Post-Game Talk: Sens shoot shoot shoot and lose 5-1 to Winnipeg

[DueDiligence]

Toffoli? Who’s he winning games against? Toffoli is changing a absolute train wreck into a regular bad team.

That's my point. I use him as an example that if the Sens had even one guy like that they have another couple of wins. And instead of the tire fire they have right now guys are thinking they are headed in the right direction. And more guys start to have confidence and play up to their potential.

 

[Answer]

My expectations were 0.3-0.5ppg. Both are at or exceeding my points expectations. They are also getting way more prime minutes and chances than I thought they would. They just aren’t doing much to show me they will develop into top end guys.

They don’t look like anything more than average 2nd line guys, who don’t excel at any one thing, like Fisher did.

If we could have a 21 year old Fisher or either Batherson or Norris, it’s an extremely, extremely easy choice for me.

My full judgement on Batherson and Norris will be after I see a full season of them getting prime minutes as a top 6, playing 18+ minutes, like Tkachuk did for past 2 years, including this. I had the same complaint about Balcers, last year, and I was never a fan of him, but have to be fair to every player.

Can't judge 2 players who are still under 82 games in NHL level are always on the hot seat, and are being moved around the lineup playing 12-15 minutes.

 

[Sensmileletsgo]

That's my point. I use him as an example that if the Sens had even one guy like that they have another couple of wins. And instead of the tire fire they have right now guys are thinking they are headed in the right direction. And more guys start to have confidence and play up to their potential.

So if the Sens had Toffoli they would have a couple more wins and guys would think they are heading in the right direction. This is all a made up scenario you’ve been talking about.

 

[coladin]

I thought the way the players came out, it shows that they know what to do. The young guys, everyone. Once again, they look great, completely overwhelm their opponent. The team starts the second, and another legendary gaffe and the shoulders sag. The shoulders sagging is something that will get sorted with experience and good support system. Fact is, they know what to do (other than score). Hollow victories , for sure, but that is all I have.

I thought Norris proved a point, and had a very good game even on the 4th line

 

[DueDiligence]

Oh - How old was Stone before he was a "great scorer" in the NHL ?

He broke out as a 22 year old. But my point was he was a great scorer in junior and in the AHL. So not a real surprise he broke out. None of the young Sens have that same long history of being great scorer except Stutzle; single years yes like Norris last year but no one you can point to and say he will be a consistent 25 -30 goal scorer.

 

[DueDiligence]

So if the Sens had Toffoli they would have a couple more wins and guys would think they are heading in the right direction. This is all a made up scenario you’ve been talking about.

So what's your point? You said the analytics mean shit; I say they don't. Whatever.

 

[DueDiligence]

Do you actually actually believe that? Be honest

well we know you don't.

 

[Sweatred]

He broke out as a 22 year old. But my point was he was a great scorer in junior and in the AHL. So not a real surprise he broke out.

Stone was drafted behind 177 players - its a surprise he’s played 100 games let alone had the career he has had. Even the Sens didn’t expect much from him.

There isn’t a GM in the league that wouldn’t take a draft eligible a 18 year old Norris over 18 year old Stone.

 

[swiftwin]

Exactly, when I saw this video, I wasn't sure what I was looking? Iginla and Forsberg? Really?

A similar video could be made for more than 70% of the NHLers if we are being honest. Heck, a video like this could be made for Erik Condra and Chris Kelly

Do Condra and Kelly lead the league in shots on goal? Do they lead the league in expected goals? Do they lead the league in high danger chances? Are they 2nd in the league in hits? Did they ever lead their team in points?

Because Brady is doing all those things with below average linemates as a 22yr old.

 

[FolignoQuantumLeap]

Who is the coach responsible for our PP? Our PP is horrible in every aspect and having a bad PP over and over during a game can really demoralize guys on the ice and on the bench.

- The stupid pass to the trailing player before crossing the red line has to go, we almost never get proper zone entry, it's way too easy to defend against especially when it's not done well and is completely predictable. Other teams have this PP strategy deployed at times (emphasis on the at times, it can be useful to show a different look to the opposing team once in a while but it has to be done with speed)
- The only player that drives a PP zone entry is Stüzle he speeds through the neutral zone and finds the spot to get O zone entry and successfully gains the zone 8 out 10 times compared to others using the pass back strategy where we gain the zone maybe 3 out of 10 times and get to setup properly.

I find it so difficult to support any decisions made by coaching, we have no system, no plan, no line chemistry being developed because the lines change 10 times during a game, let the guys get some chemistry going. and bring the right guys in. Bring Formenton and L. Brown and please change the coaching and management of this team.

