Shaq vs Kobe: who do you rank higher all time?

[Neutrinos]

In 2006 he probably was. Not nearly as much as his reputation suggested though.

Nope, not even then

He finished behind LeBron in PER, BPM, OBPM, WS, OWS, WS/48, VORP

 

[Neutrinos]

I don't care how you word it, kobe is a better basketball player than Harden and it's hilarious you think this is close. This is take a fraudulent casual fan would have don't care what the fancy stats say, Harden isn't even better than Wade or Iverson

Stats > Your Opinion

 

[Terry Yake]

I'm talking about his whole career after 2001, but yes the Lakers would have been better, even after he'd forced O'Neal out, if he had played better all around basketball. Can't say it wasn't entertaining to watch 2006 Kobe Bryant though.

those lakers teams weren't going to go any further than they did if kobe had passed more because they simply weren't good enough. perhaps they would've won a few more games on his off nights, but aside from odom he was surrounded by g-leaguers those seasons. he was an underrated passer, but he wasn't nearly as good of a passer or rebounder compared to lebron who was doing exactly what you're talking about with cleveland during those years. the west was stacked during those seasons too. the fact that they came within a game of beating the suns in 06 is crazy

Can't say it wasn't entertaining to watch 2006 Kobe Bryant though.

and that's exactly why advanced stats aren't kind to him. his whole game was based on taking difficult shots and on his off nights, he'd keep shooting those tough shots when every other player would've stopped shooting

 

[JackSlater]

those lakers teams weren't going to go any further than they did if kobe had passed more because they simply weren't good enough. perhaps they would've won a few more games on his off nights, but aside from odom he was surrounded by g-leaguers those seasons. he was an underrated passer, but he wasn't nearly as good of a passer or rebounder compared to lebron who was doing exactly what you're talking about with cleveland during those years. the west was stacked during those seasons too. the fact that they came within a game of beating the suns in 06 is crazy


and that's exactly why advanced stats aren't kind to him. his whole game was based on taking difficult shots and on his off nights, he'd keep shooting those tough shots when every other player would've stopped shooting

Bryant wasn't LeBron James in terms of talent, but young Bryant showed very good all around ability. I just don't think that he pursued it to the level that he should have. Turn a few of the bad shots into passes, some more effort on the defensive end (the all-NBA defence team picks are nothing) and you'd end up with a better team. It's still impressive that Bryant could play as he did successfully in 2006, which is why I enjoyed watching him. It was probably the closest thing I have ever seen in basketball to a soloist, at least at that high a level.

 

[JackSlater]

Nope, not even then

He finished behind LeBron in PER, BPM, OBPM, WS, OWS, WS/48, VORP

That's nice. I do think it is very debatable that James was already better, and certainly he was by 2007. I'd like to see if the .1 difference in PER, for example, might have changed if they had swapped conferences.

 

[LightningStorm]

Bryant wasn't LeBron James in terms of talent, but young Bryant showed very good all around ability. I just don't think that he pursued it to the level that he should have. Turn a few of the bad shots into passes, some more effort on the defensive end (the all-NBA defence team picks are nothing) and you'd end up with a better team. It's still impressive that Bryant could play as he did successfully in 2006, which is why I enjoyed watching him. It was probably the closest thing I have ever seen in basketball to a soloist, at least at that high a level.

Kobe did show his ability to temper some of that soloist ball when the Lakers went to 3 straight finals from 2008-2010. I have to agree with Terry, the post-Shaq/pre-Gasol Lakers were genuinely that bad to where Kobe simply being a chucker was their best shot at winning. Sure, you could blame him for running Shaq out, but that's another discussion. Plus being in the West only compounded it. Those few years his supporting cast reminded me of Lebron's during his first Cavs tenure, and being out West meant no deep playoff runs. After the Lakers traded for Gasol, Kobe did become better at team ball. All in all I thought how he played before and after the Gasol trade was reflective of how much he had to carry the team around him, with Gasol taking a load off him.

 

[dahrougem2]

Stats > Your Opinion

Opinions of basketball watchers > stats of non-basketball watchers

 

[Neutrinos]

Opinions of basketball watchers > stats of non-basketball watchers

In 2017, ESPN ran an online poll asking "Who Ranks Higher For You, Kobe Or LeBron?"

