Confirmed with Link: Seguin/Eriksson mega trade discussion II - Trade talk only, no Seguin BS

[Rookie Chargers]

I agree with this, and I like the trade. But to say anything bad about him because of this party and this weekend is looney toons idiotic, plain and simple. I'm not typing out why again, read my last two posts if you want to know why.

I think it is none of our business now and we don't need help from mom to re-visit it.

 

[David Krejci*]

You refer to people as 'idiots' that look at only one thing. Be it in context or not.
Yet, when those here challenge you about the overall big picture you refer to them as morons.

I find this interesting.

If you don't mind.
How much have you read/ researched the whole?
How old are you?
Do you have teenage or twenty something kids?
Do manage people or own your own business?

Philosophically, do you believe that people are responsible for their action? Should they be held accountable for actions when the culture/ rules are known and applicable to all in population in question?

Do you find it of any interest that concern has been expressed more than once leading up to this by the group? Culminating in Chiarelli and Bergeron having something to say?

I just think before you come in here insulting folks simply because their opinion (many with supporting narrative) differs from yours is childish in and of itself.

Him having this party has nothing to do with big picture stuff. That's the point of this entire thing.

I have read quite a bit about the party and I follow a couple of his friends on twitter, they were already down on the Cape and had rented a house and were having a party when news broke he was traded. Then last night he had a party at his house in Winchester before he headed back to Toronto today for the offseason and then obviously to Dallas next year. Seguin has made a lot of friends here in the Boston area and many of these people he will not see for a very long time.

I'm 24, right in the middle of my party years as some might say, although I don't "party" much and I don't even drink alcohol or do any drugs (not that I look down on it, I just think it's necessary for me to say because I'm sure there are people who think I'm defending him as a way to justify my own actions in the same category).

Like I said I'm 24 so I don't have any teenage kids or any kids at all. I don't manage anyone or own my own business. I'm not sure what you are getting at with that but if you were alluding to the Bruins protecting their investment, so to speak, then I will circle back to what I have already said in the thread. Which is that I was all for trading him in the first place to make room for Horton and that he should ABSOLUTELY be criticized if he was partying during the season and especially the playoffs. But what he does in the offseason, especially (what? a week after the season has ended?) on a holiday weekend in his own house is nobody's business as long as it doesn't effect his job performance (which it obviously doesn't in this case).

Philosophically I do believe people should be held responsible for their actions, as I have explained above. But like I said, in this case, there is nothing to be "held responsible" for, because there is nothing wrong with what he did this weekend and any rational person can see that.

I do find it of much interest that concern was expressed by Chiarelli AND Bergeron, especially in the way that it did. I wanted them to explore trading him before they said any of that stuff, and even moreso afterwards, but like I said, this weekends events does not fall under that category.

I'm not insulting them because their opinion is different than mine, I'm insulting them because their opinion is so out of this world ridiculously dumb that nobody who has a clue would ever think that way. I can handle someone having a different opinion and just agree to disagree, I just think it's incredibly unfair to drag someone's name through the mud when you don't know any of the facts, (especially when that someone was a part of the team that won us The Stanley Cup.)

I think I've made all my points pretty clear and I don't really feel like typing any more, so I'll let you guys take it from here, unless there are any specific questions someone has, I'll be happy to answer.

I think it is none of our business now and we don't need help from mom to re-visit it.

In case you didn't read any of my posts above, I don't even like Seguin, so I'm not sure what you're getting at here with your passive aggressive weak attempt at an insult.

 

[boston77]

I can't find a single thing wrong with his 4th party.

And I don't think the Bruins gave him "plenty" of chances.

Season 1: Although he was the 2nd overall pick, instead of joining a team at the bottom of the barrel he joins a team hoping to compete for a Stanley Cup. He doesn't set the world on fire, but his play shows great promise, including when he was forced into the lineup by injury in the ECF where his Game 2 performance would be a huge part of that series. He the acquits himself just fine in the Stanley Cup Finals. All of this when he is 18/19.

Season 2: He leads the team in scoring while also being a plus 34. He makes the all-star team. In the playoffs he sucks for the first 4 games, before being the Bruins best player n Games 5, 6, and 7. Most of his teammates suck for all 7. He is 20 at season's end.

