Post-Game Talk: Sens @ Flames - Sat 10PM

[Back in Black]

Late Post-Game Talk, but never less here goes.

I would have pulled Anderson after the 4th Goal. The Coach usually benches a player who makes bad play's and Anderson definitely needs coaching on his "Behind the Net" strategies. Good news is, he's got almost a week of practice to work on it, as we don't play next until Thursday.

He's still #1 in my books, just a bad game for him last night. No surprise now if they go with Lehner on Thursday.

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[Sensfanatic]

Sens just don't have enough team speed.

All three teams we played on this west coast trip were noticeably faster. In today's NHL, you have to be fast and have a very mobile defense. The Sens look very easy to defend through the neutral zone as their transition is frighteningly slow.

Not sure how you address this in the short term. May have to make a move or bring up some young Bingo speed. I think it will be a long season unless Anderson/Lehner are insanely good for entire season.

 

[UnHappyDude]

Maybe I should be posting this in a seperate thread, but is there anywhere I can find a simmary of what teams employ what defensive style aka. Zone defence vs. Man on man?
The biggest problem is our coverage in the D-zone because people keep losing thier assignment; this ha been happening for the past couple years. should this team no switch to a zone defence? who employs man-on-man right now in the NHL?

I will also add that I think Jared Cowan played VERY well. Huge hits, confident pinching, good timing, using his reach and body to protect the puck. I hink he is back into form.

 

[LatteLarrys]

Sens just don't have enough team speed.

All three teams we played on this west coast trip were noticeably faster. In today's NHL, you have to be fast and have a very mobile defense. The Sens look very easy to defend through the neutral zone as their transition is frighteningly slow.

Not sure how you address this in the short term. May have to make a move or bring up some young Bingo speed. I think it will be a long season unless Anderson/Lehner are insanely good for entire season.

In the past few games I've seen, we always begin really strong but then gradually lose our footing. This weakness then seems to become progressively worse throughout the 2nd and 3rd periods as it pressures us to cough up the lead. Well, I'm relieved to know that this road trip is finally over - don't need stay up to midnight to watch us **** the bed .

I wonder how Methot will be faring in practice this week.

 

[Back in Black]

I'm relieved to know that this road trip is finally over - don't need stay up to midnight to watch us **** the bed .

Ya, I PVR'd the 2nd & 3rd and watched it this morning (without hearing the final score).

It's great to skip the commercials and such!

 

[HockeySens]

Cowen has been great. Its not just the confidence but it looks like he has an extra second to make a play and he usually makes the right play. Truly night and day

 

[KnuckChuckinTkachuk]

Cowen played great again, while I think Karlsson is playing through a very minor injury because man he just not using his explosiveness down the middle like he use to.. or at least not consistently.

 

[dumbdick]

I think we have a serious problem with our team systems. Year after year it's the same stupid issues. It's not working, and frankly it's frustrating hockey to watch. I want to clone Ceci and Lazar, and hand everyone else their walking papers.

Lazar - Lazar - Lazar
Lazar - Lazar - Lazar
Lazar - Lazar - Lazar
Lazar - Lazar - Lazar
Condra

Ceci - Ceci
Ceci - Ceci
Ceci - Ceci

 

[Sensinitis]

Lehner's turn now.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

Lehner's turn now.

Nah, continue to run with Andy. Time to give him a chance to bounce back.

Even on the first Flames PP goal it was just a Flames player completely alone in front of the net.

 

[Benjamin]

That games on Anderson. Pretty bad game for him. Two gifted goals.

Cowen was definitely the best dman that game. Played really well. Best I've seen him skating in years.

Karlsson couldn't do anything offensively right.

Get Legwand off the PP. So bad.

Were those Hab fans in the stands? Boos for everything.

Outworked + no offense(No surprise when Legwand line gets so much ice time) + Anderson = loss

I get sheltering the kid line but when we need offense, they should be being pumped ice time. Taken directly from the line with 0 offensively ability. Not the opposite.

 

[Derivation]

Sens just don't have enough team speed.

All three teams we played on this west coast trip were noticeably faster. In today's NHL, you have to be fast and have a very mobile defense. The Sens look very easy to defend through the neutral zone as their transition is frighteningly slow.

Not sure how you address this in the short term. May have to make a move or bring up some young Bingo speed. I think it will be a long season unless Anderson/Lehner are insanely good for entire season.

Who do you suggest the first call-up will be?

Pageau
Puempel
Robinson
Prince

 

[Benjamin]

Maybe I should be posting this in a seperate thread, but is there anywhere I can find a simmary of what teams employ what defensive style aka. Zone defence vs. Man on man?
The biggest problem is our coverage in the D-zone because people keep losing thier assignment; this ha been happening for the past couple years. should this team no switch to a zone defence? who employs man-on-man right now in the NHL?

I've been complaining about this for at least 2 years now. I HATE man on man coverage. Its so easy to exploit.

 

[God Says No]

Sens just don't have enough team speed.

