Post-Game Talk: Sens 5, Habs 1

[WhiteLight*]

I could possibly see Benn for Spezza being a good deal. I would still be a tentative because there is still a lot of uncertainty around whether he can be a 1st line centre or simply a 1st line winger. We can't really afford to trade Spezza unless we are getting a number 1 centre back.

As for Couture, San Jose we need to add for me to be interested. In terms of a 1-for-1 deal I would think that San Jose would be getting the far better deal.

Benn's a 1st line centre. He was last year and he was extremely productive.


Spezza's age and injury history make either of those trades a slam dunk for Ottawa. You guys are really underrating Couture and Benn

You're talking about a team missing Spezza that had Redden, Chara, Vermette, Fisher, Havlat, Prime Phillips, Prime Alfie and Prime Heatley vs. a team with old man Alfie...old man Phillips, Turris and Karlsson.

This guy will really work at his trolling.

What??

Dude, I used ALL the seasons since 2005, including the bad ones.

AND I compared the record with and without Spezza; the quality of the team means nothing, because it theoretically remains the same except for Spezza when he is in or out (not 100% true, but close enough).

If the stacked 2006-07 team was better without Spezza (which it was), then it's better without Spezza. Maybe Spezza isn't as good as you think?


You have a Huge boner for Spezza. You're so biased, you can't discuss anything involving him rationally.

Couture and Benn are clearly more valuable and desirable players... you're just lucky I didn't say Matt Duchene.

 

[Mephias]

The obvious point that Cujomi was trying to make (and the rest of us can see) is that the numbers don't help your argument if you take out 05-06, 06-07, and 07-08, which come from as many as 6 years ago when the Sens were a lot deeper (frankly, that 05-06 team was STACKED).

EDIT: It's actually EIGHT years, not six.

 

[WhiteLight*]

The obvious point that Cujomi was trying to make (and the rest of us can see) is that the numbers don't help your argument if you take out 05-06, 06-07, and 07-08, which come from as many as 6 years ago when the Sens were a lot deeper (frankly, that 05-06 team was STACKED).

EDIT: It's actually EIGHT years, not six.

My point is, it doesn't matter whether or not they were stacked. For 2 reasons.

1-The stacked team somehow managed to be worse (when they were even more stacked) with Spezza. huh?

2-I considered the bad years in those numbers. It's completely unfair to only use the bad years and completely disregard the good years.



The only year that sticks out where the Sens really struggled without Spezza (in comparison the Sens record with him) is 2010-11. Spezza was lights out in the last 30 games that season. He allowed the Sens to climb from last overall to 5th last. That was the best hockey of his career imo.


In all the other seasons, the Sens were very similar or worse with Spezza in the lineup. Fact.

 

[Mephias]

My point is, it doesn't matter whether or not they were stacked. For 2 reasons.

1-The stacked team somehow managed to be worse (when they were even more stacked) with Spezza. huh?

2-I considered the bad years in those numbers. It's completely unfair to only use the bad year and completely disregard the good years.



The only year that sticks out where the Sens really struggled without Spezza (in comparison the Sens record with him) is 2010-11. Spezza was lights out in the last 30 games that season. He allowed the Sens to climb from last overall to 5th last. That was the best hockey of his career imo.

And it's just coincidence that those 3 years are the furthest years from the present time? Again, it's up to EIGHT years ago. Spezza was as young as 22 back then. There were only about 4 players off the top of my head on those teams that are still around. You think those numbers could make for an accurate prediction on how well the Sens will do this year?

 

[WhiteLight*]

And it's just coincidence that those 3 years are the furthest years from the present time? Again, it's up to EIGHT years ago. Spezza was as young as 22 back then. There were only about 4 players off the top of my head on those teams that are still around. You think those numbers could make for an accurate prediction on how well the Sens will do this year?

I'm often told my sample size isn't big enough. Like the 2-0 this season. Now it's too big?


The point stands. Spezza was way above ppg at that time... now he's at a ppg. Yes he's improved overall, but I wouldn't say he's drastically better considering offense and defense.

