Sens Scouting Staff

[MatchesMalone]

Posted this in another forum. Figure it is worth putting here for your consideration. Seems to me this is an area that the vast majority of fans don't know or think a lot about. But we're interested in prospects and the draft, and the scouts are the one's who actually deserve all of the credit (and blame) for all that stuff.

First thing I gotta point point out: at least to offset the drastic salary dump, the organization has thrown a bunch of money at scouts. The scouting staff is bigger currently than I've ever seen the Sens'. Up to three scouts in Europe again!

So basically my strategy was to find every possible post-draft team media from the past decade or more, and they typically interview the scouts of a given region about the players drafted from that region; so I credit those picks to those scouts. Better yet, sometimes you can find a head scout or GM give credit to a certain scout for pushing for a player. Any instances of these I give full credit to the scout.

In the second part I just go over the remaining players from recent drafts, and look at who manages the area the player was drafted out of. So the first part is more reliable, but I still think there is some value to the more speculative data. Circumstantial evidence adds up.

Part I: The scouts

Veterans:

Trent Mann - Chief Scout, former goaltender, formerly in charge of QMJHL, so best believe he was in on Kevin Mandolese (2018 sixth) and Francois Brassard (2012 sixth). He also shares primary credit for Batherson (2017 fourth) with Don Boyd. See later: Chabot.

George Fargher - WHL, BCHL - He was specifically involved in Jared Cowen and Curtis Lazar, but I don't pay too much attention to first rounders. The DPPs and head scouts, and the scouting staff as a whole, are all involved in the first rounders (although one guy can have a big impact, see: Anders Forsberg 2008 through 2010). More recently Fargher was involved in Maxime Lajoie (2016 fifth), Chris Driedger (2012 third) and Johnny Tychonick (2018 second, did not have a strong NCAA freshman year).

Mikko Ruutu - Chief European scout - The only two I've found him directly credited for are Christian Jaros (2015 fifth) and Markus Nurmi (2016 sixth) but he'll feature in part II.

Don Boyd - Mostly covers Ontario and Quebec - The only picks I've been able to attribute to him directly were Drake Batherson (2017 fourth) and Gabriel Gagne (2015 2nd).

Bob Janecyk - USHL, NAHL, USNDP, USHS - 2018 picks Johnny Gruden (fourth) and Jakov Novak (seventh) had solid freshmen seasons. Todd Burgess (2016 fourth) just played his third NCAA season, did ok. Tim Boyle (2012 fourth) was a trainwreck of a pick. Robbie Baillargeon (2012 fifth) and Miles Gendron (2014 third) are total flops as well. Max McCormick (2011 sixth) played 71 NHL games. Ryan Dzingel is his most successful late pick, in the seventh round in 2011.

Summer 2017 hires:

Steve Stirling - Retired from a long coaching career then as an assistant in Binghamton, to become head of NCAA recruiting. So if I'm to understand that role, give credit to him for Max Veronneau, and he was probably strongly involved in scouting Brady Tkachuk.

Bobby Strumm - WHL, BCHL - Given credit for Angus Crookshank (2018 fifth), Crookshank is easily the biggest rise in stock of our 2018 crop so far. Could be a real gem.

Dan Boeser - US Midwest - Luke Loheit (2018 seventh) had a particularly uninspiring post-draft season.

Todd Stirling - US Northeast - May have had some say on Gruden and Novak.

Anders Östberg - Europe - Could get partial credit for all of the none Europeans the Sens drafted last year.

Summer 2018 hires:

Christian De Blois - Quebec, Maritimes
Petr Havluj - Europe
Kyle Flanagan - Quebec, Ontario, NCAA

Part II

2018 - All picks have been accounted for in part I, except Bernard-Docker. Don Boyd territory, but of course the chief scout (Mann) should always get top billing on first round picks.

2017 - Late first rounder Shane Bowers was Bob Janecyk's territory.

Alex Formenton (second) - Don Boyd was the only full-time scout concentrated in Ontario at the time, and not to mention he is apparently based out of London.

Jordan Hollet (sixth) - Out of the dub, this would be Fargher's guy.

2016 - Logan Brown (eleventh overall) was Don Boyd's territory, but of course Dorion, Mann and Bob Lowes (chief scout at the time, now with Vegas) would have seen him themselves. Being in Windsor, probably Janecyk had some say here too.

Jonathan Dahlen (second) - Vaclav Burda, no longer with the organization (RIP) was head Euro scout. Other guy over there was Mikko Ruutu, now head Euro scout.