Season 3: In a lockout shortened season, Seguin has a pretty mediocre year based on expectations, but still puts up 32 points and a plus 23 in 48 games. (In comparison, Milan Lucic is also criticized for inconsistent and disappointing play. He scores 27 points and is a plus 8 in 46 games.) The real problems arise in the playoffs, where Seguin scores only 1 goal in a Cup run the comes up 2 games short. He went from snakebitten in Round 1, to non-existent in Rounds 2 and 3, to all over the map in the Finals, where he doesn't show up in some games, and seems like a Hall-of-Famer in Game 2.

Over the three years his playoff numbers are not equal to his regular season numbers, and there are serious questions about his compete level and willingness to play at a physical level good enough to be great.

Worse, questions about his maturity and off-ice behavior and attitude grow louder.

The Bruins trade him. He is 21.

Were the Bruins really that worried after season 2? Might things have been different if season 3 didn't get delayed until January and the team could have been monitoring his progression, maturity, and behavior the whole time?


I don't think they gave him "plenty" of chances.

THe most important part of your post is bolded above. Playoffs trump regular season always. If Horty doesn't have a good playoff history in 2011 and this year does he get 7 years from Columbus? His regular season is inconsistent at times and he has a concussion history plus a shoulder injury. Not certain Columbus goes all in without the playoff magic. Tyler, like all players are judged based on how they play when the games matter. He failed in his 40 plus games. The only question in my mind , does he fail due to age or can he not compete when ice space is at a premium? These will be answered in Dallas over the next few years.

 

[Gee Wally]

Thanks.
I asked about personal things because I do think demographics have something to do of each individual position. Life experience is typically what goes into forming individual opinion so to that end it helps me better understand from where an individual is coming from. You and I are from complete opposite ends of the spectrum. I am old enough to be your Dad. It factors in.

My read of your remarks appeared to be focused on one isolated incident. Hence I asked about that. I do agree that if this was one isolated off season incident , no biggie. I'd still sit him down and again try to reinforce the day we live in and like it or not he's a public figure, etc...

I appreciate your acknowledge the trend or reported trend and also that there are consequences for ones actions.

I still don't think 'idiot' and ' moron' is a great way of making a discussion. But that's me.

 

[David Krejci*]

THe most important part of your post is bolded above. Playoffs trump regular season always. If Horty doesn't have a good playoff history in 2011 and this year does he get 7 years from Columbus? His regular season is inconsistent at times and he has a concussion history plus a shoulder injury. Not certain Columbus goes all in without the playoff magic. Tyler, like all players are judged based on how they play when the games matter. He failed in his 40 plus games. The only question in my mind , does he fail due to age or can he not compete when ice space is at a premium? These will be answered in Dallas over the next few years.

Agreed, which is why I wanted to explore trading him to fit in Horton before it came out that Horton wanted to walk, and even after. But I don't think it has to do with his compete level or his physicality or any of that. Patrick Kane doesn't play physical, but he scores. I think Seguin actually does compete very well, and backchecks very hard and plays really well defensively for an offensive guy.

The issue is he doesn't see the game well, he doesn't know how to use his speed to back guys off and then slow the game down, his hockey sense is lacking and he's kind of one dimensional, which won't cut it in the playoffs. He's going to make 6mil next year, and doing the little things isn't good enough, he has to produce. There's just something about him that's off, part of it is what I mentioned, but it's more in depth than that and I don't feel like getting too into it. But it's not because he doesn't compete or play physical enough. If there is one thing about him competing, I'll put it like this, I don't think he's figured out how to use his body in one on one battles, I don't think he's afraid or that he doesn't try, he just hasn't figured it out. He'll go into the corner with someone at 100mph and there's all kinds of movement and stick lifting and all that, but nothing is really happening.

 

[EverettMike]

THe most important part of your post is bolded above. Playoffs trump regular season always. If Horty doesn't have a good playoff history in 2011 and this year does he get 7 years from Columbus? His regular season is inconsistent at times and he has a concussion history plus a shoulder injury. Not certain Columbus goes all in without the playoff magic. Tyler, like all players are judged based on how they play when the games matter. He failed in his 40 plus games. The only question in my mind , does he fail due to age or can he not compete when ice space is at a premium? These will be answered in Dallas over the next few years.

Saying the regular season is meaningless and the playoffs are all that matters in predicting future performance is not something I can ever agree with, especially not with such a small sample size nor someone that young.

