Scotty Bowman in Buffalo: What's the Story?

[The Panther]

I've always wanted to know more about Scotty Bowman's 7+ years with the Sabres (1979 to autumn 1986, I think). I understand that Sam Pollock didn't want Bowman to be Montreal's GM, so Bowman, probably in spite, took the coach/GM position in Buffalo.

(I must say, I don't get why Pollock wouldn't give Bowman the position he wanted. Bowman had been coaching since the early 60s or something, at the NHL level for 12 years by 1979, and had won everything in sight, usually in a better way than anyone, ever. Why the heck wouldn't Montreal have let him try his hand as GM? But I digress...)

Anyway, Bowman's Buffalo period seems a mixed-bag. The team had a great season his first year there (1979-80), still the third-best RS in franchise history. The Sabres finished ahead of Montreal in the standings (which must have been sweet for Bowman), had the League's 3rd-best offense, and very best defence (the Bowman trademark). They fell to the champion Islanders in six in the playoffs, but they were very near to making the Cup Finals. Things must have looked good. Perreault was still in his (late) 20s, Danny Gare had scored 56 goals to lead the League, and obviously team defence was working for them. But then Bowman decided to stop coaching...

After that first year, Bowman tried replacing himself with different head coaches: Roger Neilson in 1980-81 (lasted only one season because...? I don't know), Jimmy Roberts in 1981-82 (fired after 45 games; Bowman took over), and finally Jim Schoenfeld in 1985-86 (fired after 43 games; Bowman took over). The period roughly 1980-81 through 1984-85 saw the Sabres having above-average regular seasons, but little playoff success (they did nearly knock off 1st-overall Boston in 1983 with Bowman behind the bench, but lost in game seven overtime).

Finally, the Sabres hit bottom in 1985-86 (missed playoffs) and 1986-87 (last overall). Bowman was fired a dozen games into the 1986-87 season.

I sort-of have the impression that Bowman wanted to become the new Sam Pollock and build him team from the sidelines, but he was just an average GM and in fact was much, much better at coaching. But he didn't really want to coach, I think. (Maybe Sam Pollock was right...?) It also occurs to me that perhaps Bowman's veteran-preferring, defence-first mentality just didn't suit the times. The early/mid-80s was a time of youth in the NHL, and of high-scoring and chance-taking play. I dunno.

Anyway, any thoughts or knowledge you have about this, please share. What was Bowman's downfall after the mid-80s in Buffalo? Maybe drafting wasn't so hot in this era. I see the 1980 and 1981 drafts for Buffalo were mostly busts. In 1982 they got Housley and Andreychuk, and Barrasso in 1983, so that was good. Kind of middling drafts again for a few years after that, though.

Click to read more...

 

[Pominville Knows]

Bowman came to have that all-time ranking of his that reeked of emotions and teenage fandom. Maybe he was just not suited for the job, much like Gretzky's coaching gig.

 

[CharlestownChiefsESC]

Bowman was more upset that the Molson's installed Irving Grundman as the Habs GM after Pollock stepped down in 1978. Bowman thought the job should be his and in reality Grundman was a business guy not a hockey guy. Bowman felt that he won 4 cups with the Habs including 3 in a row at the time and the GM job should be his. As a result he left after 78-79 because he would not work under Grundman

 

[tony d]

Bowman seems to have made more sense as a coach than a GM. It happens. Look at Gretzky, best player ever but was awful as a coach.

 

[Hobnobs]

Bowman gets a lot of unwarranted crapping on his time in Buffalo. He wasn't an all time great GM but if you listen to people here it will sound like he did absurd things and was a bottom rated GM all time.

I think the biggest problem with Bowman though is that he was too hands on and couldnt leave coaching alone. Add that he made a couple of bad trades at the end of his time in Buffalo you could see why he was fired. He built a strong core by drafting Barrasso, Puppa, Housley, Andersson, Cyr, Tucker, Andreychuk, Calle Johansson, Krupp and a few more.

Heres a quote from his former boss and one of the greatest GMs of all time Sam Pollock

'They're somewhat related,' Pollock said. 'Bowman had an outstanding record as a coach and general manager at St. Louis. He was a great coach in Montreal. Let's not talk about Buffalo as though they're a team that has been on the bottom. The only reason they weren't in the playoffs last season was because of the division they were in.'

 

[Voight]

The whole being coach GM thing at the same time doesnt always work. Sather pulled it off, but while spending all that time coaching he neglected the draft/scouting to an extent and the Oilers collapsed in the 90s.

The thing with Bowman's Buffalo years is they come sandwiched between his Habs Dynasty and then his successful run with PIT, which was followed by his time with Detroit. So not very memorable when each end of his tenure had him winning cups.

