Scotty Bowman's Top 100 Canadian Players

[Big Phil]

I agree but it's pretty obvious with Sid, Jonathan and Drew on Scottys list, he must be using some projection here don't you think?

But that can be a dangerous way of thinking. I remember before lists like these became fashionable and they did the 1998 list with The Hockey News of top 50 players. Jagr was at #37 or something like that. Some people couldn't understand why Lindros wasn't there. It was generally agreed that he was going to be a staple on these future lists someday. Little did they know Lindros didn't do a whole lot after 1998 to add to his career and is far from a top 50 overall player. Jagr on the other hand was a bit too premature in early 1998 to be voted that high as well. Luckily for him he projected as many expected. I guess my point is you never know when a player's career is going to get derailed.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I noticed too late that I was on hfboards from googling about Bowman but in the middle of this I thought I was responding to a recent thread, so sorry about the useless bump.

This list was obviously ridiculous but there's some value into it , like how he ranked players that he coached , and especially those he coached on the same team.

For exemple , someone who tries to argue that Crosby is a top 20 player all-time wouldn't be taken seriously if he used the Bowman list as support , but someone who wants to make a case for Savard ahead of Robinson could use the list as an argument supporter.

I mean Bowman just went out and ranked Savard ahead of Robinson publicly.That should means something somehow even though I still rank Robinson ahead of Savard.Basically what I'm saying is that Bowman's approach to comparing players from different teams/eras is deeply flawed , but knowing the subtleties of this approach isn't required when comparing players he had on his own bench at the same time.

 

[wetcoast]

I noticed too late that I was on hfboards from googling about Bowman but in the middle of this I thought I was responding to a recent thread, so sorry about the useless bump.

This list was obviously ridiculous but there's some value into it , like how he ranked players that he coached , and especially those he coached on the same team.

For exemple , someone who tries to argue that Crosby is a top 20 player all-time wouldn't be taken seriously if he used the Bowman list as support , but someone who wants to make a case for Savard ahead of Robinson could use the list as an argument supporter.

I mean Bowman just went out and ranked Savard ahead of Robinson publicly.That should means something somehow even though I still rank Robinson ahead of Savard.Basically what I'm saying is that Bowman's approach to comparing players from different teams/eras is deeply flawed , but knowing the subtleties of this approach isn't required when comparing players he had on his own bench at the same time.

I just looked up this list for another post in another thread and I couldn't disagree more with the part in bold.

The list can't both look ridiculous and somehow be valuable in how he ranked players he coached.

I think to be charitable one could say that Bowman didn't give a lot of thought to making the list as it's extremely hard to justify the overall rankings and even the players he coached as well.

 

[Dingo]

Yeah, I have a lot of respect for Scotty Bowman and would certainly say that he knows a lot more about hockey than anyone here.

That being said, a single list by a single person is going to have some of their preferences biasing that list. Scotty Bowman included. He seems to favour older players and players that are two-way. That explains players like Gretzky, Coffey and Esposito being lower than most people would put them here.

He also seems to favour goal scorers quite a bit more than playmakers.

Why he has Bryan Trottier on spot above Toews at 62 I can't imagine since Trottier is practically a prototypical Scotty Bowman player. If anything he's too physical for Bowman's type of club hahaha.. who knows..

Anyways, it would be the same for any of us creating a list. Some people prefer offensive artistry, some bone crushing defense etc... and that will end up tie breaking or knocking players down a few notches depending on those preferences.

All this, plus he might not care to nerd out for countless hours getting his list just right, then reviewing it, arguing it out with other people, over and over and over until its a polished turd.

Also seems to have a Leafs’ bias. Keon could be the best Leafs player ever and still not be very good. Like, better than Sittler and Sundin.. whoopedy. And Wendel Clark? ya, he just likes those guys. Like how i would chuck Konstantinov in my list if you asked me years ago before I witnessed just how OCD a person (or group on a forum) can be about this stuff.