Over 91k votes have been cast, with 60% of them ranking Kobe over LeBron

So, tell me again how the biased opinions of basketball watchers are of greater value than statistics?

Vote: Who ranks higher for you, Kobe or LeBron?

Michael Jordan believes Kobe Bryant's five rings put him ahead of LeBron James and his three championships on the list of all-time NBA greats. Do you agree?

www.espn.com

An opinion is like a scientific hypothesis in that it's meaningless if it can't be proven

You keep trying to use your hypothesis - and the hypothesis of others - to prove your hypothesis

 

[DaaaaB's]

Opinions of basketball watchers > stats of non-basketball watchers

That's a ridiculous take. As if fans aren't biased and as if stats guys don't watch Basketball. Fans are so biased towards Kobe that they don't even care that he raped a girl and got away with it.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Stats > Your Opinion

But which stats do you use? There are dozens (probably hundreds) of stats that can be used to evaluate basketball players (and hockey players, for that matter). Which ones should be used, and which shouldn't? If two stats give you different results, how do you decide which one to prioritize?

For "all in one" stats (like Win Shares or VORP) - all are based on assumptions from the creator. The systems may be sound, or they may contain design flaws that could make them systematically biased against certain types of players. What's the process for evaluating the quantity and severity of the design flaws in any of the "all in one" stats?

Let's say you found your favourite stat and you're convinced it's better than any of the others. What time frame do you use? Best single season? Career average? Best X number of years (consecutive or not)? How do you balance between regular season and playoff stats? Even if you use the same stat, different parameters could give you different results when comparing the same two players.

I'm not against using stats (that should be obvious from my post history). But "Stats > Your Opinion" doesn't help. You still need to pick which stats you want to use, and pick a timeframe. Using stats doesn't somehow alleviate you of the need to think critically about your argument.

 

[Neutrinos]

But which stats do you use? There are dozens (probably hundreds) of stats that can be used to evaluate basketball players (and hockey players, for that matter). Which ones should be used, and which shouldn't? If two stats give you different results, how do you decide which one to prioritize?

For "all in one" stats (like Win Shares or VORP) - all are based on assumptions from the creator. The systems may be sound, or they may contain design flaws that could make them systematically biased against certain types of players. What's the process for evaluating the quantity and severity of the design flaws in any of the "all in one" stats?

Let's say you found your favourite stat and you're convinced it's better than any of the others. What time frame do you use? Best single season? Career average? Best X number of years (consecutive or not)? How do you balance between regular season and playoff stats? Even if you use the same stat, different parameters could give you different results when comparing the same two players.

I'm not against using stats (that should be obvious from my post history). But "Stats > Your Opinion" doesn't help. You still need to pick which stats you want to use, and pick a timeframe. Using stats doesn't somehow alleviate you of the need to think critically about your argument.

If you read through the thread, you'll see exactly which stats I've used

And it's not just one stat that can be dismissed as "flawed", it's every advanced statistic on Basketball-Reference has Kobe's actual on-court value well below that which his reputation would have you believe

Single-season highs, playoff prime, none of these time frames are particularly flattering to Kobe when compared to many of the stars of his era that are believed to have been inferior

 

[BrokenFace]

Shaq's personality makes people under rate him. He's so goofy that people don't recognize that he may be the best big man to ever play. People like Kobe's intensity and mamba mentality, but goofball Shaq will help you win a lot more games.

 

[Neutrinos]

Shaq's personality makes people under rate him. He's so goofy that people don't recognize that he may be the best big man to ever play. People like Kobe's intensity and mamba mentality, but goofball Shaq will help you win a lot more games.

I thought he was dumb, immature, petty, and was an attention whore

Not goofy, but a buffoon

He wasn't funny, clever, or entertaining, so his whole schtick just seemed clumsy, and forced

Here he is intentionally jumping into the crowd - risking an injury to a fan as he hurls his 300+ lb body on them - and the commentators laugh it up like it's something magnificent we were all blessed to have witnessed:


And here he is bragging about how big, rich, and good at basketball he is:



Kobe the rapist was more likeable than Shaq the rapper

 

[Deen]

I thought he was dumb, immature, petty, and was an attention whore

He wasn't funny, clever, or entertaining, so his whole schtick just seemed clumsy, and forced

Here he intentionally jumping into the crowd - risking an injury to a fan as he hurls his 300+ lb body on them - and the commentators laugh it up like it's something magnificent we were all blessed to have witnessed:


And here he is bragging about how big, rich, and good at basketball he is:



Kobe the rapist was more likeable than Shaq the rapper

Video makes me miss actual basketball.

