Scott Niedermayer's career

[Dr.Huxtable*]

Yes, and backed it up on +/- which is one of the funniest things to read around here.

Leetch was great defensively. He was not ELITE, but he was a great defensive player. Not only because he was able to keep the puck in the zone but because he had a great 1st pass and was one of the steadiest defenseman on the Rangers fans have ever seen.

I would definitely call him a great defensive player. He was the ONLY semblance of a defensive player when the Rangers were in their awful years.

I mean, look at the rosters!

Also, Coffey's offense was a step above Leetch's, IMO. That really enabled him to play the "best defense is a good offense" type of game and I think that, again, he gets unfairly bashed for his defense which while worse than Leetch's was nowhere near as bad as a guy like Phil Housley's.

Stop rewriting history. I saw Leetch play on a regular basis and I realized that he was a great defenseman and he was fun to watch. But he was not a great defensive player and to say he was is laughable.

All you Rangers fans are amazing. You crow about the greatness of your players but whenever people bring up the stats you all have the same response about how those Ranger teams were awful. Richter can't be an all time great with his numbers and Leetch can't be called a GREAT defensive player when he has 1028 points and is only a +25.

 

[pnep]

Yup.

I'd go:
Chelios
Brimsek
Leetch
Modano
??? Possibly Mullen or Burch.

Player|Seasons|POS|HHOF Monitor
Brett "The Golden Brett" Hull |1985-06|RW|2089,45
Frank "Mr. Zero" Brimsek |1938-50|G|2070,00
Chris "Cheli" Chelios |1983-06|D|2023,40
Brian "Leetchie" Leetch |1987-06|D|1325,90
Tom "Tomcat" Barrasso |1983-03|G|1282,50
Rod "Secretary of Defense" Langway |1978-93|D|1133,70
Mike "Mo" Modano |1988-06|C|1052,50
John "Johnny Vermont" Leclair |1990-06|LW|1044,50
Joe Mullen |1979-97|RW|1010,00
Mark Howe |1979-95|D|1007,15

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

Compared to the average NHL defenseman sure you can say Leetch was great or even elite defensively, but when comparing him to the top defensemans ever he is pretty average.

Scott Niedermayer is probably the guy that benefitted the most from the rules changes. What good is skating ability when you can play bearhug defense? As great as he was this year, I think last year when he set himself apart as one of the best without having Stevens, Brodeur, New Jersey defense, insert random other excuse here was better. I wish Pahlson or however you spell his name had gotten the MVP since I love seeing defensive guys get recognition, but Niedermayer had a great playoffs and seeing him do it for his brother was a good storyline.

 

[pavel13]

Nieds has proven that he is a better all-around player than Leetch ever was.
Leetch was all-offense and could not lead his team to the playoffs for about 6 seasons in a row. Nieds hands down better than Leetch.

On Anaheim, Niedermayer frequently plays as a forward, while Pahlsson or Getzlaf play defense. Niedermayer's production is also really inconsistent. In 99-00, the Devils were the second highest scoring team in the NHL. Niedermayer had 38 points in 71 games.

I see Niedermayer as an inconsistent offensive defenseman who is not great defensively but benefitted from playing in sound defensive systems that were very team-oriented.

 

[Sojourn]

On Anaheim, Niedermayer frequently plays as a forward, while Pahlsson or Getzlaf play defense. Niedermayer's production is also really inconsistent. In 99-00, the Devils were the second highest scoring team in the NHL. Niedermayer had 38 points in 71 games.

I see Niedermayer as an inconsistent offensive defenseman who is not great defensively but benefitted from playing in sound defensive systems that were very team-oriented.

Well, you're in the minority.

As for his production... it was pretty consistent the past two years.

 

[#66]

On Anaheim, Niedermayer frequently plays as a forward, while Pahlsson or Getzlaf play defense. Niedermayer's production is also really inconsistent. In 99-00, the Devils were the second highest scoring team in the NHL. Niedermayer had 38 points in 71 games.