2015 - These first two in the first round seem to be Dorion's signature picks. Bryan Murray had never once in his career drafted directly out of USNTDP, and almost never out of the Q, certainly not highly. But then a year before Murray would step down in 2016, comes Thomas Chabot and Colin White in the first round. Clearly the mantle had already been passed.

Thomas Chabot - Presumably Trent Mann had something to do with this pick, which presumably had something to do with his promotion to head scout in 2017.

Colin White - This is Bob Janecyk territory. Also at the time Bill McCarthy (who retired that summer) and Lewis Mongelluzzo (left the organization in 2017).

Filip Chlapik (second) - Ruutu and Burda would have had some say, but probably mostly Mann, Boyd).

Christian Wolanin (fourth) - Again, Bob Janecyk territory.

Filip Ahl (fourth) - Ruutu/Burda.

Joey Daccord (seventh) - Probably mostly Janecyk, maybe Mann, McCarthy.

Click to read more...

 

[MatchesMalone]

The only area scout interview posted on the Sens official website is Bobby Strumm on Lassi Thomson. Very interesting that Strumm was the guy they appointed to speak about Lassi Thomson, not George Fargher or Mikko Ruutu.

I had a mild expectation this might happen. Strumm is actually named after Bryan Murray - Bobby Bryan Murray Strumm. Son of longtime pro scout Bob Strumm who was apparently very close friends of Bryan Murray. In the early 80s Strumm Sr. was GM of the Regina Pats and Murray was the head coach.

After the Sens gave Bobby Strumm his first area pick in Crookshank, who subsequently exponentiated his value, I figured they might give him more of a say on some higher picks this year, but whoa. I'd imagine he was a key player on both Thomsen and Søgaard.

This Strumm will be one to watch; I'm betting he has a future higher up in the organization.

That interview is the only area scout one up on the Sens website. But there's a draft recap from the Ottawa Citizen with quotes.

Head scout Trent Mann gives the quote on Lassi Thomson, as it should be. A lot of fingers in the pot here. Strumm and Fargher in the Dub, and the Euros, especially Mikko Ruutu, would know him from Finland.

Janecyk gave the quote for Pinto, of course. I believe Lincoln and Tri-City would count as US Midwest? So that would also be Dan Boeser.

The only real surprise was that Don Boyd provided the quote for Mads Søgaard. But then I remembered he was also a goalie when he played, so probably he does crossover to look at goalies we're considering, especially that high. Makes me even more excited for Søgaard, as Boyd seems to be consistently our best scout. I'd imagine Fargher was pushing hard for this kid - his Hollet pick looks a lot less bad if the guy Hollet lost his starting job to was just that good. But that's pure speculation. Of course this is also Strumm territory.

Head European scout Mikko Ruutu gave the quote for Viktor Sodin. Of course the other European scouts get partial credit, particularly the Swede, Östberg. As someone else here mentioned, Östberg was actually part of the scouting staff that brought him to Örebro, so it's difficult not to believe this was Östberg's guy.

Fargher did the quote for Kastelic. Not gonna get my hopes up for this player.

Christian De Blois did the quote for Maxence Guenette. Will be a litmus test for De Blois. Of course Boyd and Kyle Flanagan also cover Quebec.

The next step for me, or some tenacious researcher, will be to look back at our scout's scouting records from their previous teams.

I know Strumm scouted for the Portland Winterhawks. He wasn't part of the group that built the dynasty there, but he was part of the group that kept them in contention for years after, despite the three forfeited first rounders for their incentives infractions on Seth Jones and others.

 

[bert]

Posted this in another forum. Figure it is worth putting here for your consideration. Seems to me this is an area that the vast majority of fans don't know or think a lot about. But we're interested in prospects and the draft, and the scouts are the one's who actually deserve all of the credit (and blame) for all that stuff.

First thing I gotta point point out: at least to offset the drastic salary dump, the organization has thrown a bunch of money at scouts. The scouting staff is bigger currently than I've ever seen the Sens'. Up to three scouts in Europe again!

So basically my strategy was to find every possible post-draft team media from the past decade or more, and they typically interview the scouts of a given region about the players drafted from that region; so I credit those picks to those scouts. Better yet, sometimes you can find a head scout or GM give credit to a certain scout for pushing for a player. Any instances of these I give full credit to the scout.

