could have won way more awards had he been a little more committed / tried a little harder.

 

[HisIceness]

As great as talent as Kobe was, we're more likely going to see another "Kobe" before we see another player with the sheer power and ability to dominate the paint like Shaq again.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Shaq, not even a question

 

[JackSlater]

O'Neal comfortably. Mid to late 90s, early 2000s O'Neal was the best that either of them ever was and he had enough longevity to make me comfortable.

 

[MVP of West Hollywd]

Shaq. They played on the same team and it was pretty obvious Shaq was their best player.

 

[Vamos Rafa]

Had Kobe and Shaq been the same age, the Lakers would’ve chosen to keep Shaq over Kobe in 2004.

 

[Terry Yake]

As great as talent as Kobe was, we're more likely going to see another "Kobe" before we see another player with the sheer power and ability to dominate the paint like Shaq again.

we'll never see another Shaq again because center is a dead position. today's NBA is a 3 pt shooting contest

 

[Vamos Rafa]

we'll never see another Shaq again because center is a dead position. today's NBA is a 3 pt shooting contest

Nah. Even if the center postion was alive and well, there would still be no another Shaq. No one has ever come close to his qualities since he came to the league.

 

[Terry Yake]

Nah. Even if the center postion was alive and well, there would still be no another Shaq. No one has ever come close to his qualities since he came to the league.

oh absolutely. shaq could've easily been the greatest player of all time if he had cared about staying in shape

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Shaq, easily.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Kobe worked way harder to get to where he was, but Shaq was the most dominant player of his era.

Nah. Even if the center postion was alive and well, there would still be no another Shaq. No one has ever come close to his qualities since he came to the league.

The league had to change the defensive rules because he was so dominant (3-second call.)

 

[JackSlater]

Kobe worked way harder to get to where he was, but Shaq was the most dominant player of his era.


The league had to change the defensive rules because he was so dominant (3-second call.)

The league basically couldn't call the rulebook normally with O'Neal. If they called a foul every time he actually got fouled the other teams wouldn't have enough players to finish the games.

 

[82Ninety42011]

Shaq by a mile really. Kobe was always second fiddle to Shaq when they were together.

 

[LightningStorm]

One thing I've noticed on this forum is people often claiming Kobe is overrated all time, especially compared to the general population. This thread is an example, with Shaq winning not only the voting by a landslide, but many of you not finding it close. As I said in my OP, I choose Shaq and feel comfortable with that choice, but I do think it's close. Just a trend I noticed with how users view Kobe here.

For most people, the most common way Kobe gets overrated is when he's put in the Jordan/Lebron conversation, which he definitely doesn't belong in.

 

[Vamos Rafa]

One thing I've noticed on this forum is people often claiming Kobe is overrated all time, especially compared to the general population. This thread is an example, with Shaq winning not only the voting by a landslide, but many of you not finding it close. As I said in my OP, I choose Shaq and feel comfortable with that choice, but I do think it's close. Just a trend I noticed with how users view Kobe here.

For most people, the most common way Kobe gets overrated is when he's put in the Jordan/Lebron conversation, which he definitely doesn't belong in.

Kobe also got the benefit of being a Laker. MJ and LeBron became the legends that they are playing for non-storied franchises.

Like Jeter being a Yankee. But Kobe was a better basketball player than Jeter was a baseball player.

 

[Terry Yake]

One thing I've noticed on this forum is people often claiming Kobe is overrated all time, especially compared to the general population. This thread is an example, with Shaq winning not only the voting by a landslide, but many of you not finding it close. As I said in my OP, I choose Shaq and feel comfortable with that choice, but I do think it's close. Just a trend I noticed with how users view Kobe here.

For most people, the most common way Kobe gets overrated is when he's put in the Jordan/Lebron conversation, which he definitely doesn't belong in.

in terms of dominance, there's no question it's shaq. he was by far the most dominant big man of his era and in terms of NBA history, his 99-00 season was literally a cheat code. the only other big man who was more dominating in the paint was wilt, although shaq should obviously be ranked higher than wilt given the level of competition he faced compared to wilt

kobe, on the other hand, wasn't the only SG who could dominate his position like shaq could his. during kobe's career there were guys like t-mac and AI who were scoring at around the same rate or better as kobe

 

[LightningStorm]

Kobe also got the benefit of being a Laker. MJ and LeBron became the legends that they are playing for non-storied franchises.