 

[JackSlater]

Any of us can say what we will, and I don't really love his list, but it is worth looking at and considering. There is probably no one in history better equipped to make such a list. Likely the greatest hockey coach of all time, and he actually coached (by my count) 40 of these players in competitive situations and coached or coached against 86 of them in competitive situations. Again not a perfect list, but I doubt that any one person in history has a combined knowledge of these players that exceeds Bowman's.

 

[sr edler]

Any of us can say what we will, and I don't really love his list, but it is worth looking at and considering. There is probably no one in history better equipped to make such a list. Likely the greatest hockey coach of all time, and he actually coached (by my count) 39 of these players in competitive situations and coached or coached against 86 of them in competitive situations. Again not a perfect list, but I doubt that any one person in history has a combined knowledge of these players that exceeds Bowman's.

Wendel Clark is ranked above Doug Gilmour.

 

[JackSlater]

Wendel Clark is ranked above Doug Gilmour.

Yes, I am familiar with the list.

 

[Killion]

Yes, I am familiar with the list.

Yeah. Decidedly an offbeat list. Be fun to grill Scotty on it. Y'know, what are you thinkin here Maing? Explain please. Rush job compilation or do you actually have arguable cases, quantifiable & rationale, reasonable explanations for what ya gone & done? He may well have so. Was thinking in terms of team composition & specific lines etc.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Yeah. Decidedly an offbeat list. Be fun to grill Scotty on it. Y'know, what are you thinkin here Maing? Explain please. Rush job compilation or do you actually have arguable cases, quantifiable & rationale, reasonable explanations for what ya gone & done? He may well have so. Was thinking in terms of team composition & specific lines etc.

Scotty probably put as much time into this as it took to write down the names.

 

[Killion]

Scotty probably put as much time into this as it took to write down the names.

Yeah. Throwaway. Off the cuff, top of the head type dealeo.

 

[Thenameless]

Yeah. Decidedly an offbeat list. Be fun to grill Scotty on it. Y'know, what are you thinkin here Maing? Explain please. Rush job compilation or do you actually have arguable cases, quantifiable & rationale, reasonable explanations for what ya gone & done? He may well have so. Was thinking in terms of team composition & specific lines etc.

It might have something to do with things like this. Let's say Gilmour is better than Wendel Clark in a vacuum. Maybe, Bowman figures that there are a lot centers that can do what Gilmour can do, and even do it better. While Clark, on the other hand, brings something a little different to the table - timely sniping, a different brand of heart & soul, and some Kelvington style fisticuffs. This kind of player would have certainly been useful on the 70's Habs dynasty that he coached against the Big Bad Bruins.

 

[Killion]

It might have something to do with things like this. Let's say Gilmour is better than Wendel Clark in a vacuum. Maybe, Bowman figures that there are a lot centers that can do what Gilmour can do, and even do it better. While Clark, on the other hand, brings something a little different to the table - timely sniping, a different brand of heart & soul, and some Kelvington style fisticuffs. This kind of player would have certainly been useful on the 70's Habs dynasty that he coached against the Big Bad Bruins.

Yeah. If you change the concept from a Top 100 or whatever to actual implementation, team composition, execution.... who's better at what, personality & character etc, building an entire team or perhaps thinking fractionally in putting together Special Teams & so on, translation absolutely required then ya, makes sense. But head-head or one on one, not so much. Out from the vacuum, from black & white to full color. The other thing is that Scotty very likely had a higher opinion of certain players than their more heralded counterparts in that he didnt feel they ever reached their full potential under others, that he would have employed their services differently & much more effectively. That they didnt actually realize their full potential.

 

[Iron Mike Sharpe]

Six years & 14 pages in, it's interesting I'm the first person curious to see how Bowman ranked the players he coached.