 

[John Price]

Kobe.

 

[BrokenFace]

I thought he was dumb, immature, petty, and was an attention whore

He wasn't funny, clever, or entertaining, so his whole schtick just seemed clumsy, and forced

Here he intentionally jumping into the crowd - risking an injury to a fan as he hurls his 300+ lb body on them - and the commentators laugh it up like it's something magnificent we were all blessed to have witnessed:


And here he is bragging about how big, rich, and good at basketball he is:



Kobe the rapist was more likeable than Shaq the rapper

I didn't even know that you were referring to Shaq instead of Kobe until you mentioned his 300+ lb body. A lot of those adjectives describe Kobe just as well.

 

[Neutrinos]

I didn't even know that you were referring to Shaq instead of Kobe until you mentioned his 300+ lb body. A lot of those adjectives describe Kobe just as well.

I got the impression that Kobe modelled his demeanour after Jordan as well

Always playing it cool when the spotlight's on him

 

[Soundwave]

The only player I would take over a peak Shaq is probably a peak Jordan just because of his clutch ability and free throws and just better ability to change the flow of a game when the game is in the balance.

Prime Shaq is an absolute monster.

That said, Kobe Bryant is one of the most skilled players ever, and yeah I do think he's the best pure scorer of the 2000-2010 decade. While he could be baited into taking bad shots, you do have to admire how freaking hard he competed and how seriously he took being great.

How many players today would take an All-Star game so seriously that they'd personally match up with LeBron James and then proceed to shut his ass down in the game (blocked his shot twice in a row). I mean I do admire that mentality, lots of players wouldn't try it.

 

[Boris Le Tigre]

I would pick Shaq.

The hype when he came up with all the rumours of taking down whole backboards and such was the most in recent memory.

He really was a freak man. A guy his size that can generate the speed and explosiveness at such an elite level while still being that massive and strong… That’s not really physically attainable for mortals.

Kobe is excellent but there is a depth of quality at 2/3 that makes him less distinctive relative to his peers.

 

[Neutrinos]

The only player I would take over a peak Shaq is probably a peak Jordan just because of his clutch ability and free throws and just better ability to change the flow of a game when the game is in the balance.

Prime Shaq is an absolute monster.

That said, Kobe Bryant is one of the most skilled players ever, and yeah I do think he's the best pure scorer of the 2000-2010 decade. While he could be baited into taking bad shots, you do have to admire how freaking hard he competed and how seriously he took being great.

How many players today would take an All-Star game so seriously that they'd personally match up with LeBron James and then proceed to shut his ass down in the game (blocked his shot twice in a row). I mean I do admire that mentality, lots of players wouldn't try it.

While I think Shaq gets underrated in all time lists (anybody ranking Russell ahead of Shaq should lose their voting rights indefinitely), his monstrous numbers during his prime fall short of LeBron's, he doesn't have LeBron's longevity, he can't match LeBron's peak or health, and LBJ was a much more versatile defender

So, what's the argument for Shaq over LeBron?


Shaq's Playoff Highs:
31.0 PER, .604 TS%, 3.6 OWS, 1.4 DWS, 4.7 WS, .260 WS/48, 8.0 OPBM, 1.6 DPM, 8.4 BPM, 2.6 VORP

LeBron's Playoff Highs:
37.4 PER, .668 TS%, 4.2 OWS, 1.6 DWS, 5.8 WS, .399 WS/48, 12.8 OBPM, 4.8 DBPM, 17.5 BPM, 3.4 VORP


Here we see how many times Shaq lead the playoffs in an advanced stat compared to LeBron:

Shaq
PER 4x, OWS 3x, DWS 2x, WS 4x, WS/48 2x, OBPM 1x, DPM 0x, BPM 0x, VORP 2x
Total = 18

LeBron
PER 5x, OWS 8x, DWS 4x, WS 9x, WS/48 4x, OBPM 5x, DBPM 0x, BPM 5x, VORP 9x
Total = 49

LeBron's Differential Over Shaq
PER +1, OWS +5, DWS +2, WS +5, WS/48 +2, OBPM +4, DBPM +0, BPM +5, VORP +7
Total = 33