All three teams we played on this west coast trip were noticeably faster. In today's NHL, you have to be fast and have a very mobile defense. The Sens look very easy to defend through the neutral zone as their transition is frighteningly slow.

Not sure how you address this in the short term. May have to make a move or bring up some young Bingo speed. I think it will be a long season unless Anderson/Lehner are insanely good for entire season.

I've been saying this for a while. In terms of team speed they are average. The problem arises when we play a top end fast team. Like Calgary seems to be. They looked really fast out there. That's why I was a big fan of Hoffman being in our lineup.

The problem is exacerbated because our D is actually below average in speed.

 

[Benjamin]

Turris = Fast
MacArthur = Fast
Chiasson = Average
Stone = Average
Zibanejad = Average
Ryan = Slow
Legwand = Average
Michalek = Average
Lazar = Fast
Hoffman = Very Fast
Neil = Slow
Condra = Average
Greening = Average
Smith = Average

Karlsson = Very Fast
Phillips = Slow
Boro = Slow
Gryba = Slow
Wiercioch = Slow
Cowen = Average
Methot = Average
Ceci = Fast

Slow = 6/22 , Average = 10/22 , Fast = 6/22

 

[BonkTastic]

I was responding to a comment Alex1234 made on the GDT, but the GDT got closed while I was writing it, so I'll put it here instead.

And people picking on others instead of arguing intelligently on an internet board is the LAST thing "happening right now" so everything is chill

OK, you want a better answer? I'm kind of burned out with HFSens right now, but I can probably swing this right now.



So the coach has a personal motto of "the best players play", which is so goddamned vague that it could mean anything. Let's brainstorm for a second.

a) "The best players play". Well, what does Maclean consider "best"? Are we talking about skill level? Is he giving Karlsson 30 minutes a game because of skill level, and sits a guy like Greening because he's kind of a scrub on the skills-end of things, despite Karlsson struggling a bit when compared to previous examples of his play? Maybe.

b) "The best players play"... maybe that's an effort thing? "Best players play", as in - "I want guys who are going to play 60 minutes, regardless of skill", and the best effort guys get ice time? That partially explains the GSN line last year, at least.

c) "The best players play"... oh, wait, it's probably a systems thing, right? Best players who play well in Maclean's "200 foot" system get more minutes.

d) "The best players play"... maybe it's an experience thing. Guys with past success in a situation will get called on in the future for similar situations. Easy.

e) "The best players play". Oh, no. It's obvious - it's a usage thing. Best players for this particular part of the game. Best defensive players play in important defensive situations? Best PKers on the PK, right?

f) "The best players play", it's obviously a recency bias thing. Best players who have played well in this particular game will get more minutes in that particular game. Or wait, maybe it's the best players who have played over the past 2 or 3 weeks will get the extra minutes, even if they're not playing particularly well in this particular game, because they've been good lately and therefore this bad play is just a blip on the radar?

g) "The best players play"... that's got team investment written all over it. Guys we drafted high, or are paying big contracts to, or traded a lot for, have to be good players, right?



... So which is it? How do we determine who the "best" players are? Which metric do we use? Oh, "all of them", you say? Well, that makes sense in theory, but that's not what some people do. They see a guy who scored a goal, and decided he's the best player that night. Or they see a guy who made a gaff/ botched a play and decide he's the worst (or clearly not among the best)... but while a bunch of people snidely making sarcastic "best players play" quips, the only thing it does is make for a good sound byte - it offers no analysis whatsoever.

(I want to stress that the following examples are Devil's Advocate arguments)
People want Hoffman to have more icetime than Michalek because of a hot streak. I like Hoffman a lot, but it gets so echo-chamberish in here sometimes that people don't consider what they're asking - do they want Hoffman to get Michalek's defensive assignments, too? Do they consider that Michalek's quality of competition puts him against top lines on a regular basis, and Hoffman has had his minutes managed to the point where he has the easiest minutes of ANY FORWARD on the Sens save for Neil? That maybe (and not specifically, but just maybe) that a lot of Hoffman's recent success on his streak is because he's playing against the Linden Veys of the NHL? So when Hoffman scores, and Michalek (or Chiasson, or Zibanejad, or whoever) gets the next shift against the Sedins or the Bonino/Burrows line, maybe it's not as simple as "guy scored = he's better"?

I mean, the Hoffman example is the easiest to make because that's been a bit of a hot topic on these boards lately, so it's fresh in everyone's minds, but we have people who are taking a very broad, a very nebulous, and a very subjective four word quote and are attributing an exaggeratedly HUGE amount of weight to it... on top of which, it also creates the issue of implied authority on the matter. When a poster makes a complaint about "best players play" they automatically attribute a status to the players being discussed, without ever having had that discussion. Going back to the Hoffman/Michalek example - why are we to trust you when you say Hoffman is the better player? What metrics are you using to judge this? Are you a trustworthy poster, or have an agenda, or are known to be quicker to act & react to things than to assess them? (and I'm not directing this at you, Alex - I'm using "you" in broad terms here - asking questions to a hypothetical poster about a hypothetical post).