1. Bobby Orr
2. Gordie Howe
3. Maurice Richard
4. Mario Lemieux
5. Wayne Gretzky
6. Doug Harvey
7. Eddie Shore
8. Howie Morenz
9. Jean Beliveau
10. Bobby Hull
11. Guy Lafleur
12. Dave Keon
13. Henri Richard
14. Mark Messier
15. Sidney Crosby
16. Raymond Bourque
17. Jacques Plante
18. Frank Mahovlich
19. Terry Sawchuk
20. Serge Savard
21. Denis Potvin
22. Glenn Hall
23. Mike Bossy
24. Dickie Moore
25. Steve Yzerman
26. Brad Park
27. Larry Robinson
28. Bernard Geoffrion
29. Norm Ullman
30. Alex Delvecchio
31. Joe Sakic
32. Bobby Clarke
33. Bob Gainey
34. Scott Niedermayer
35. Elmer Lach
36. Patrick Roy
37. Gilbert Perreault
38. Jacques Lemaire
39. Guy Lapointe
40. Phil Esposito
41. Ted Lindsay
42. Red Kelly
43. Syl Apps
44. Milt Schmidt
45. Johnny Bucyk
46. Marcel Dionne
47. Yvan Cournoyer
48. Martin Brodeur
49. Scott Stevens
50. Cam Neely
51. Jean-Claude Tremblay
52. Michel Goulet
53. Steve Shutt
54. Ken Dryden
55. Bernard Parent
56. Bert Olmstead
57. Bill Barber
58. Pierre Pilote
59. Eric Lindros
60. Darryl Sittler
61. George Armstrong
62. Bryan Trottier
63. Jonathan Toews
64. Chris Pronger
65. Tom Johnson
66. Jean Ratelle
67. Glenn Anderson
68. Paul Coffey
69. Ron Francis
70. Andy Bathgate
71. Luc Robitaille
72. Grant Fuhr
73. Red Berenson
74. Larry Murphy
75. Al MacInnis
76. Denis Savard
77. Joe Nieuwendyk
78. Billy Smith
79. Rick MacLeish
80. Martin St-Louis
81. Tim Horton
82. Jacques Laperriere
83. Tony Esposito
84. Steven Stamkos
85. Brendan Shanahan
86. Bob Pulford
87. Wendel Clark
88. Rob Blake
89. Rod Gilbert
90. Guy Carbonneau
91. Shea Weber
92. Doug Gilmour
93. Johnny Bower
94. Gump Worsley
95. Ed Belfour
96. Dino Ciccarelli
97. Dick Duff
98. Drew Doughty
99. Dave Andreychuk
100. Mark Recchi


1. Mario Lemieux
2. Doug Harvey
3. Guy Lafleur
4. Henri Richard
5. Jacques Plante
6. Frank Mahovlich
7. Serge Savard
8. Glenn Hall
9. Dickie Moore
10. Steve Yzerman
11. Larry Robinson
12. Bob Gainey
13. Gilbert Perrault
14. Jacques Lemaire
15. Guy Lapointe
16. Yvan Cournoyer
17. Jean-Claude Tremblay
18. Steve Shutt
19. Ken Dryden
20. Bryan Trottier
21. Paul Coffey
22. Ron Francis
23. Red Berenson
24. Larry Murphy
25. Jacques Laperriere
26. Brendan Shanahan
27. Dino Ciccarelli
28. Dave Andreychuk
29. Mark Recchi

 

[JackSlater]

Six years & 14 pages in, it's interesting I'm the first person curious to see how Bowman ranked the players he coached.

