Scouting: How Does Minnesota Stack Up?

[Minnesota]

I'm curious to hear some opinions - Do you think teams with a larger scouting staff have a competitive advantage over teams with smaller scouting staffs? Do you think the Wild would benefit from a larger scouting staff? Why or why not?

I used EliteProspects to compare/contrast scouting staffs between all 30 teams across the league.

13 scouts, 1 director of scouting

13 scouts, 2 directors of scouting

17 scouts, 1 director of scouting

15 scouts, 2 scouting coordinators, 3 directors of scouting

19 scouts, 1 director of scouting

15 scouts, 1 director of scouting

22, 1 scouting coordinator, 3 directors of scouting

13 scouts, 3 directors of scouting

16 scouts, 1 scouting coordinator

14 scouts

15 scouts, 3 directors of scouting

16 scouts

10 scouts, 2 directors of scouting

14 scouts, 1 scouting coordinator, 2 directors of scouting

11 scouts, 1 scouting coordinator, 1 director of scouting

17 scouts, 2 directors of scouting

11 scouts, 1 director of scouting

18 scouts, 1 director of scouting

10 scouts, 2 director of scouting

13 scouts, 2 directors of scouting

11 scouts, 2 directors of scouting

15 scouts

15 scouts, 3 directors of scouting

13 scouts, 1 director of scouting

15 scouts, 2 directors of scouting

13 scouts,1 director of scouting

17 scouts, 5 directors of scouting

21 scouts, 1 director of scouting

14 scouts

18 scouts, 3 directors of scouting

Random tid-bits:

• Smallest: NYI/Florida/Nashville (13 people on scouting staff)
• Largest: Chicago (26 people on scouting staff)
• Toronto has a crazy number of analysts & consultants on staff, in addition to 22 scouts
• Chicago has the most staff involved with player development & conditioning
• Vancouver's 21 scouts ain't doing them much good
• Honestly a little surprised the Wild employ such a small scouting staff
• California & Florida teams are drafting great with their relatively small staffs

Click to read more...

 

[Sharppi]

We've been doing relatively ok lately in my opinion. We're finally getting some guys to the NHL from the later rounds too.

I would like to see more scouts on more "obscure" markets like central europe and such. There's bound to be some gems in the rough there. Not necessarily diamonds but gems.

 

[Fremitus Borealis]

I would like to see more scouts on more "obscure" markets like central europe and such. There's bound to be some gems in the rough there. Not necessarily diamonds but gems.

Agreed. I'd love to see us pluck a few players out of even Germany for a change. But it really doesn't seem like we have any guys in Europe outside of Scandinavia.

 

[Minnesota]

We've been doing relatively ok lately in my opinion. We're finally getting some guys to the NHL from the later rounds too.

I would like to see more scouts on more "obscure" markets like central europe and such. There's bound to be some gems in the rough there. Not necessarily diamonds but gems.

Some teams have dedicated directors of scouting in those areas. A few I saw...

- Director of Amateur Scouting
- Director of Professional Scouting
- Director of European Scouting

Didn't see any mention of Russia.

 

[Engebretson]

Based on those figures, it doesn't look like numbers is a clear indicator of success/failure. You have some teams with a lot of scouts (Chicago, Winnipeg) who have done well in the past with their drafting/development while a team like Vancouver has a similar number of scouts yet has not drafted/developed with the same amount of success. On the other end of the spectrum, you have a team like Nashville, with only 12 scouts, who has been successful in their drafts/development while a team like the Islanders has the same number and not nearly the same level of success.

Honestly, I feel like it's more system-based than numbers. The more scouts you accumulate and the more risk you run of getting "too many cooks in the kitchen". At the end of the day, you can have all the scouts in the world and the GM/AGM are the ones making the decisions on draft picks or signing players. It doesn't matter how many scouts you have if they can't convince the decision-makers that a player is worth the risk of drafting/signing.

 

[DANOZ28]

last few years i've been happier with our picks. its hard to measure / compare when our gm has given away so many 2nds & all teams dont pick in the same spot. different years mean different talent levels. so many factors it really boils down to fans getting frustrated if the teams not getting better.

 

[Dickie Dunn]

First round scouting seems much improved, middle rounds still aren't producing much but they seldom have enough picks either.

I hope the scout(s) that thought Vanek would be a good fit were fired.

 

[Victorious Secret]

I've brought this up many times. I put together a chart of where each scout came from (more likely than not) toiling franchises before the Wild. We employ them for long periods of time (Job security despite middling results). Disproportionate amounts of former defensemen to forwards (7 to 4, IIRC).

But I will say, whoever decided to actually look at skilled Russians needs to be outed. Could be franchise altering if they remain on track and stay/come to NA.