 

[Berserker*]

we are talking about two different things. you consider a 4th line according to minutes played. i consider the 4th line by its role. they could be called the 4th line even though their minutes might not reflect that.

stereotypically in the past a 4th line was mostly made up of fighters, grinders, guys hard to play against, etc. this is exactly what the greening - smith - neil line is. and this is what dd is. thusly he will only be called up if a couple of these guys get injured. (i say a couple because j.o.b. could step in that line as well without a callup)

regin is as much as a reliable point producer right now as dacosta or zib. you can't tell me zib with his 2 games is as reliable to produce as much as regin.

as for aragorn's post, i won't even respond. that guy is a broken record.

Traditionally speaking a third line's primary role is to shutdown the first line of the opposition and the fourth line's role is to provide energy. While MacLean may "promote" certain lines in games because they are performing well, he generally reverts back to the traditional roles for the 3rd and 4th lines at the start of each game. On this team, the third line is the Greening-Smith-Neil line and the 4th line (as per the last two games) is Zibanejad-O'Brien-Condra. So I am confused here because you referred to Neil's line as the 4th line when it is the third line on this team.

Just as you stated, the 4th line is traditionally made up of fighters, grinders and guys that are hard to play against. Condra and O'Brien are grinders (so they fit the definition of 4th liners) and Zibanejad (while having the skill and potential to be a top six forward) can play the role of grinder if need be.

So as I stated before, if they decide to promote Zibanejad to 2nd line center than they may call up either Grant or DD to take his spot. Both players fit your description of 4th line players and they would en up playing on the 4th line with O'Brien and Condra.

Aside from that as a few posters have pointed out, realistic expectations for Regin are to put up between 30-35 points in a full season. With there only being around half a season to play that would put the expectations for Regin's point production to be around 15-18 points. With Spezza out of the lineup 15-18 points isn't good enough for a 2nd line center if we are expecting to win many games. Certainly their is a risk that Zibanejad or Da Costa won't put up man points either but both also have the potential to put up more points than Regin.

 

[Mephias]

Forget it...

 

[God Says No]

Traditionally speaking a third line's primary role is to shutdown the first line of the opposition and the fourth line's role is to provide energy. While MacLean may "promote" certain lines in games because they are performing well, he generally reverts back to the traditional roles for the 3rd and 4th lines at the start of each game. On this team, the third line is the Greening-Smith-Neil line and the 4th line (as per the last two games) is Zibanejad-O'Brien-Condra. So I am confused here because you referred to Neil's line as the 4th line when it is the third line on this team.

again, you are too hung up on ice time and labels. lets forget the 4th line thing for a min. even though they are third on the depth chart, they are a stereotypical line that fights, bangs and grinds. (i.e. dd)

the condra - job - zib line is more of defensive, puck possession line. so yes grant could possibly fit in there if you really want to. but i don't believe he can do a better job than what regin is doing now. you are overrating grant and underrating regin. dd has no place on this line.

So as I stated before, if they decide to promote Zibanejad to 2nd line center than they may call up either Grant or DD to take his spot. Both players fit your description of 4th line players and they would en up playing on the 4th line with O'Brien and Condra.

nope, see above. dd doesn't fit in.

Aside from that as a few posters have pointed out, realistic expectations for Regin are to put up between 30-35 points in a full season. With there only being around half a season to play that would put the expectations for Regin's point production to be around 15-18 points. With Spezza out of the lineup 15-18 points isn't good enough for a 2nd line center if we are expecting to win many games. Certainly their is a risk that Zibanejad or Da Costa won't put up man points either but both also have the potential to put up more points than Regin.

really? you think zib or dacosta can put up more than regin? while it's possible, it's unlikely. i'll take a sure nhl'er over an ahl'er.

i get it. you and aragorn are on a quest to bring grant and dd to the promised land. and make the sens the largest and toughest team in the league. but right now regin is a better answer than any of the guys you mention.