1. Bobby Orr
2. Gordie Howe
3. Maurice Richard
4. Mario Lemieux
5. Wayne Gretzky
6. Doug Harvey
7. Eddie Shore
8. Howie Morenz
9. Jean Beliveau
10. Bobby Hull
11. Guy Lafleur
12. Dave Keon
13. Henri Richard
14. Mark Messier
15. Sidney Crosby
16. Raymond Bourque
17. Jacques Plante
18. Frank Mahovlich
19. Terry Sawchuk
20. Serge Savard
21. Denis Potvin
22. Glenn Hall
23. Mike Bossy
24. Dickie Moore
25. Steve Yzerman
26. Brad Park
27. Larry Robinson
28. Bernard Geoffrion
29. Norm Ullman
30. Alex Delvecchio
31. Joe Sakic
32. Bobby Clarke
33. Bob Gainey
34. Scott Niedermayer
35. Elmer Lach
36. Patrick Roy
37. Gilbert Perreault
38. Jacques Lemaire
39. Guy Lapointe
40. Phil Esposito
41. Ted Lindsay
42. Red Kelly
43. Syl Apps
44. Milt Schmidt
45. Johnny Bucyk
46. Marcel Dionne
47. Yvan Cournoyer
48. Martin Brodeur
49. Scott Stevens
50. Cam Neely
51. Jean-Claude Tremblay
52. Michel Goulet
53. Steve Shutt
54. Ken Dryden
55. Bernard Parent
56. Bert Olmstead
57. Bill Barber
58. Pierre Pilote
59. Eric Lindros
60. Darryl Sittler
61. George Armstrong
62. Bryan Trottier
63. Jonathan Toews
64. Chris Pronger
65. Tom Johnson
66. Jean Ratelle
67. Glenn Anderson
68. Paul Coffey
69. Ron Francis
70. Andy Bathgate
71. Luc Robitaille
72. Grant Fuhr
73. Red Berenson
74. Larry Murphy
75. Al MacInnis
76. Denis Savard
77. Joe Nieuwendyk
78. Billy Smith
79. Rick MacLeish
80. Martin St-Louis
81. Tim Horton
82. Jacques Laperriere
83. Tony Esposito
84. Steven Stamkos
85. Brendan Shanahan
86. Bob Pulford
87. Wendel Clark
88. Rob Blake
89. Rod Gilbert
90. Guy Carbonneau
91. Shea Weber
92. Doug Gilmour
93. Johnny Bower
94. Gump Worsley
95. Ed Belfour
96. Dino Ciccarelli
97. Dick Duff
98. Drew Doughty
99. Dave Andreychuk
100. Mark Recchi


1. Mario Lemieux
2. Guy Lafleur
3. Henri Richard
4. Jacques Plante
5. Frank Mahovlich
6. Serge Savard
7. Glenn Hall
8. Steve Yzerman
9. Larry Robinson
10. Bob Gainey
11. Gilbert Perrault
12. Jacques Lemaire
13. Guy Lapointe
14. Yvan Cournoyer
15. Jean-Claude Tremblay
16. Steve Shutt
17. Ken Dryden
18. Bryan Trottier
19. Paul Coffey
20. Ron Francis
21. Red Berenson
22. Larry Murphy
23. Jacques Laperriere
24. Brendan Shanahan
25. Dino Ciccarelli
26. Dave Andreychuk
27. Mark Recchi

Even if ignoring the players Bowman coached internationally, he did coach Moore for a year in St. Louis.

 

[Iron Mike Sharpe]

Interesting to note on players Bowman ranked who he coached:

- He obviously believed Richard was the heart & soul of his team, & also valued his top notch defensive play. Richard is probably underrated by fans of today & people in this forum... very nice to see him ranked so high.

- Ranked Plante over Hall, just like he did in St. Louis when it came down to it.

- Apparently never worked with a Canadian goalie again who was anywhere near in the class of Plante & Hall - Dryden ranks 32 rungs under Hall.

- As mentioned above, he ranked Savard over Robinson, which suggests he valued Savard's stay-at-home ethic over the riskier two-way play of Robinson.

- I was surprised Gainey was ranked so low, particularly when one considers how highly he valued Richard.

- Red Berenson, the heart & soul of Bowman's expansion Blues squad, ranks in the top 100, & I'm sure he would only ever rank in Bowman's top 100. Obviously Berenson left a very big impression on Bowman in his first years as an NHL coach.