 

[CharlestownChiefsESC]

which was followed by his time with Detroit.

Remember he went to Detroit thinking he would grab the GM job if he won a few cups almost like what he thought in Montreal.

 

[Hobnobs]

Remember he went to Detroit thinking he would grab the GM job if he won a few cups almost like what he thought in Montreal.

Well he was co-GM for a while in Detroit as well as orchestrating some of the most celebrated trades on here together with Jim Devellano.

 

[Staniowski]

I think everybody agrees Bowman was a very good coach - I've never heard anyone say otherwise. But we should also remember that few (if any) NHL coaches have ever had the opportunity and good fortune that he had.

The Habs were the defending Cup champions when Bowman began coaching them in the fall of '71. Everybody knows the quality of their players - they could ice at least 1/3 of Team Canada in the '70s.

The Penguins were also the defending Cup champs when Bowman took over. A deep group of very good players.

The Red Wings had finished 5th overall the year before Bowman began, had one of the superstars of the league in Yzerman, plus one of the best groups of young players in the NHL in Fedorov, Lidstrom, etc.

The Sabres were a decent team too, finishing 7th overall the year before Bowman joined the team. They weren't as good as the other 3 teams...and that's likely why he wasn't as successful there.

He appeared to do a great job coaching in Montreal and Detroit, etc. But, he would almost certainly be regarded a lot differently if he had coached several below-average teams, rather than all-time great teams.

 

[Hobnobs]

I think everybody agrees Bowman was a very good coach - I've never heard anyone say otherwise. But we should also remember that few (if any) NHL coaches have ever had the opportunity and good fortune that he had.

The Habs were the defending Cup champions when Bowman began coaching them in '72. Everybody knows the quality of their players - they could ice at least 1/3 of Team Canada in the '70s.

The Penguins were also the defending Cup champs when Bowman took over. A deep group of very good players.

The Red Wings had finished 5th overall the year before Bowman began, had one of the superstars of the league in Yzerman, plus one of the best groups of young players in the NHL in Fedorov, Lidstrom, etc.

The Sabres were a decent team too, finishing 7th overall the year before Bowman joined the team. They weren't as good as the other 3 teams...and that's likely why he wasn't as successful there.

He appeared to do a great job coaching in Montreal and Detroit, etc. But, he would almost certainly be regarded a lot differently if he had coached several below-average teams, rather than all-time great teams.

Expansion Blues is an all-time great team?

 

[Staniowski]

Expansion Blues is an all-time great team?

Of course not.

I'm talking about Montreal (8 seasons), Pittsburgh, and Detroit.

 

[LeBlondeDemon10]

Of course not.

I'm talking about Montreal (8 seasons), Pittsburgh, and Detroit.

The problem is not what he did with the Blues, but the context in which he did it. St. Louis was put in a division with the other 5 expansion teams in 1967 so they were the best in their respective division. They were not necessarily the second best team in the league despite getting to the finals 3 years in a row. Had the NHL had balanced the divisions, its quite likely they never make the final.

 

[Hobnobs]

Of course not.

I'm talking about Montreal (8 seasons), Pittsburgh, and Detroit.

Well you say we would think differently about Bowman if he didnt coach these all-time great teams. Why do you think he got to coach these teams? The thing is hes still better than other coaches who never really coached a below average team either. Like Quenneville, Arbour, Blake...

 

[Hobnobs]

The problem is not what he did with the Blues, but the context in which he did it. St. Louis was put in a division with the other 5 expansion teams in 1967 so they were the best in their respective division. They were not necessarily the second best team in the league despite getting to the finals 3 years in a row. Had the NHL had balanced the divisions, its quite likely they never make the final.

He still coached a team that beat those other expansion teams and kept dynasty habs to one goal game wins in the finals. And its not like Blues were out classed by the O6 teams in the regular season either.

 

[FerrisRox]

I've always wanted to know more about Scotty Bowman's 7+ years with the Sabres (1979 to autumn 1986, I think). I understand that Sam Pollock didn't want Bowman to be Montreal's GM, so Bowman, probably in spite, took the coach/GM position in Buffalo.

(I must say, I don't get why Pollock wouldn't give Bowman the position he wanted. Bowman had been coaching since the early 60s or something, at the NHL level for 12 years by 1979, and had won everything in sight, usually in a better way than anyone, ever. Why the heck wouldn't Montreal have let him try his hand as GM? But I digress...)

Strange you are questioning this. Based on the results of Bowman as a General Manager Sam Pollock - and absolutely brilliant sports executive - was absolutely right to not give him the General Manager's job in Montreal.