 

[Micklebot]

Aside from that as a few posters have pointed out, realistic expectations for Regin are to put up between 30-35 points in a full season. With there only being around half a season to play that would put the expectations for Regin's point production to be around 15-18 points. With Spezza out of the lineup 15-18 points isn't good enough for a 2nd line center if we are expecting to win many games. Certainly their is a risk that Zibanejad or Da Costa won't put up man points either but both also have the potential to put up more points than Regin.

35 points was good for 65th among centers last year. Right there with Cullen, Carter, Antripov. and Connolly. Again, not ideal, but not horrible company. For a rookie to come in with 30-35 pts, would put them in the top 10-15 among rookies. It seems like that's the higher risk to be honest. At that, your saying they could do better, well, so could Regin.

 

[c_mak]

Better without Spezza that is stupid. The numbers or stats do not reflect the amount of focus one team puts on your star players. There is the possibility this team will rally and come together for a very good season that will reflect better goaltending, better coaching and maturing of other players. You don't lose your best player and get better

 

[YNWA14]

Better without Spezza that is stupid. The numbers or stats do not reflect the amount of focus one team puts on your star players. There is the possibility this team will rally and come together for a very good season that will reflect better goaltending, better coaching and maturing of other players. You don't lose your best player and get better

He's not even a good player according to Mandy. We can do without him. Hell, we should consider this a boon...Spezza is just dragging us down.

 

[Wondercarrot]

Not nearly enough value for Tom Wilson. You frequently lambaste guys like Filatov, Regin, and Condra, then suggest they're valuable enough to acquire a young, 1st round, power-forward prospect?


The Latendresse + Filatov deal would be the equivalent of dealing Ceci for a lesser Troy Brouwer + a disinterested Russian in the KHL. If the Caps were after Lats, they would have signed him in the off-season, so the centrepiece of the trade is Filatov?

I don't think so.

Regin + Condra? Caps fans might be a little insulted by that proposal. Regin's value is at an all-time low (he has barely played over the past two seasons) and Condra at his peak is a defensively responsible, offensively questionable 3rd line winger. The two of them hold more value to OTT than on the free market.


A replacement for Neil can be found internally or through free agency. Guys like Wilson are hoping to fit the Lucic prototype, not the Chris Neil mold.

Please find me another Chris Neil either internally or through free agency, in fact find me 2 more. ill take as many as i can get

 

[Wondercarrot]

The point stands. Spezza was way above ppg at that time... now he's at a ppg. Yes he's improved overall, but I wouldn't say he's drastically better considering offense and defense.

well there's your problem right there, you're wrong.

 

[NyQuil]

With almost everyone knocking Regin for his play, and I admit it's mostly deserved, I thought I'd post this comment by MacLean on Regin and Latendresse. I think it's worth remembering how long these two guys have been out.

MacLean, on the struggling Guillaume Latendresse: "I think we have to have a lot of patience with someone that hasn't played for two years, through the injuries. Six games is not really a long time ... I know it's a 48-game schedule, and all of that is a factor. But we need him to find his game, and we're working towards that. I think he's finding that in two years, the league has picked up some speed. It's an adjustment not only he's making, but Peter Regin is making at the same time. Both have missed significant time, and they're trying to get back and find their game. It's going to take a little patience.

I'm glad to see that Paul MacLean is seeing and reacting to what we are seeing as well.

Great communicator as far as coaches go.

I'll support the Paulrus on this one.

 

[Berserker*]

again, you are too hung up on ice time and labels. lets forget the 4th line thing for a min. even though they are third on the depth chart, they are a stereotypical line that fights, bangs and grinds. (i.e. dd)

the condra - job - zib line is more of defensive, puck possession line. so yes grant could possibly fit in there if you really want to. but i don't believe he can do a better job than what regin is doing now. you are overrating grant and underrating regin. dd has no place on this line.



nope, see above. dd doesn't fit in.




really? you think zib or dacosta can put up more than regin? while it's possible, it's unlikely. i'll take a sure nhl'er over an ahl'er.

i get it. you and aragorn are on a quest to bring grant and dd to the promised land. and make the sens the largest and toughest team in the league. but right now regin is a better answer than any of the guys you mention.