- Andreychuk is Bowman's only draft pick as GM on the list.

- Given the presence of Berenson, Andreychuk, Recchi, Ciccarelli, etc. on the list, Pete Mahovlich, who thrived under Bowman, is perhaps a little conspicuously absent.

- Would be very interesting to see where he would've slotted in various non-Canadian players in his rankings - Fedorov, Fetisov, Lidstrom, Hasek, Barrasso, Housley, etc., or if a dark horse like Mike Ramsey would've made the list.

 

[Killion]

Even if ignoring the players Bowman coached internationally, he did coach Moore for a year in St. Louis.

Yeah. And he wouldve been well familiar with Dickie Moore. Montreal Boy, staple of the Habs, Junior on up. Brilliant player.

 

[Iron Mike Sharpe]

Even if ignoring the players Bowman coached internationally, he did coach Moore for a year in St. Louis.

Yes, & Doug Harvey's comeback, as well, forgot about both. I'll edit to reflect that, thanks!

 

[Canadiens1958]

Six years & 14 pages in, it's interesting I'm the first person curious to see how Bowman ranked the players he coached.

1. Bobby Orr
2. Gordie Howe
3. Maurice Richard
4. Mario Lemieux
5. Wayne Gretzky
6. Doug Harvey
7. Eddie Shore
8. Howie Morenz
9. Jean Beliveau
10. Bobby Hull
11. Guy Lafleur
12. Dave Keon
13. Henri Richard
14. Mark Messier
15. Sidney Crosby
16. Raymond Bourque
17. Jacques Plante
18. Frank Mahovlich
19. Terry Sawchuk
20. Serge Savard
21. Denis Potvin
22. Glenn Hall
23. Mike Bossy
24. Dickie Moore
25. Steve Yzerman
26. Brad Park
27. Larry Robinson
28. Bernard Geoffrion
29. Norm Ullman
30. Alex Delvecchio
31. Joe Sakic
32. Bobby Clarke
33. Bob Gainey
34. Scott Niedermayer
35. Elmer Lach
36. Patrick Roy
37. Gilbert Perreault
38. Jacques Lemaire
39. Guy Lapointe
40. Phil Esposito
41. Ted Lindsay
42. Red Kelly
43. Syl Apps
44. Milt Schmidt
45. Johnny Bucyk
46. Marcel Dionne
47. Yvan Cournoyer
48. Martin Brodeur
49. Scott Stevens
50. Cam Neely
51. Jean-Claude Tremblay
52. Michel Goulet
53. Steve Shutt
54. Ken Dryden
55. Bernard Parent
56. Bert Olmstead
57. Bill Barber
58. Pierre Pilote
59. Eric Lindros
60. Darryl Sittler
61. George Armstrong
62. Bryan Trottier
63. Jonathan Toews
64. Chris Pronger
65. Tom Johnson
66. Jean Ratelle
67. Glenn Anderson
68. Paul Coffey
69. Ron Francis
70. Andy Bathgate
71. Luc Robitaille
72. Grant Fuhr
73. Red Berenson
74. Larry Murphy
75. Al MacInnis
76. Denis Savard
77. Joe Nieuwendyk
78. Billy Smith
79. Rick MacLeish
80. Martin St-Louis
81. Tim Horton
82. Jacques Laperriere
83. Tony Esposito
84. Steven Stamkos
85. Brendan Shanahan
86. Bob Pulford
87. Wendel Clark
88. Rob Blake
89. Rod Gilbert
90. Guy Carbonneau
91. Shea Weber
92. Doug Gilmour
93. Johnny Bower
94. Gump Worsley
95. Ed Belfour
96. Dino Ciccarelli
97. Dick Duff
98. Drew Doughty
99. Dave Andreychuk
100. Mark Recchi