In the second part I just go over the remaining players from recent drafts, and look at who manages the area the player was drafted out of. So the first part is more reliable, but I still think there is some value to the more speculative data. Circumstantial evidence adds up.

Part I: The scouts

Veterans:

Trent Mann - Chief Scout, former goaltender, formerly in charge of QMJHL, so best believe he was in on Kevin Mandolese (2018 sixth) and Francois Brassard (2012 sixth). He also shares primary credit for Batherson (2017 fourth) with Don Boyd. See later: Chabot.

George Fargher - WHL, BCHL - He was specifically involved in Jared Cowen and Curtis Lazar, but I don't pay too much attention to first rounders. The DPPs and head scouts, and the scouting staff as a whole, are all involved in the first rounders (although one guy can have a big impact, see: Anders Forsberg 2008 through 2010). More recently Fargher was involved in Maxime Lajoie (2016 fifth), Chris Driedger (2012 third) and Johnny Tychonick (2018 second, did not have a strong NCAA freshman year).

Mikko Ruutu - Chief European scout - The only two I've found him directly credited for are Christian Jaros (2015 fifth) and Markus Nurmi (2016 sixth) but he'll feature in part II.

Don Boyd - Mostly covers Ontario and Quebec - The only picks I've been able to attribute to him directly were Drake Batherson (2017 fourth) and Gabriel Gagne (2015 2nd).

Bob Janecyk - USHL, NAHL, USNDP, USHS - 2018 picks Johnny Gruden (fourth) and Jakov Novak (seventh) had solid freshmen seasons. Todd Burgess (2016 fourth) just played his third NCAA season, did ok. Tim Boyle (2012 fourth) was a trainwreck of a pick. Robbie Baillargeon (2012 fifth) and Miles Gendron (2014 third) are total flops as well. Max McCormick (2011 sixth) played 71 NHL games. Ryan Dzingel is his most successful late pick, in the seventh round in 2011.

Summer 2017 hires:

Steve Stirling - Retired from a long coaching career then as an assistant in Binghamton, to become head of NCAA recruiting. So if I'm to understand that role, give credit to him for Max Veronneau, and he was probably strongly involved in scouting Brady Tkachuk.

Bobby Strumm - WHL, BCHL - Given credit for Angus Crookshank (2018 fifth), Crookshank is easily the biggest rise in stock of our 2018 crop so far. Could be a real gem.

Dan Boeser - US Midwest - Luke Loheit (2018 seventh) had a particularly uninspiring post-draft season.

Todd Stirling - US Northeast - May have had some say on Gruden and Novak.

Anders Östberg - Europe - Could get partial credit for all of the none Europeans the Sens drafted last year.

Summer 2018 hires:

Christian De Blois - Quebec, Maritimes
Petr Havluj - Europe
Kyle Flanagan - Quebec, Ontario, NCAA

Part II

2018 - All picks have been accounted for in part I, except Bernard-Docker. Don Boyd territory, but of course the chief scout (Mann) should always get top billing on first round picks.

2017 - Late first rounder Shane Bowers was Bob Janecyk's territory.

Alex Formenton (second) - Don Boyd was the only full-time scout concentrated in Ontario at the time, and not to mention he is apparently based out of London.

Jordan Hollet (sixth) - Out of the dub, this would be Fargher's guy.

2016 - Logan Brown (eleventh overall) was Don Boyd's territory, but of course Dorion, Mann and Bob Lowes (chief scout at the time, now with Vegas) would have seen him themselves. Being in Windsor, probably Janecyk had some say here too.

Jonathan Dahlen (second) - Vaclav Burda, no longer with the organization (RIP) was head Euro scout. Other guy over there was Mikko Ruutu, now head Euro scout.

2015 - These first two in the first round seem to be Dorion's signature picks. Bryan Murray had never once in his career drafted directly out of USNTDP, and almost never out of the Q, certainly not highly. But then a year before Murray would step down in 2016, comes Thomas Chabot and Colin White in the first round. Clearly the mantle had already been passed.

Thomas Chabot - Presumably Trent Mann had something to do with this pick, which presumably had something to do with his promotion to head scout in 2017.

Colin White - This is Bob Janecyk territory. Also at the time Bill McCarthy (who retired that summer) and Lewis Mongelluzzo (left the organization in 2017).

Filip Chlapik (second) - Ruutu and Burda would have had some say, but probably mostly Mann, Boyd).

Christian Wolanin (fourth) - Again, Bob Janecyk territory.

Filip Ahl (fourth) - Ruutu/Burda.