I think we should look at Gerard Gallant coming in as Coach with his own staff to boot, our goaltending coach is clearly not working out, assistant coaches are out, We have so many young guys that have high ceilings that i feel are being poisoned by DJ smith and his lack of understanding how to manage a system, players and chemistry and also as we all know relies on vets at every turn.

This season is clearly already done for us, so let's make the change now and get all the young guys in to work at establishing the right system and the right chemistry.

I've read and heard a lot if complaints about the trailer zone entry on the PP from Sens fans here and on tsn1200.

I really don't see our zone entries on the PP being an issue. Maybe I'm wrong in this, I haven't looked up the numbers but the team seems fairly efficient at getting set up in the opposition's zone via the neutral zone. Bigger problem is the actual PP strategy and winning face offs.

Right now, I mostly see 3 guys high in an umbrella type set up with Chabot at the top with very few shooting options (besides the rare occasion Galchenyuk is set up in the right circle in PP2). I'd rather see Stützle and Batherson swap sides if they stay in that set up. IIRC Batherson set up there in junior and did a lot of damage. Makes his shot a weapon and option, that I dont think he has on the right side of the ice.

I think we'd be better off going with more of a down low set up to take advantage of Tkachuk and Dadonov's strengths. 2 point men, more bodies in front, more point shots, keep the puck moving rather than having the top 3 guys have to hold it to make a play.

I dunno, I'm not a coach.

 

[DylanSensFan]

I guess it means shit if you don't understand it. What it does tell you is that Sens have been competing well enough to win but bad goaltending and the lack of finishing is what is doing them in. If I am Dorian I try to trade for a scorer; a guy like Toffoli would have been a great add.

If I'm Dorian, I bring in Logan Brown and put him between Batherson and Stutzle. Then have Norris center the second line with Tkachuk and Dadanov.

 

[Sensmileletsgo]

So what's your point? You said the analytics mean shit; I say they don't. Whatever.

My point is that if you are using a stat to validate the Sens play and think that we are close to competing and are just a player like Toffoli away, or in Dorian’s case a Stepan away from being competitive, I think that opinion is wrong and we are still a long ways away from being competitive.

Yes we outshot the jets 42-26 last night and probably looked better in a lot of advanced stats but it’s obvious we aren’t even close to competing with the Jets right now.

 

[swiftwin]

I've read and heard a lot if complaints about the trailer zone entry on the PP from Sens fans here and on tsn1200.

I really don't see our zone entries on the PP being an issue. Maybe I'm wrong in this, I haven't looked up the numbers but the team seems fairly efficient at getting set up in the opposition's zone via the neutral zone. Bigger problem is the actual PP strategy and winning face offs.

Right now, I mostly see 3 guys high in an umbrella type set up with Chabot at the top with very few shooting options (besides the rare occasion Galchenyuk is set up in the right circle in PP2). I'd rather see Stützle and Batherson swap sides if they stay in that set up. IIRC Batherson set up there in junior and did a lot of damage. Makes his shot a weapon and option, that I dont think he has on the right side of the ice.

I think we'd be better off going with more of a down low set up to take advantage of Tkachuk and Dadonov's strengths. 2 point men, more bodies in front, more point shots, keep the puck moving rather than having the top 3 guys have to hold it to make a play.

I dunno, I'm not a coach.

Agree 100%.

I know our zone entries look farcical, but it works. Last year we had major issues on zone entries. This year, it's really not a problem. Every team does some variation of the trailing player on the PP. It just works.

Our bigger issue is the lack of movement once we're set up in the zone. That high umbrella stuff works fine if you have amazing shooters, but we don't. We need to work it down low and get some greasy goals. Tkachuk has only 2 PP assists this season, Dadonov only has 1. Neither have scored in the PP. The only goals we've been getting on the PP has been shots from the umbrella from Norris, Stutzle, Galchenyuk and Batherson.

The umbrella like we have is simple. Trying to work it down low requires more practice and coordination. I just think that the team has been too busy fixing up the defensive zone issues to make this a priority. Hopefully they get to it soon.

 

[DueDiligence]

Stone was drafted behind 177 players - its a surprise he’s played 100 games let alone had the career he has had. Even the Sens didn’t expect much from him.

There isn’t a GM in the league that wouldn’t take a draft eligible a 18 year old Norris over 18 year old Stone.

To clarify: It's a crapshoot if any guy becomes a very good player in the NHL outside of a select few. It's not like Stone had average stats in junior and the AHL. People were always concerned about his skating but they knew he could score. Obviously a bunch of scouts were wrong drafting him so low. And up until last year Norris was not known for his scoring. solid player with OK stats. Was last year an anomaly or can he be a reliable 25 goal man in the NHL? Batherson even more so. Nothing suggests he is going to be anything more than a 15 goal 30 assist type guy in the NHL.
So outside of Stutzle do you see anybody on the team that looks to be 30 goal scorer? How about a point a game player? Right now I see no one, other than Stutzle, who looks like they might do that.