 

[Staniowski]

Strange you are questioning this. Based on the results of Bowman as a General Manager Sam Pollock - and absolutely brilliant sports executive - was absolutely right to not give him the General Manager's job in Montreal.

So, in the summer of '78, Molson Breweries take over ownership of the Habs from some of the Bronfman family, Pollack quits as GM around the same time. Who actually hired Irving Grundman? Did Pollock just give advice, or was he involved in the hiring more directly? Was he still in senior management? (I know he was still an executive in some capacity until the following summer, when he left the team for good).

 

[double5son10]

Canadiens actually did offer Bowman the GM gig, it's a myth that they didn't, but it wasn't total control, which is what Bowman craved and what he got in Buffalo. Beliveau, in his autobiography, talks about why the Canadiens wouldn't give him total control, that he was impulsive, that if a player was in a funk he'd burst into Pollocks office and demand that player be traded.

As I say, the Sabres gave Scotty total control, and boy was he ever controlling. His trades and drafts are a mixed bag. Drafted some fine players but was never able to land a franchise defining star to replace the aging Perrault. Where Bowman totally failed as GM was that he couldn't just let his coaches coach. He was constantly interferring with them to the point that he had a direct line put in from his box to the bench and would call down in the middle of games and tell his bench bosses how to do their jobs.

 

[Hobnobs]

Canadiens actually did offer Bowman the GM gig, it's a myth that they didn't, but it wasn't total control, which is what Bowman craved and what he got in Buffalo. Beliveau, in his autobiography, talks about why the Canadiens wouldn't give him total control, that he was impulsive, that if a player was in a funk he'd burst into Pollocks office and demand that player be traded.

As I say, the Sabres gave Scotty total control, and boy was he ever controlling. His trades and drafts are a mixed bag. Drafted some fine players but was never able to land a franchise defining star to replace the aging Perrault. Where Bowman totally failed as GM was that he couldn't just let his coaches coach. He was constantly interferring with them to the point that he had a direct line put in from his box to the bench and would call down in the middle of games and tell his bench bosses how to do their jobs.

Ironically, after the season he was fired he most likely would have landed that franchise star.

 

[FerrisRox]

So, in the summer of '78, Molson Breweries take over ownership of the Habs from some of the Bronfman family, Pollack quits as GM around the same time. Who actually hired Irving Grundman? Did Pollock just give advice, or was he involved in the hiring more directly? Was he still in senior management? (I know he was still an executive in some capacity until the following summer, when he left the team for good).

I don't know the answer, but I strongly suspect that Pollock was involved in finding his successor.

 

[Chainshot]

Canadiens actually did offer Bowman the GM gig, it's a myth that they didn't, but it wasn't total control, which is what Bowman craved and what he got in Buffalo. Beliveau, in his autobiography, talks about why the Canadiens wouldn't give him total control, that he was impulsive, that if a player was in a funk he'd burst into Pollocks office and demand that player be traded.

As I say, the Sabres gave Scotty total control, and boy was he ever controlling. His trades and drafts are a mixed bag. Drafted some fine players but was never able to land a franchise defining star to replace the aging Perrault. Where Bowman totally failed as GM was that he couldn't just let his coaches coach. He was constantly interferring with them to the point that he had a direct line put in from his box to the bench and would call down in the middle of games and tell his bench bosses how to do their jobs.

From what various Sabre alumni have said, scotty was a combination of hubris and ego in his time as general manager. He was supremely attached to his draft picks, even going so far as convincing the Penguins to deal a capable scoring winger in Tanti for Ken Priestlay because of his obsession with Kenny. He freely recalled players from the CHL, resulting in revision of the CHL-NHL agreement. Dave Andreychuk, John Tucker, Priestlay all got yo-yo’d. And a veteran who stood up to him when he stepped behind the bench was almost invariably traded. There was talk that he acquired Cloutier to get back at Real for spurning the Habs to go to the WHA instead of joining the Canadiens (Yes, I am aware that this was the Sabres, but it was one of the things speculated by columnists in town at the time.)

He was unwilling to leave coaches to coach. He thought he could do a better job and would re-insert himself behind the bench. And his methods behind the bench require someone without the ability to toss players aside as was shown in Pittsburgh and Detroit.

 

[Voight]

Canadiens actually did offer Bowman the GM gig, it's a myth that they didn't, but it wasn't total control, which is what Bowman craved and what he got in Buffalo. Beliveau, in his autobiography, talks about why the Canadiens wouldn't give him total control, that he was impulsive, that if a player was in a funk he'd burst into Pollocks office and demand that player be traded.