Joey Daccord (seventh) - Probably mostly Janecyk, maybe Mann, McCarthy.

Appreciate the effort you made here but I can tell you with absolute certainty its innacurate in regards to who you have given credit to who scouted and selected Batherson, Chabot, Formenton, Brown and Gagner. Justin Murray was a full time scout during this time for the OHL and the QMJHL meanwhile you have given all the credit to boyd.

Mann was 100 percent behind the Batherson pick. He is his guy he has known the player and family for years.

Murray identified Chabot in his 16 year old season i know this because he specifically brough him up to me. He had a very large hand in the Chabot and Gagner picks. He had high ratings on both Formenton and Brown as well. Obviously Mann, and Dorion were involved in these picks too, it was a collective effort I can absolutely assure you.

 

[MatchesMalone]

Lol. With absolute certainty? Don't be silly. Gimme some sources.

Batherson was 100% Mann?

According to the Ottawa Sun, "with the enthusiastic endorsement of chief amateur scout Trent Mann and amateur scout Don Boyd, Senators general manager Pierre Dorion snapped up Batherson"

Senators ‘diamond in the rough’ prospect Drake Batherson tearing up QMJHL

 

[MatchesMalone]

Oh shit. Just noticed I messed up once on the original post. JBD came out of Alberta, so should be Fargher/Strumm's pick, not Boyd's.

 

[Icelevel]

That’s a nice attempt but seems like too much speculation for my liking.

 

[MatchesMalone]

Justin Murray was a full time scout during this time for the OHL and the QMJHL meanwhile you have given all the credit to boyd.

To clarify, I don't doubt that Justin Murray scouted those areas and had some say on the players you mentioned, but I'm more interested in the scouts who are still with the organization.

 

[MatchesMalone]

That’s a nice attempt but seems like too much speculation for my liking.

This is a fair criticism for sure, and is the reason I was very clear from the start about my methodology.

But as long as we take it for what it is, and don't treat it as gospel, there is definite value to be taken from it.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Bob Lowes was still here in 2015. As chief scout he would have had influence on those picks.

after the 2015 draft Lowes quotes

“We picked two very good players. We really didn’t go that far off our chart,” said Lowes. “It wasn’t like we went out of our way to pick positions but in the end it works out very well. We get a top four defenceman and a top three-line forward that could play on the second line.”

"Bob Janecyk had a real good feel for the Daccord kid so we’re excited about that and our European scouts were strong on the guys we picked from Europe. You’ve got to listen to your people and you’ve got to respect the process of how we put our lists together."

On Gagne - SCOUT DON BOYD SAYS: "Big, strong power forward with great size and mobility to score."
"We really felt the other teams were going to take him and we really felt we had to make that move because we were really high on him and excited about him," said chief scout Bob Lowes.
On Chlapik - SCOUT TRENT MANN SAYS: "Skilled centreman with great vision, a creative offensive player."
On Wolanin -SCOUT BOB JANECYK SAYS: "He had a breakout year, we’ve followed him the last three years. He’s an offensive defenceman who can skate the puck and shoot the puck. He’s Craig Wolanin’s son so he’s got good bloodlines."
On Ahl - SCOUT VACLAV BURDA SAYS: "Skill, big body and he’s strong on the puck. He can shoot it. He scored 20 goals in the junior league and that’s pretty good. His dad is a former national team goalie. There’s a hockey background in his case."
On Jaros - SCOUT MIKKO RUUTU SAYS: "He’s a competitive big guy. He’s got his limits and he’s going to figure that out. If he learns his limits, then he might become a player. We just took a chance on him."
On Daccord - SCOUT LEWIS MONGELLUZZO SAYS: "He works at his game. He’s gotten a little better. He works really hard. Anything that happens won’t be for lack of effort if it falls short. He’s going to go to Arizona State. He’s going to see lots of pucks. He’ll really do the best he can. The work ethic he has will make a difference."

 

[Icelevel]

This is a fair criticism for sure, and is the reason I was very clear from the start about my methodology.

But as long as we take it for what it is, and don't treat it as gospel, there is definite value to be taken from it.

Well how much of it do we know with certainty?
If it’s almost none of it, well then....

 

[SENATOR]

Ottawa scouting staff drafted only 6 NHL players in the last 8 years. Steve Yzerman's scouting staff drafted 13 in Yzemran's time there. Leafs drafted in the last 8 years 8 NHLers. The last 8 years were horrible for Ottawa.