 

[DueDiligence]

If I'm Dorian, I bring in Logan Brown and put him between Batherson and Stutzle. Then have Norris center the second line with Tkachuk and Dadanov.

So the Sens put Brown in. But what happens if he gets 3 points in 10 games because no one can bury their chances?

 

[Answer]

Do Condra and Kelly lead the league in shots on goal? Do they lead the league in expected goals? Do they lead the league in high danger chances? Are they 2nd in the league in hits? Did they ever lead their team in points?

Because Brady is doing all those things with below average linemates as a 22yr old.
View attachment 395581

I am not saying Kelly or Condra are on Tkachuk's level but anyone can make a nice looking, similar type of video for a lot of NHL players

I am sorry, but that stats don't mean anything. It's like me telling my boss that I am work 10 hours a day, and have no production to show for. But, yes blame everything on his 'below average' line mates. Brown and Tierney were pulling their weight when it comes to creating offensive chances. Batherson and Norris were doing the same when playing with Tkachuk. Shouldn't Tkachuk be helping out his 'below average' line mates get better since he's the above average player?

 

[DueDiligence]

My point is that if you are using a stat to validate the Sens play and think that we are close to competing and are just a player like Toffoli away, or in Dorian’s case a Stepan away from being competitive

Did I ever say that? No I didn't. I said the Sens would go from being an historically bad team to being just a bad team. No where did I say getting a guy like Toffoli would make them competitive. But what I did say that by getting a guy or two who could put the puck in the net would help the overall mood on the team. To show them they are on the right track. If guys try things in a game and they never get positive results they will end up giving up. For example Batherson seems like a great setup man on the PP but if it doesn't result in any goals what's the point.
And I also said that if I was Dorian the analytics tell me to trade for and/or draft a shooter. No dmen or playmakers ; a shooter because team has maybe one. That's it.

 

[DueDiligence]

I am sorry, but that stats don't mean anything.

Disagree totally. Although it's a different sport the stats told the Tampa Bay Bucs they were a good QB away from being serious contenders. They switched away from their 5 year starter and look what happened.

 

[Answer]

Disagree totally. Although it's a different sport the stats told the Tampa Bay Bucs they were a good QB away from being serious contenders. They switched away from their 5 year starter and look what happened.

Well you said it! We are a good #1 center away from being a playoff team. Switch our 3 year starter(1st line player) with a #1 center and see what happens.

 

[Byron Bitz]

Is nobody high on daccord? Why not give him a shot?

There’s risk of destroying his confidence

 

[DueDiligence]

Well you said it! We are a good #1 center away from being a playoff team. Switch our 3 year starter(1st line player) with a #1 center and see what happens.

You make me laugh! Give BT a real #1 centre and watch him flourish.

 

[Korpse]

I am not saying Kelly or Condra are on Tkachuk's level but anyone can make a nice looking, similar type of video for a lot of NHL players

I am sorry, but that stats don't mean anything. It's like me telling my boss that I am work 10 hours a day, and have no production to show for.

His two seasons as a 19 and 20 year old his production is slightly below that of a 1st line player.

 

[DueDiligence]

There’s risk of destroying his confidence

Actually I think Joey D would be fine in this situation. He was the guy on a bad Arizona State team and over 3 years made them much better.

 

[Butchy Dakkar]

I've read and heard a lot if complaints about the trailer zone entry on the PP from Sens fans here and on tsn1200.

I really don't see our zone entries on the PP being an issue. Maybe I'm wrong in this, I haven't looked up the numbers but the team seems fairly efficient at getting set up in the opposition's zone via the neutral zone. Bigger problem is the actual PP strategy and winning face offs.

Right now, I mostly see 3 guys high in an umbrella type set up with Chabot at the top with very few shooting options (besides the rare occasion Galchenyuk is set up in the right circle in PP2). I'd rather see Stützle and Batherson swap sides if they stay in that set up. IIRC Batherson set up there in junior and did a lot of damage. Makes his shot a weapon and option, that I dont think he has on the right side of the ice.

I think we'd be better off going with more of a down low set up to take advantage of Tkachuk and Dadonov's strengths. 2 point men, more bodies in front, more point shots, keep the puck moving rather than having the top 3 guys have to hold it to make a play.

I dunno, I'm not a coach.

My eye test tells me we suck at entries, but are very good at getting entered on. Maybe I’m wrong.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

That's my point. I use him as an example that if the Sens had even one guy like that they have another couple of wins. And instead of the tire fire they have right now guys are thinking they are headed in the right direction. And more guys start to have confidence and play up to their potential.

Sorry. Meant he isn’t. Toffoli isn’t changing our current teams fortunes