 

[Saga of the Elk]

Interesting to see the numbers. But it's not really about the staff, or the structure. It's some kind of odd philosophy coupled with a lack of accountability.

It troubles me that the organization could pick Colton Gillies and James Sheppard and not learn anything.

Brett Bulmer was not just a questionable pick, he was the first pick in that 2nd round that otherwise did very well for the scouts.

Zack Phillips was not just a questionable pick, they traded Brent Burns to get that pick.

Raphael Bussieres was not just a questionable pick, but a ridiculous pick.

They've given up on all those guys of course but consider Gunnarsson, McKinlay, Draeger, Duke, Gustafsson, Sjalin, Belanger, Nanne... it's a crapshoot for sure, but the Wild are behind the curve big time. Even with more picks, little to show for it. The evidence is in the lack of success in Iowa. Even with some veteran signings, the quality depth, the improvements, the promise...almost completely lacking.

Those incremental missed opportunities impact the ability of the club to compete for a championship. (The question of signing guys who don't have NHL upside like Guillaume Gelinas, Alex Gudbranson and Brady Brassart - even relative success stories like Zack Mitchell and Grayson Downing - is another issue but points to the same lack of insight from the scouting staff.)

I hesitate to write off any prospect but at this point 2013 and 2014 are not trending that well either. 2014 especially could be a very tough year to have made some wrong-headed selections. 2015 is full of promise, but where was this approach in 2014?

We shall see.

 

[DANOZ28]

im interested to know did they change their approach / pholosphy or chg staff a couple years ago? i know no gm bats 1000 but just imagine with better drafting or more 2nd rnd picks how much better we could be today!

 

[Minnesota]

im interested to know did they change their approach / pholosphy or chg staff a couple years ago? i know no gm bats 1000 but just imaging with better drafting or more 2nd rnd picks how much better we could be today!

I also considered that - It's possible more/less scouts are on staff today for any given team. I'm sure there are peaks and valleys based on any number of factors. Who knows? It's interested to see now, though.

 

[Wabit]

Hockeys Future had Phillips going a #17oa in 2011 and Brodin going #27oa http://www.hockeysfuture.com/articles/13120/hockeys_future2011_staff_mock_draft/

Bulmer and Bussieres were projected boom or bust 4th rounders IIRC? Too many better options on the board to be taken where they were.

Overall the Wild seem weak at drafting/developing FWD talent. Haula, Zucker, and Granny are the only Wild drafted FWD's that have had any impact in the last few years. These is potential in a few players in the pipeline, but there is a couple of draft years that seem to be dead spots in FWD prospects.

Every team has localized scouts that give their feedback to "official team scouts". I'm guessing a lot of scouting is done on the computers. Also a guess that the GM is looking for type of player that fits the head coaches system. Yoebot type of players before, and now we'll see a focus on the BB type of player.

 

[keppel146]

surprised we don't have a larger staff for sure. you think they split them pretty evenly throughout? I would thinking adding a few more could be beneficial, like 14 or 15.

Back in '12 I sat next to a Leafs scout at a top MNHS matchup when it was 1 vs 2 in the state. He was scouting 4 players that night, and they ended up drafting one in the 4th round that draft.

 

[Wild11MN]

How much of drafting is just luck? It definitely plays a large role. I'm not saying we're unlucky, because we have certainly made some bad picks, but in the end, how you evaluate a draft could depend on whether or not you just got lucky on a 6th round pick.

 

[gphr513]

How much of drafting is just luck? It definitely plays a large role. I'm not saying we're unlucky, because we have certainly made some bad picks, but in the end, how you evaluate a draft could depend on whether or not you just got lucky on a 6th round pick.

I feel like luck has a lot to do with it. Like you said, late round steals can go a long ways, but I feel like almost every pick after like round 4 is pretty much: "Well, he's got some potential. Who knows if he'll ever realize it, though"

 

[Minnesota]

Hockeys Future had Phillips going a #17oa in 2011 and Brodin going #27oa http://www.hockeysfuture.com/articles/13120/hockeys_future2011_staff_mock_draft/

Bulmer and Bussieres were projected boom or bust 4th rounders IIRC? Too many better options on the board to be taken where they were.

Overall the Wild seem weak at drafting/developing FWD talent. Haula, Zucker, and Granny are the only Wild drafted FWD's that have had any impact in the last few years. These is potential in a few players in the pipeline, but there is a couple of draft years that seem to be dead spots in FWD prospects.

Every team has localized scouts that give their feedback to "official team scouts". I'm guessing a lot of scouting is done on the computers. Also a guess that the GM is looking for type of player that fits the head coaches system. Yoebot type of players before, and now we'll see a focus on the BB type of player.

Re: Bolded

The Wild only have 2 development coaches. Teams with larger scouting staffs tend to have larger development staffs as well. For example, Chicago has 4 development coaches and 2 directors of player development.