Steve Yzerman was never going to win. Magic Johnson, even after he had won a title as a rookie (and had an historic clinching Game 6 where he played freaking center) was questioned about his playoff performance.

By your rational those guys would have been moved because only the post-season matters.

Michael Ryder says hello and wants to know where his lucrative extension was.

 

[Rookie Chargers]

In case you didn't read any of my posts above, I don't even like Seguin, so I'm not sure what you're getting at here with your passive aggressive weak attempt at an insult.

You didn't get the context in what I wrote to. Or don't know what HIS mom said/did.

Any ways too many people on horses with no saddles on this Seguin business.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I can't find a single thing wrong with his 4th party.

And I don't think the Bruins gave him "plenty" of chances.

Season 1: Although he was the 2nd overall pick, instead of joining a team at the bottom of the barrel he joins a team hoping to compete for a Stanley Cup. He doesn't set the world on fire, but his play shows great promise, including when he was forced into the lineup by injury in the ECF where his Game 2 performance would be a huge part of that series. He the acquits himself just fine in the Stanley Cup Finals. All of this when he is 18/19.

Season 2: He leads the team in scoring while also being a plus 34. He makes the all-star team. In the playoffs he sucks for the first 4 games, before being the Bruins best player n Games 5, 6, and 7. Most of his teammates suck for all 7. He is 20 at season's end.

Season 3: In a lockout shortened season, Seguin has a pretty mediocre year based on expectations, but still puts up 32 points and a plus 23 in 48 games. (In comparison, Milan Lucic is also criticized for inconsistent and disappointing play. He scores 27 points and is a plus 8 in 46 games.) The real problems arise in the playoffs, where Seguin scores only 1 goal in a Cup run the comes up 2 games short. He went from snakebitten in Round 1, to non-existent in Rounds 2 and 3, to all over the map in the Finals, where he doesn't show up in some games, and seems like a Hall-of-Famer in Game 2.

Over the three years his playoff numbers are not equal to his regular season numbers, and there are serious questions about his compete level and willingness to play at a physical level good enough to be great.

Worse, questions about his maturity and off-ice behavior and attitude grow louder.

The Bruins trade him. He is 21.

Were the Bruins really that worried after season 2? Might things have been different if season 3 didn't get delayed until January and the team could have been monitoring his progression, maturity, and behavior the whole time?

I don't think they gave him "plenty" of chances.

I agree.

This trade really shocked me. A 21 year-old with all that talent. Julien had no problem benching Kessel during the playoffs, but he stuck with Seguin. Still, I would think Seguin isn't Julien's ideal type of winger. Certainly he isn't Neely, either. But I didn't think they would trade him.

Patrick Kane is a young guy that's had off-ice issues but the Hawks didn't unload him. That's worked out pretty well for them. I wonder if there isn't more to this story.

 

[David Krejci*]

Thanks.
I asked about personal things because I do think demographics have something to do of each individual position. Life experience is typically what goes into forming individual opinion so to that end it helps me better understand from where an individual is coming from. You and I are from complete opposite ends of the spectrum. I am old enough to be your Dad. It factors in.

My read of your remarks appeared to be focused on one isolated incident. Hence I asked about that. I do agree that if this was one isolated incident , no biggie. I'd still sit him down and again try to reinforce the day we live in and like it or not he's a public figure, etc...

I appreciate your acknowledge the trend or reported trend and also that there are consequences for ones actions.

I still don't think 'idiot' and ' moron' is a great way of making a discussion. But that's me.

Well first of all I just want to say I appreciate you not seeing the words "idiot" and "moron" in my post and just deleting it immediately like some other mods might. It's not like I was leading with that stuff, those are just enforcement words and it's more to illustrate what I think of a viewpoint than the actual person.

Normally when I see someone who has an opinion that I think is ridiculous I just laugh and toss them on the old ignore list (great feature), but when it's attacking someone's personal character, especially someone who was a part of the best team that most of us have ever seen on here/ever will see, I figured I'd take a bit of time to defend him since I have nothing better to do.

He is a public figure and all of that, but like I said before, there isn't anything wrong with what he did, at all. If he did something wrong, then yes he would obviously be subject to a lot more criticism because of who he is. From a professional standpoint, that's a valid thing, because he is an investment, but in a more personal way I don't think he should be held to a higher standard than anyone else. I think it's unfair and wrong to expect someone to be a role model just because they play hockey for a living. But all of that is kind of a story for a different day, because there isn't anything wrong with a 21 year old having a party and drinking with his friends in his own house on 4th of July weekend in the offseason.