1. Mario Lemieux
2. Guy Lafleur
3. Henri Richard
4. Jacques Plante
5. Frank Mahovlich
6. Serge Savard
7. Glenn Hall
8. Steve Yzerman
9. Larry Robinson
10. Bob Gainey
11. Gilbert Perrault
12. Jacques Lemaire
13. Guy Lapointe
14. Yvan Cournoyer
15. Jean-Claude Tremblay
16. Steve Shutt
17. Ken Dryden
18. Bryan Trottier
19. Paul Coffey
20. Ron Francis
21. Red Berenson
22. Larry Murphy
23. Jacques Laperriere
24. Brendan Shanahan
25. Dino Ciccarelli
26. Dave Andreychuk
27. Mark Recchi

Bowman also coached Harvey and Moore in St.Louis. Darkened but not ranked.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Bowman valued skating,defensive abilities, integrating a team and the willingness to play hard.

Skating - whole game vs a few shifts or period.

Serge Savard, even post broken legs, was a better skater than Larry Robinson.Spin moves,finesse at high speed,transition. Conversely, Trottier and Pete Mahovlich were maybe high average skaters as centers.

Gilmour did not integrate well. Had to be the #1 center.

Bowman also valued the "hard" players. Howe, Moore, Olmstead, Gainey, Armstrong, Clark, Pulford, Shanahan, etc.

 

[The Panther]

We might be taking these lists a bit too seriously. Most of these guys, incl. Bowman, probably forgot to do it until Sunday night at 10:30, and then they were suddenly like, "Sh**, I have to fax that list by tomorrow morning!", and they whipped it together off the tops of their heads in, like, 10 minutes.

 

[quoipourquoi]

We might be taking these lists a bit too seriously. Most of these guys, incl. Bowman, probably forgot to do it until Sunday night at 10:30, and then they were suddenly like, "Sh**, I have to fax that list by tomorrow morning!", and they whipped it together off the tops of their heads in, like, 10 minutes.

No doubt, but Glenn Anderson directly over Paul Coffey... at least draw an arrow from Coffey’s name to the spot above Anderson’s to signify some attachment to this world.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

No doubt, but Glenn Anderson directly over Paul Coffey... at least draw an arrow from Coffey’s name to the spot above Anderson’s to signify some attachment to this world.

Bowman did get rid of Coffey twice. Anderson fits in with some of the other scrappy, gamer types that you knew were always going to show up in big games. Clark, Olmstead, Duff...Anderson isn't out of place when you consider those guys are also on his list. It starts to look less peculiar when you think of it in terms of "I'm a coach and these are the guys I want to go to war with".

 

[GordieHowsUrBreath]

Crosby at # 15 sticks out like a sore thumb.

There is no way he is ahead of the likes of Clarke, Sakic, Bourque, Yzerman, Roy, Plante, Brodeur, Bossy and Trottier.

he is now

 

[Killion]

No doubt, but Glenn Anderson directly over Paul Coffey... at least draw an arrow from Coffey’s name to the spot above Anderson’s to signify some attachment to this world.

Why? He had issues with Paul Coffey. Issues that are obvious to anyone who either grew up during the Great Depression or War Years... to the children of those that did & played whatever sport at appreciable levels.

 

[streitz]

We might be taking these lists a bit too seriously. Most of these guys, incl. Bowman, probably forgot to do it until Sunday night at 10:30, and then they were suddenly like, "Sh**, I have to fax that list by tomorrow morning!", and they whipped it together off the tops of their heads in, like, 10 minutes.

Maybe for the lower ranked players but he clearly put thought into the top 5.




For those who don't speak French

1) Orr- Talks about how he changed the game and how well rounded on defense and offense he was even though he didn't play a long time ect.
2-3) Didn't say much about Howe and Richard aside they were the best players of the 40's-50's

Then when discussing Lemieux- Gretzky he mostly mentions how Lemieux's ability to play through injuries, the fact he was able to nearly match Gretzky's points with much less support.



Again Gretzky fans can try to discredit his opinion as much as they want, every time anyone questions Gretzky as the GOAT his fans have the same hilarious/insane reactions. lol