However, we've known players to hire their own consultants for development. Parise hired Adam Oates for PP help a couple seasons ago, and it's pretty well-known the Wild work with several outside skating coaches.

I agree, player development is an area I'd like to see improved internally.

 

[Minnewildsota]

Re: Bolded

The Wild only have 2 development coaches. Teams with larger scouting staffs tend to have larger development staffs as well. For example, Chicago has 4 development coaches and 2 directors of player development.

However, we've known players to hire their own consultants for development. Parise hired Adam Oates for PP help a couple seasons ago, and it's pretty well-known the Wild work with several outside skating coaches.

I agree, player development is an area I'd like to see improved internally.

If I'm not mistaken, they use Diane Ness for their skating coach?

 

[MN_Gopher]

Every team has busts.

I dont think we have any more than any other team. We may be losing out on that special talent is about all i can see.

 

[Victorious Secret]

I feel like luck has a lot to do with it. Like you said, late round steals can go a long ways, but I feel like almost every pick after like round 4 is pretty much: "Well, he's got some potential. Who knows if he'll ever realize it, though"

Semi. Even these boards can tell if they are a player drafted on merit or otherwise. (Haula, Kaprizov vs Nanne)

2013 was a horrible draft. Both immediate and long-term. Gabriel is another one in the Bulmer/Bussieres slot. That was an absolute throw-away and that was our second highest pick. We can't be taking projects so high.

As others have said, it's also development. And luck. But with such a small development staff, we're relying too much on luck.

 

[Dickie Dunn]

Every team has busts.

I dont think we have any more than any other team. We may be losing out on that special talent is about all i can see.

Fletcher has seemingly been better but Risebrough had a streak of busts that this team is still suffering for. And what's worse is that he seldom if ever hit on a late pick.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

How much of drafting is just luck? It definitely plays a large role. I'm not saying we're unlucky, because we have certainly made some bad picks, but in the end, how you evaluate a draft could depend on whether or not you just got lucky on a 6th round pick.

A lot. Even as soon as getting out of the top 7 or 10 picks in the 1st round. It's a very, very, very inexact science.

Even a scouting staff as praised as Tampa Bay's doesn't get it 100% right and can get it sort of wrong even when they get it right. Example, they definitely deserve credit for identifying a guy like Kucherov in the 2nd round as somebody worth selecting in that spot, but they also had the 28th overall pick that year and passed on him. By their actions, their scouting staff "said" that Namestnikov was going to be a better player, and obviously they were wrong. But it didn't come back to bite them because Kucherov lasted until the end of the 2nd round which you could call good fortune or luck or whatever. Same with Palat in that same year; credit for taking him, but realize that they took players ahead of him, and it's not like that had some secret information that only they knew that he would last until 4 picks to go in the draft.

 

[Dickie Dunn]

I think a good scouting staff can create some of their own good luck. It's true that you just can't always accurately project how a 17-18 year old will develop and yet if luck plays that large a part, the Wild are damn unlucky.

I agree with another person above who was mentioning that there appeared to be something fundamentally wrong with what the Wild were looking for in a player and it can trap an organization into several misses. Wrong sport but look at the Twins and their first round infatuation with soft tossers for so long, none of whom ever panned out. It seems as though the Wild have started to see things differently and have begun selecting players different from their previous molds.

 

[Saga of the Elk]

Fletcher has seemingly been better but Risebrough had a streak of busts that this team is still suffering for. And what's worse is that he seldom if ever hit on a late pick.

Sekeras, Schultz, Boogaard, Veilleux, Harding, Patty O'Sullivan, Khudobin, Ryan Jones, Stoner, Clutterbuck, Justin Falk, and Scandella. That's actually solid work. A few other picks also made the show but didn't hit 200 games. Not sure who deserves credit for Haula... guess we can put him in Fletch's ledger. At this point hard to imagine another non-first round pick besides Jason Zucker playing 200 games for the Wild. But we shall see. I remain thoroughly unimpressed with Fletch's ability to improve talent procurement for this franchise.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Sekeras, Schultz, Boogaard, Veilleux, Harding, Patty O'Sullivan, Khudobin, Ryan Jones, Stoner, Clutterbuck, Justin Falk, and Scandella. That's actually solid work. A few other picks also made the show but didn't hit 200 games. Not sure who deserves credit for Haula... guess we can put him in Fletch's ledger. At this point hard to imagine another non-first round pick besides Jason Zucker playing 200 games for the Wild. But we shall see. I remain thoroughly unimpressed with Fletch's ability to improve talent procurement for this franchise.

Not too hard to imagine Kaprizov at the moment. Greenway, Belpedio and Sokolov also have legit NHL potential IMO.

 

[FrodoBeggins]

really really do not have a scout in Russia in Minnesota? one or two would not hurt