 

[boston77]

Saying the regular season is meaningless and the playoffs are all that matters in predicting future performance is not something I can ever agree with, especially not with such a small sample size nor someone that young.

Steve Yzerman was never going to win. Magic Johnson, even after he had won a title as a rookie (and had an historic clinching Game 6 where he played freaking center) was questioned about his playoff performance.

By your rational those guys would have been moved because only the post-season matters.

Michael Ryder says hello and wants to know where his lucrative extension was.

Sorry but you have completely misunderstood my point. The regular season does matter as it will set you up for a playoff position. However they do call the post season a NEW season for a reason. How many times have teams scraped in and then had great post seasons. When there is a review what do they talk about the poor regular season or the great post season. I watched Yzerman and Magic so what is your point? With Stevey Y he had the label of being a bust precisely because of his poor post seasons. It wasn't until his tenth year that he won a Cup and then a few more, his legacy is based on his Cups not on what he did in the regular season. The entire body of work is important but If I had to pick a player who is superior in the post season and mediocre in the regular season that would be an easy choice.

Michael Ryder is not the type of player I would sign. He is extremely inconsistent. If he happens to be on one of his hot streaks he is dynamite in the playoffs if not he is useless... example 2008/9 13 pts in 11 games for Bos... 2009/10 5 points in 13 games... 2010/11 17 points in 25 games... 2012/13 2 points in 5 games... no comparison to Yzerman or Horrton or Magic try again

 

[EverettMike]

Sorry but you have completely misunderstood my point. The regular season does matter as it will set you up for a playoff position. However they do call the post season a NEW season for a reason. How many times have teams scraped in and then had great post seasons. When there is a review what do they talk about the poor regular season or the great post season. I watched Yzerman and Magic so what is your point? With Stevey Y he had thew label of e=being a bust precisely because of his poor post seasons. It wasn't until his tenth year that he won a Cup and then a few more, his legacy is based on his Cups not on what he did in the regular season. The entire body of work is important but I f had to pick a player who is superior in the post season and mediocre in the regular season that would be an easy choice.

Needless to say you missed my point. Entirely.

 

[David Krejci*]

You didn't get the context in what I wrote to. Or don't know what HIS mom said/did.

Any ways too many people on horses with no saddles on this Seguin business.

Oh I thought you were making a joke that I was his mom because I'm defending him and his partying like she did in the papers the other day. I said I didn't know what you were getting at because I had already said that I'm not a big Seguin guy in the first place and wanted to explore trading him anyway to make room for Horton.

 

[David Krejci*]

I agree.

This trade really shocked me. A 21 year-old with all that talent. Julien had no problem benching Kessel during the playoffs, but he stuck with Seguin. Still, I would think Seguin isn't Julien's ideal type of winger. Certainly he isn't Neely, either. But I didn't think they would trade him.

Patrick Kane is a young guy that's had off-ice issues but the Hawks didn't unload him. That's worked out pretty well for them. I wonder if there isn't more to this story.

The difference is that Kane in his 3rd year had something like 23 points in 20 playoff games, and Seguin in his had 1 goal and 7 assists (was it 7? I forget the exact number). The trade has more to do with his on ice game than it does his off ice. And it's not all in points, either, there's just something that hasn't developed in his offensive game, he has regressed developmentally in that department, which is strange since he's made such great strides defensively and in the neutral zone.

If Seguin had turned into the player we all thought he'd be by now, they would've worked with him more to reign in the off ice stuff, but he hasn't, so they shipped him out. The short season isn't an excuse, his point totals were fine in the regular season, he got off to a slow start but the points would've been there at the end of an 82 game schedule. The issue was his play in the playoffs.

 

[David Krejci*]

Saying the regular season is meaningless and the playoffs are all that matters in predicting future performance is not something I can ever agree with, especially not with such a small sample size nor someone that young.

Steve Yzerman was never going to win. Magic Johnson, even after he had won a title as a rookie (and had an historic clinching Game 6 where he played freaking center) was questioned about his playoff performance.

By your rational those guys would have been moved because only the post-season matters.

Michael Ryder says hello and wants to know where his lucrative extension was.