As I say, the Sabres gave Scotty total control, and boy was he ever controlling. His trades and drafts are a mixed bag. Drafted some fine players but was never able to land a franchise defining star to replace the aging Perrault. Where Bowman totally failed as GM was that he couldn't just let his coaches coach. He was constantly interferring with them to the point that he had a direct line put in from his box to the bench and would call down in the middle of games and tell his bench bosses how to do their jobs.

That was the main problem, at that point he was already one of the best coaches of all time (at least top 10/15) and just couldn't bare to have someone else coach. Bit of an ego thing too.

 

[reckoning]

The Sabres were dead last in the NHL when he was fired. There's no way to sugarcoat that. It was time for him to go.

He was very good at following the Pollock model of acquiring draft picks and young players, but a lot of them didn't pan out. As mentioned by others in this thread, the biggest problem was trying to micromanage the coaches. If you don't want to coach anymore, and he insisted that he didn't, then you have to let it go. Give your replacement the freedom to do the job his way, then either fire or keep him based on the results.

After things fell through with Montreal, the job Bowman really wanted was to be Toronto's GM. He left Buffalo hanging for awhile because he was waiting for Ballard to make him a serious offer, which never came. The only reason he agreed to coach the Sabres in his first year there was in return for them giving him an extra two weeks to decide whether to accept the job or not.

 

[The Panther]

Yeah, looking back at the coaching hires/fires, it's all a bit odd. Roger Neilson coached the Sabres to a 99-point, 1st place, two-rounds-of-playoffs season... and then was fired. The next season, Jimmy Roberts was at 21-16-8 when Bowman axed him. (In fairness, Roberts' pace was for 82 points, which would have been borderline playoffs or not, and Bowman did a bit better when he replaced him so they made it in handily enough.) Then in 1985-86, Schoenfeld was at .500 when Bowman fired him, and Bowman then managed to coach them at... .500.

So, the three coaches Bowman fired in Buffalo had a combined 79-55-34 record, and each lasted an average of 56 games. It does seem like the boss just didn't trust his hires.

 

[ShelbyZ]

He was supremely attached to his draft picks,

Makes sense with some of the stuff he did in Detroit...

Mike Ramsey: 1st guy Bowman drafted for the Sabres. Eventually followed Bowman to Pittsburgh and then to Detroit. Ramsey chose to retire and go back to Minnesota after 95-96, but Bowman begged him to come back when the Wings were looking to add a veteran D before the 96-97 trade deadline. Ramsey came back and played a couple of games, but decided to go back to retirement. The Red Wings then opted to trade for Larry Murphy (a former Bowman player as well, albeit not a draft pick).

Uwe Krupp: I don't know that Bowman lobbying had a ton to do with Krupp's initial signing in Detroit, since he was the best Dman available that summer. However, IIRC, when Krupp decided to come back and try to play the last year of the deal, Bowman was all for it. Despite him looking slow and missing most of the year hurt, Bowman insisted on plugging Krupp into the line-up to start the 2002 playoffs over Freddie Olausson and Jiri Slegr. Krupp ends up going -5 in the first 2 games of the first round and then gets replaced by Olausson.

He also had guys like Bob Halkidis and Mark Ferner brought to Detroit early in his tenure.

 

[Hobnobs]

Makes sense with some of the stuff he did in Detroit...

Mike Ramsey: 1st guy Bowman drafted for the Sabres. Eventually followed Bowman to Pittsburgh and then to Detroit. Ramsey chose to retire and go back to Minnesota after 95-96, but Bowman begged him to come back when the Wings were looking to add a veteran D before the 96-97 trade deadline. Ramsey came back and played a couple of games, but decided to go back to retirement. The Red Wings then opted to trade for Larry Murphy (a former Bowman player as well, albeit not a draft pick).

Uwe Krupp: I don't know that Bowman lobbying had a ton to do with Krupp's initial signing in Detroit, since he was the best Dman available that summer. However, IIRC, when Krupp decided to come back and try to play the last year of the deal, Bowman was all for it. Despite him looking slow and missing most of the year hurt, Bowman insisted on plugging Krupp into the line-up to start the 2002 playoffs over Freddie Olausson and Jiri Slegr. Krupp ends up going -5 in the first 2 games of the first round and then gets replaced by Olausson.

He also had guys like Bob Halkidis and Mark Ferner brought to Detroit early in his tenure.

There were also the rumour about Primeau to Tampa for Gratton++ with one of the players added being Mikael Andersson.

Now we shoudl keep in mind that it was just a rumour and it was after negotiation with Hartford had stalled or fallen through for the time being prior to the season opener.

He also traded for Errey.