DD is the 2nd best defensive forward in Bingo, only behind Grant so yeah he would fit on that 4th line.

So far Regin hasn't been making much of an impact, so it could be worthwhile to give another player a look in his spot. I also think that it is highly likely that he gets scratched in the next few games because with Spezza out every player needs to be making an impact for us to win games sustainably. Yeah there is a risk that they potentially don't make an impact or player worse, but there is also a chance that they make more of an impact. Having watched every game in Bingo this year I am very confident that if either Grant or Dizzy have a strong game they will make a much more substantial impact than what we have seen out of Regin thus far.

Also it doesn't really make much sense why you are hating on DD and Grant. Aside from Da Costa the only other players that were ahead of them in terms of call ups are either injured (Stone, Hoffman) or currently playing on the team (Silfverberg, Zibanejad). Da Costa's playing style is much better suited for a top six center position so he would be the logical choice for a call up. Like I have stated previously if they decide instead to promote Zibanejad to that role then they will demote Regin to the 4th line. Considering the fact that Regin hasn't been making much of an impact this season, it would be worthwhile to take him out of the lineup and give another layer a look.

Aside from that Regin doesn't have a future with this organization. With the Senators being in their 2nd year of a three year rebuild they need to be giving their prospects a look to see if they can take a roster spot either this year or next. Grant and Dziurzynski may actually have a future as bottom six forwards for this organization.

Also I don't underrate Regin, he is a mediocre player. He is a fairly reliable two-way forward who isn't really known as being an impactful player. At this point he is basically just filling a roster spot until our prospects are ready.

 

[YNWA14]

The obvious point that Cujomi was trying to make (and the rest of us can see) is that the numbers don't help your argument if you take out 05-06, 06-07, and 07-08, which come from as many as 6 years ago when the Sens were a lot deeper (frankly, that 05-06 team was STACKED).

EDIT: It's actually EIGHT years, not six.

Pretty much this.

Of course if you take one great player, regardless of how good he is, out of a team full of great players it's not going to have the same impact it would have when taking a great player out of a team full of average players.

The only other player on the team left to carry the load in this case is Karlsson. He's a great person to do it, and obviously Turris and Alfredsson will contribute as well, but ultimately the backbone of our team runs through Spezza, Karlsson and Anderson.

Just to isolate the numbers in the post dominance era:

Since 2009 we are 18 - 24 - 4 (42.8 win percentage with 4 extra points) without Spezza and 104 - 80 - 23 (56.5 win percentage with 23 extra points) with him. If you compare year to year it becomes even more obvious that missing Spezza significantly hurts our team. He is a huge part of our team's success...but then again anyone with half a brain already knew that.

 

[God Says No]

DD is the 2nd best defensive forward in Bingo, only behind Grant so yeah he would fit on that 4th line.

So far Regin hasn't been making much of an impact, so it could be worthwhile to give another player a look in his spot. I also think that it is highly likely that he gets scratched in the next few games because with Spezza out every player needs to be making an impact for us to win games sustainably. Yeah there is a risk that they potentially don't make an impact or player worse, but there is also a chance that they make more of an impact. Having watched every game in Bingo this year I am very confident that if either Grant or Dizzy have a strong game they will make a much more substantial impact than what we have seen out of Regin thus far.

Also it doesn't really make much sense why you are hating on DD and Grant. Aside from Da Costa the only other players that were ahead of them in terms of call ups are either injured (Stone, Hoffman) or currently playing on the team (Silfverberg, Zibanejad). Da Costa's playing style is much better suited for a top six center position so he would be the logical choice for a call up. Like I have stated previously if they decide instead to promote Zibanejad to that role then they will demote Regin to the 4th line. Considering the fact that Regin hasn't been making much of an impact this season, it would be worthwhile to take him out of the lineup and give another layer a look.

Aside from that Regin doesn't have a future with this organization. With the Senators being in their 2nd year of a three year rebuild they need to be giving their prospects a look to see if they can take a roster spot either this year or next. Grant and Dziurzynski may actually have a future as bottom six forwards for this organization.