"Best players play". Who is the arbiter of what constitutes the "best player"? You? Me? The team? The coach? The GM? rival teams? The press? Do you see how just saying "the best players play" means absolutely nothing as far as discussion is concerned? And I don't want to label the entire discussions on these boards as being this way - there has been a lot of good analysis about a lot of topics lately (and, I should specifically mention the Hoffman one included in this, seeing as how I used it in my examples), but you get these posts (especially during GDTs) about "the best players play", and what it is is one person's opinion ON THE PLAYER being presented as fact, with no evidence or explanation or rationale or anything. It's not even open to debate, because the criticism is ON THE COACH, not the players. It assumes that there's an overwhelming majority consensus on player value. It's just a vague, lazy comment one makes about being angry when we're losing a game, and does nothing to actually analyse why we are losing it.

If we're going to have the discussion about people not arguing intelligently on an internet board and turn it on me for questioning the value of seventeen "best players play" comments, I would first ask what exactly the one-sentence "best players play" comments bring to the "intelligent discussion" table themselves. I've been posting on this site for years now, and I think I'm being fairly accurate when I say that I've been a huge proponent for increasing the level of actual analysis and discussion on these boards. You are preaching to the choir here.

 

[chipsens]

Two-toed sloths. Our D were exploited by Flames speed. I said before game time that Wiercoch shoulda played to give us more mobility and offense. 20/20 hindsight has proved me right once again

Also, good to see Ryan score on wrap-around. Is this the only wrap-around Sens have scored this season?

 

[chipsens]

Zibby needs more AHL time to develop an edge. He only hits guys when he accidentally runs into them. When he was drafted from Sweden I remember hearing that he had a tough streak and would make a dangerous power forward. Some power. Some dangerous. Not.

...and I also wanna chant Pageau, Pageau, Pageau some more, esp vs Habs

 

[bonehead]

I've been saying this for a while. In terms of team speed they are average. The problem arises when we play a top end fast team. Like Calgary seems to be. They looked really fast out there. That's why I was a big fan of Hoffman being in our lineup.

The problem is exacerbated because our D is actually below average in speed.

We are not an average skating team - if we were, we'd be quicker in half our games. To be honest, I can't remember a single game when we were the faster team - everyone looks fast to us. We're slow.

Here's a different cut of our players' skating. It's a harsher standard, but in a fast league "good" is now just average and "adequate" is now slow. Far too many slow players, especially on defense. How will we ever balance SOG or play a "200 foot" game with this type of personnel?

2+3 above avg: [macarthur, hoffman] + [karlsson, ceci, methot]
5+0 average: ...[turris, michalek, lazar, condra, greening]
7+5 below avg: [ryan, chiasson, zibanejad, stone, legwand, smith, neil] + [phillips, cowen, boro, gryba, wiercioch]

 

[HSF]

most teams arent fast cause all their players are fast it has more to do with puck movement and possession

The flames are fast and u can see it on their forecheck but i wouldnt consider Vancouver or Edm overly fast it is their posession and skill especially by their centers is what makes them look fast

We don't have a number 1 center. Welcome to the problem the leafs have had for so long

 

[thinkwild]

I share your frustration with that phrase as a dig at the coach BonkTastic The season is a marathon, and we'll need our vets. It's not just best players play, its also best players for a role. We are trying to develop some roles. And as we start to find some clicking its always exciting. Like Ceci and Cowen. Others like Mika are still a work in progress.

The Stone Lazar Hoff trio was put together by the coach and he has put them in a position to succeed. It does not automatically follow that if you would increase their minutes and quality of competition regularly that they will continue at that pace or even do better. Nor is there a guarantee giving it to them early will help in their development during this marathon season. Lazar especially, maybe Mika should take his spot.

But Hoff has now surpassed the great starts of Brandon Bochenski and Jim Bob Obrien, so there's reason for cautious optimism. Once he has bounced back from his first prolonged slump or two, he may be able to start laying claim to being a best players play player But he's off to a really encouraging start for sure.

 

[Sensinitis]

Turris played a great game. Was attacking the middle of the ice like it was nobody's business.

 

[HSF]

Turris played a great game. Was attacking the middle of the ice like it was nobody's business.

turris is the perfect 2nd line center on a contender

The biggest downfall in his game is his size he gets pushed off the puck easily and those are the nights that him and Macarthur struggle to apply constant pressure. They are off the fly scorer cause they aren't overly big.

I still see the number 1 center spot being a hole on this team ..Will Zibby be that guy? maybe ...maybe not

 

[Sensin5]

To me the main issue on this road trip was the PP, or the complete lack thereof. We had, what, easily a dozen PP chances, including 5 on 3 and got nothing done. Discipline is better now, but we can't pu the puck in the net on the PP. It needs serious work. Would have made all the difference on this trip if we could have potted one or two on the PP.

 

[pm88]

I think this should bring into focus about how we under-appreciated Spezza a bit. Sure he had his faults, but he was that big guy up the middle who could effectively deal with the top d-men every night..and put up points as well.

We have a Leafs-like problem at the moment