Like Jeter being a Yankee. But Kobe was a better basketball player than Jeter was a baseball player.

Yeah in terms of organizational infrastructure from their 3 main franchises (Bulls/Lakers/Cavs), the order is Kobe/Michael/Lebron, and I don't think that can even be debated. The Bulls clearly put a better team around MJ than the Cavs did with Lebron, while at the same time the Bulls also don't touch the built in advantages of the Lakers.

I do agree that Kobe is better than Jeter, who's basketball equivalent IMO is Duncan. All 3 are fawned over as being great champions when in reality they all got a big head start with the organizations they got drafted into. Spurs obviously aren't the historic franchise of the Yankees and Lakers, but they were a model organization from the time they drafted Robinson to Duncan's retirement.

 

[Terry Yake]

Yeah in terms of organizational infrastructure from their 3 main franchises (Bulls/Lakers/Cavs), the order is Kobe/Michael/Lebron, and I don't think that can even be debated. The Bulls clearly put a better team around MJ than the Cavs did with Lebron, while at the same time the Bulls also don't touch the built in advantages of the Lakers.

I do agree that Kobe is better than Jeter, who's basketball equivalent IMO is Duncan. All 3 are fawned over as being great champions when in reality they all got a big head start with the organizations they got drafted into. Spurs obviously aren't the historic franchise of the Yankees and Lakers, but they were a model organization from the time they drafted Robinson to Duncan's retirement.

duncan was a far better basketball player than jeter was a baseball player

jeter is one of the most overrated players in MLB history while duncan should be on everyone's top 10 list

 

[LightningStorm]

kobe, on the other hand, wasn't the only SG who could dominate his position like shaq could his. during kobe's career there were guys like t-mac and AI who were scoring at around the same rate or better as kobe

While I think Kobe's biggest fans are wrong when comparing him to MJ and Lebron, this reminds me where I think his detractors miss the mark (not talking about you specifically). Despite him not being efficient enough to be on the MJ/LBJ level, Kobe's efficiency still beats AI and T-Mac, so I don't go along with the narrative that Kobe would've simply been like those 2 had he not been with the Lakers organization.

duncan was a far better basketball player than jeter was a baseball player

jeter is one of the most overrated players in MLB history while duncan should be on everyone's top 10 list

I have Duncan right outside my top 10 (I value rings and individual D less than the average fan. And by that I mean offense and defense aren't 50/50) but I do think he's better than Jeter. Mostly due to not having a consequential weakness like Jeter's defense.

 

[Terry Yake]

While I think Kobe's biggest fans are wrong when comparing him to MJ and Lebron, this reminds me where I think his detractors miss the mark (not talking about you specifically). Despite him not being efficient enough to be on the MJ/LBJ level, Kobe's efficiency still beats AI and T-Mac, so I don't go along with the narrative that Kobe would've simply been like those 2 had he not been with the Lakers organization.

I have Duncan right outside my top 10 (I value rings and individual D less than the average fan. And by that I mean offense and defense aren't 50/50) but I do think he's better than Jeter. Mostly due to not having a consequential weakness like Jeter's defense.

kobe was always compared to MJ from the beginning because of their similar playing styles and the fact that they played the same position. and once phil took over as lakers HC, it took on another level. so the MJ comparisons were inevitable really

comparing him to lebron is dumb because they weren't similar players at all. lebron is the far better all around player and was never known as a pure scorer like kobe. i mentioned AI and t-mac they're the most comparable to kobe. AI put up the better scoring numbers for a while and you had t-mac with a couple crazy scoring seasons as well, but kobe continued putting up his numbers long after those two were past their primes. he was also the better defender and had the hardware

 

[LightningStorm]

kobe was always compared to MJ from the beginning because of their similar playing styles and the fact that they played the same position. and once phil took over as lakers HC, it took on another level. so the MJ comparisons were inevitable really

comparing him to lebron is dumb because they weren't similar players at all. lebron is the far better all around player and was never known as a pure scorer like kobe. i mentioned AI and t-mac they're the most comparable to kobe. AI put up the better scoring numbers for a while and you had t-mac with a couple crazy scoring seasons as well, but kobe continued putting up his numbers long after those two were past their primes. he was also the better defender and had the hardware

With the Jordan comparison, a big part was how desperate the NBA was to find the next MJ, and Kobe wasn't the first to be hyped as that. He does deserve credit for having a career good enough to where that projection wasn't in vain.