 

[MatchesMalone]

Well how much of it do we know with certainty?
If it’s almost none of it, well then....

This is difficult to answer. But I would say for Part I in my original post, there is actually a pretty high level of certainty. Most of it came from interviews like the stuff Sens of Anarchy posted (indeed, that article was one of my sources) where in some cases you even have a head scout like Lowes specifically saying Janecyk had a good feel for Daccord.

And it is pretty safe to assume that when a scout gives an interview on a prospect, the interviewer was directed to that scout by the head scout. So yeah, I'm pretty confident in everything from veterans section of part I.

Part II is much more speculative, but still, if we pick a player out of a given area, then we know for certain our scout for that area had some say on that pick, but it is not always clear how much.

 

[MatchesMalone]

Ottawa scouting staff drafted only 6 NHL players in the last 8 years. Steve Yzerman's scouting staff drafted 13 in Yzemran's time there. Leafs drafted in the last 8 years 8 NHLers. The last 8 years were horrible for Ottawa.

You're funny. I like you.

 

[BondraTime]

Janecyk is in on all of our goalie picks, the most involved.

There is a reason we have been to The Maritimes, (including Bowers) so often in the past few years and that's Mann. Batherson was all him, 100%.

He was also involved in Brown (which was basically the worst kept secret) as everyone on the scouting staff saw a ton of him in our own backyard, and with his Dad being in Ottawa coaching.

 

[MatchesMalone]

Janecyk is in on all of our goalie picks, the most involved.

There is a reason we have been to The Maritimes, (including Bowers) so often in the past few years and that's Mann. Batherson was all him, 100%.

Why do you say Janecyk is "most" involved on the tenders?

I don't buy the idea that the players being from the a place has much to do with how they're scouted or drafted. Bowers is from the maritimes but played for two years in the USHL before drafted. The last time he'd played in Halifax was in midget at 15. You think Mann was already scouting him then?

Batherson makes sense, as he was actually playing in the Maritimes, but again, the Ottawa Sun claims it was Boyd and Mann. I'm not sure what reason we have to doubt that?

 

[BondraTime]

Why do you say Janecyk is "most" involved on the tenders?

I don't buy the idea that the players being from the a place has much to do with how they're scouted or drafted. Bowers is from the maritimes but played for two years in the USHL before drafted. The last time he'd played in Halifax was in midget at 15. You think Mann was already scouting him then?

Batherson makes sense, as he was actually playing in the Maritimes, but again, the Ottawa Sun claims it was Boyd and Mann. I'm not sure what reason we have to doubt that?

Janecyk was a pro goalie for 10+ years, including 6 seasons in the NHL.

No, Mann wasn't actively scouting him then himself, but the teams in the Q, whom Mann has a great rapport with had been. (See De Blois working for Saint John, who happened to draft Bowers at the beginning of his draft season (and also was the guy who identified Saint John to draft Chabot), and Cape Breton who took him 4th the year prior, who also had Batherson). NHL scouts are aware of the guys coming into Junior, especially a guy like Bowers who was a top 3 pick in the Q.

Mann has a lot of connections in the Maritimes.

I'm sure Boyd did see a ton of Batherson once he was brought to the scouting teams attention by Mann, that only makes sense being the other vet located nearby. They are both the top guys on the scouting staff.

 

[MatchesMalone]

Janecyk was a pro goalie for 10+ years, including 6 seasons in the NHL.

No, Mann wasn't actively scouting him then himself, but the teams in the Q, whom Mann has a great rapport with had been. (See De Blois working for Saint John, who happened to draft Bowers at the beginning of his draft season (and also was the guy who identified Saint John to draft Chabot), and Cape Breton who took him 4th the year prior, who also had Batherson). NHL scouts are aware of the guys coming into Junior, especially a guy like Bowers who was a top 3 pick in the Q.

Mann has a lot of connections in the Maritimes.

I'm sure Boyd did see a ton of Batherson once he was brought to the scouting teams attention by Mann, that only makes sense being the other vet located nearby. They are both the top guys on the scouting staff.

Good points, thanks for the input.

 

[topshelf15]

Dont care who they are,they need to find some serious talent ...Or this rebuild will become a decade long one,we have so very little left to move to gain more picks...So they need to hit early and often

 

[BonkTastic]

Janecyk was a pro goalie for 10+ years, including 6 seasons in the NHL.

Janecyk hockey card for reference.
Bonus points for the old Lakers-template kings jersey and dumpy Cooper bucket-mask, haha.