Also I don't underrate Regin, he is a mediocre player. He is a fairly reliable two-way forward who isn't really known as being an impactful player. At this point he is basically just filling a roster spot until our prospects are ready.

i don't hate dd. i think he's a good player for bingo and an important part of that team. i believe he hasn't made the necessary step in his play this year to give him a shot in ottawa. i've watched a lot of the bingo games as well. i just don't think he, or grant, is better than anyone on the big team roster. you are making a lot of assumptions.

like i said many times previously, the only player i see dd replacing this year is neil. other than that he has no spot on this team.

this discussion boils down to this question. do you think dd or grant is a better player and can bring more to the team than regin. i say no, you say yes.

even pmac mentioned that regin needs time to get into swing of things.

 

[PatrickEaves]

Please find me another Chris Neil either internally or through free agency, in fact find me 2 more. ill take as many as i can get

It's impossible to replace Neil. I mean, name another player in the NHL over the last decade that can do what Neil has done for this club.

The guy turns momentum in games we're doing bad in with timely big hits, big goals, AND big fights, all while being a good third liner.

 

[c_mak]

It's impossible to replace Neil. I mean, name another player in the NHL over the last decade that can do what Neil has done for this club.

The guy turns momentum in games we're doing bad in with timely big hits, big goals, AND big fights, all while being a good third liner.

I think Darren McCarty was like Chris Neil is now. I can't remember if McCarty fought as much. That is how I compare Neil. I still wish we had a little more toughness - hopefully Boroweski can bring some of that toughness and Zack Smith love that kid

 

[Vaclav Varada]

It's impossible to replace Neil. I mean, name another player in the NHL over the last decade that can do what Neil has done for this club.

The guy turns momentum in games we're doing bad in with timely big hits, big goals, AND big fights, all while being a good third liner.

Watching Kassian play in VanCity I think he could become a Neil type guy for the Nucks. And he's got unreal skill too.

 

[Berserker*]

Please find me another Chris Neil either internally or through free agency, in fact find me 2 more. ill take as many as i can get

There is no player in the system or available this off season that brings the exact same skill set to the table as Neil. There are a few players that fight, hit and can put up some points though. They won't be as good at establishing the right time to create a momentum shift, or not taking untimely or undisciplined penalties or likely able to contribute the same either offensively, defensively or both. But if you would like to add a few with some general similarities to Neil then the following are players internally or available this off season:

Internally

LW David Dziurzynski
LW Corey Cowick
LW Darren Kramer


UFA 2013

LW Brenden Morrow
LW Ryane Clowe
RW David Clarkson
LW Matt Cooke
LW Raffi Torres
LW Eric Nystrom
RW BJ Crombeen
LW Pierre Cedric Labrie

RFA 2013

RW Chris Stewart
RW Cal Clutterbuck


Morrow. Clarkson and Clutterbuck are the players from that list that most resemble Neil.

 

[Hammertyme]

I think Darren McCarty was like Chris Neil is now. I can't remember if McCarty fought as much. That is how I compare Neil. I still wish we had a little more toughness - hopefully Boroweski can bring some of that toughness and Zack Smith love that kid

Even though I think that he would like to, I don't think Boro will be fighting. His last fight he had an above the shoulders injury and missed 2-3 weeks.

 

[Vaclav Varada]

According to Stars fans Morrow is a joke now. He does none of the things anymore that made him a beast. Sad to hear. Always loved Morrow's game.

 

[Berserker*]

According to Stars fans Morrow is a joke now. He does none of the things anymore that made him a beast. Sad to hear. Always loved Morrow's game.

If true, that's unfortunate. He used to be a warrior.

 

[TeamRenzo]

I'm glad to see that Paul MacLean is seeing and reacting to what we are seeing as well.

Great communicator as far as coaches go.

I'll support the Paulrus on this one.

I will take the blame for Latendress's poor play. Anytime I have drafted a Senator in my pool they end up having terrible years or get long term injuries. I drafted both Spezza and Lats this year.

The good news is I dropped GL so we should see an improvement...the bad news is I picked up Mika.

Sorry folks...