With Lebron, I do agree the comparison makes no sense today, both due to him passing Kobe and their different games. But there was a period from the late 2000's up to when Kobe got older and Durant emerged where Kobe and Lebron were the 2 best players in the game, so in that respect its perfectly understandable why they were compared. Speaking of Durant, I think Lebron/KD has been an underrated player rivalry, and Lebron/Kobe an overrated one. Lebron's prime overlapped a lot more with KD than Kobe. Also, I'd put Kobe and KD in the same tier as players.

 

[Neutrinos]

With the Jordan comparison, a big part was how desperate the NBA was to find the next MJ, and Kobe wasn't the first to be hyped as that. He does deserve credit for having a career good enough to where that projection wasn't in vain.

With Lebron, I do agree the comparison makes no sense today, both due to him passing Kobe and their different games. But there was a period from the late 2000's up to when Kobe got older and Durant emerged where Kobe and Lebron were the 2 best players in the game, so in that respect its perfectly understandable why they were compared. Speaking of Durant, I think Lebron/KD has been an underrated player rivalry, and Lebron/Kobe an overrated one. Lebron's prime overlapped a lot more with KD than Kobe. Also, I'd put Kobe and KD in the same tier as players.

Please provide some statistical evidence to support that claim

 

[LightningStorm]

Please provide some statistical evidence to support that claim

I'd be curious to know who you think was in the conversation for that time period (not rhetorical, genuinely curious). Dwyane Wade's 2009 season is the only other one that immediately stands out.

 

[Neutrinos]

Kobe's on-court value to his team simply wasn't at a level that would warrant consideration as a top 10 player of all-time

Even at his peak he had nowhere near the positive impact on the court that his reputation would lead you to believe

Look at the career highs that some of his contemporaries were able to achieve:

Harden's career highs:
30.6 PER, 16.4 Win Shares, .289 WS/48, 11 BPM, 9.3 VORP

Durant's career highs:
29.8 PER, 19.2 Win Shares, .295 WS/48, 10.2 BPM, 9.6 VORP

McGrady's career highs:
30.3 PER, 16.1 Win Shares, .262 WS/48, 10.5 BPM, 9.3 VORP

Chris Paul's career highs:
30 PER, 18.3 Win Shares, .292 WS/48, 11 BPM, 9.9 VORP

Garnett's career highs:
29.4 PER< 18.3 Win Shares, .272 WS/48, 10.2 BPM, 10 VORP

Shaq's career highs:
30.6 PER, 18.6 Win Shares, .283 WS/48, 9.3 BPM, 9 VORP

Jokic's career highs:
32.8 PER, 15.6 Win Shares, .301 WS/48, 13.7 BPM, 9.8 VORP

Nowitzki's career highs:
28.1 PER, 17.7 Win Shares, .278 WS/48, 8.3 BPM, 7.9 VORP

Curry's career highs:
31.5 PER, 17.9 Win Shares, .318 WS/48, 11.9 BPM, 9.5 VORP

LeBron's career highs:
31.7 PER, 20.3 Win Shares, .322 WS/48, 13.2 BPM, 11.8 VORP

Kobe's career highs:
28 PER, 15.3 Win Shares, .224 WS/48, 7.6 BPM, 8.0 VORP

Kobe only comes out ahead against one player, in one category. His 8.0 VORP beats Nowitzki's mark of 7.9, however, Kobe played 188 more minutes in his season, or the equivalent of about 4.5 games

Here's a list of Kobe's contemporaries who have lead the NBA in an advanced stat at least 5 times:

McGrady
Durant
Paul
Curry
LeBron
Garnett
Harden
Giannis
Shaq
Nowitzki
Duncan

The number of times Kobe lead the league in an advanced stat = 0

For comparison sake, Shaq lead in an advanced stat 20 times, LeBron 43 times, while Jordan lead 61 times


And Kobe's reputation as an elite defender isn't based in reality either

He had 11 seasons with a negative DBPM, and his career high of 1.6 was the only time in his career that he finished a season above 1

Jordan had just one season with a negative DBPM in his career, his first year in Washington when he finished -0.1. His career high was 4.2, and he had 9 seasons where he finished above Kobe's personal best of 1.6

LeBron's career high was 3.7, and he had 13 seasons at or better than Kobe's personal best of 1.6. And the only time LeBron finished with a negative DBPM was as a rookie


If Kobe was anywhere close to being a top 10 player of all-time, the stats would support that, but they don't