I think it's a little different here in terms of the Seguin/Yzerman/Magic comparison. Today's NHL is a young man's league and I don't think it was unreasonable to expect Seguin to give them more than he has in these playoffs.

And for the record I wanted them to extend Ryder and it probably cost them vs Washington (along with Horton being out). I also wanted Ryder back at the deadline this year, and yesterday, lol.

EDIT: Sorry for the triple post, I'd merge this one with the others but I don't know how to delete posts. I figured there would be responses in between. Woops.

 

[boston77]

Needless to say you missed my point. Entirely.

This is what you said :

"By your rational those guys would have been moved because only the post-season matters.

Michael Ryder says hello and wants to know where his lucrative extension was."

What exactly is your point? I tried to show how your facetious comment about Ryder is not what I was talking about. You seem to not understand my points? Read my edited post on Ryder

 

[EverettMike]

This is what you said :

"By your rational those guys would have been moved because only the post-season matters.

Michael Ryder says hello and wants to know where his lucrative extension was."

What exactly is your point? I tried to show how your facetious comment about Ryder is not what I was talking about. You seem to not understand my points? Read my edited post on Ryder

I am confidant those reading this thread understood my point, even if they may not agree with me.

 

[boston77]

I am confidant those reading this thread understood my point, even if they may not agree with me.

Likewise...

 

[Krissta]

Relax.

By the way you forgot a period after "I mean".

He also put all his punctuation outside of the quotation marks.

 

[DKH]

I think no matter what side you are on here you have to know the Bruins have more information on this situation than anyone- and the GM is a patient status quo guy. They had 36 months of this guy and the combination of off ice concerns and on ice play led to this. I'd have been fine playing him with Krejci or back with Bergeron but IMO he needed to make adjustments this off season to improve his game. I go to most games and sit second row behind net and my take is he loses way to many battles and does not like contact. Fixable sure but bothersome

 

[puck4877]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7sLy2HOrfE&feature=youtu.be


Pretty good interview with fraser.

 

[Rookie Chargers]

Oh I thought you were making a joke that I was his mom because I'm defending him and his partying like she did in the papers the other day. I said I didn't know what you were getting at because I had already said that I'm not a big Seguin guy in the first place and wanted to explore trading him anyway to make room for Horton.

 

[trenton1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7sLy2HOrfE&feature=youtu.be


Pretty good interview with fraser.

Good find. Lots of Bruins talk before the trade even happened.

 

[DKH]

Well first of all I just want to say I appreciate you not seeing the words "idiot" and "moron" in my post and just deleting it immediately like some other mods might. It's not like I was leading with that stuff, those are just enforcement words and it's more to illustrate what I think of a viewpoint than the actual person.

Normally when I see someone who has an opinion that I think is ridiculous I just laugh and toss them on the old ignore list (great feature), but when it's attacking someone's personal character, especially someone who was a part of the best team that most of us have ever seen on here/ever will see, I figured I'd take a bit of time to defend him since I have nothing better to do.

He is a public figure and all of that, but like I said before, there isn't anything wrong with what he did, at all. If he did something wrong, then yes he would obviously be subject to a lot more criticism because of who he is. From a professional standpoint, that's a valid thing, because he is an investment, but in a more personal way I don't think he should be held to a higher standard than anyone else. I think it's unfair and wrong to expect someone to be a role model just because they play hockey for a living. But all of that is kind of a story for a different day, because there isn't anything wrong with a 21 year old having a party and drinking with his friends in his own house on 4th of July weekend in the offseason.

You really are obnoxious- and to add 'toss me on the old ignore list' (but not before laughing it off- hahaha) I'm not putting you there though because I want to get to respond to your future thinly veiled insults and cheap shots - and what is really kewl is you'll never know

 

[BigBadBruin8]

You really are obnoxious

One more for the ol' list.

Guy is clownshoes.

*CLICK*

 

[du5566*]

I am still pretty shocked about the Seguin trade and I really thought the public trade talk was nothing more than motivation/warning. But I get it..... In the end Seguin had 18 points in 42 career playoff games and completely disappeared this year.

And people really need to stop comparing Seguin to Kane..... Kane gets away with his partying for the most part because he is a beast in the playoffs. When Kane was 21 he had 28 points in 22 playoff games and lead Chicago to a cup victory. You get a little extra leeway on the off the ice stuff when you can perform when it matters most.