I see Niedermayer as an inconsistent offensive defenseman who is not great defensively but benefitted from playing in sound defensive systems that were very team-oriented.

Great post. Niedermayer's a great player but a little over-rated IMO. He had a good playoff but I can think of at least 3 Ducks more deserving of the Conn Smyth.

I also think that Leetch was a better defenseman and I hate the Rangers. Leetch ran a better PP and was better offensively while I think that he was also better defensively. Those Ranger teams in the mid-90's didn't come close to giving Leetch the defensive support that Niedermayer has gotten as both a Devil and Duck.

 

[bert]

Maybe number two of this era, definitely not of all-time.

Did you watch the Detroit series? Niedermayer got beaten clean a few times, by a rookie (Filppula) two or three times. Lidstrom is still the best in the league. Please tell me you're not serious when you say Scott is the best player in the league. He looked pretty average in the Detroit series, IMO. Lidstrom finished the playoffs with 18 points in 18 games, Niedermayer 11 in 21. I saw Lidstrom get cleanly beaten maybe once in the playoffs, by Iginla in the first round. I saw Niedermayer get beaten more than once in one game.

Id take Scott Niedermayer any day of the week over Lidstrom.

 

[12# Peter Bondra]

Id take Scott Niedermayer any day of the week over Lidstrom.

Im not sure many people would.

 

[Ricelund]

Id take Scott Niedermayer any day of the week over Lidstrom.

You also think Scott Niedermayer is the best player in the league.

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

Id take Scott Niedermayer any day of the week over Lidstrom.

I'd take Eric Brewer over both of them.

 

[Randall Graves*]

On Anaheim, Niedermayer frequently plays as a forward, while Pahlsson or Getzlaf play defense. Niedermayer's production is also really inconsistent. In 99-00, the Devils were the second highest scoring team in the NHL. Niedermayer had 38 points in 71 games.

I see Niedermayer as an inconsistent offensive defenseman who is not great defensively but benefitted from playing in sound defensive systems that were very team-oriented.

Niedermayer has been fairly consistant offensively since moving on from New Jersey.(and really the last 3 seasons)

And he is absolutely great defensively, not sure where you are getting that from, and if he does jump into the play he almost always is able to get back defensively anyways..

 

[nik jr]

Nieds has proven that he is a better all-around player than Leetch ever was.
Leetch was all-offense and could not lead his team to the playoffs for about 6 seasons in a row. Nieds hands down better than Leetch.

leetch was equal or better defensively and clearly superior offensively.

 

[ish]

Let me start off by saying that I've admired Scott Niedermayer for a long time and have always been a fan of his, even when he was a Devil (I'm a Ranger fan). He's probably one of my favorite players of all time. But I also think he's one of the most overrated players in recent history. He isn't nearly as good as people will have you believe.

He's been in the league for 14 years if you don't count 1991-92, when he played 4 games, and 2004-05, obviously the lockout year. How many of those years was he HOF good? I say 4-6 at the most. People talk about him like he's a living legend. No one really jumped on his bandwagon until fairly recently, like 5-6 years ago. Not too many HOFers (don't get me wrong I think he should be one) have had such a quiet first 7-9 years of their career. Five years into his career, 1996-97, no one was tooting his horn. He wasn't getting serious Norris consideration. But all of a sudden he's all time great? I don't quite follow.

He was always considered a good player but it seems like overnight people started acting like he was already in the Hall and only building on his second-to-none resume. Maybe it's because he's a cool player in a way. He has a cool style and demeanor on the ice, always making calm, slick plays. I don't know. Again, I love the guy but if he's a top 100 player all-time, he barely squeaks in there on my list.

As far as Leetch goes, his biggest problem is that he played the entire second half of his career on terrible teams. Playing 27-30 minutes a night with the likes of Kevin Hatcher, Peter Popovic, Boris Mironov, and Dave Karpa. Leetch's career taken as a whole doesn't compare to guys like Stevens, MacInnis, and Chelios. But none of them were anywhere near as dominant as Leetch at his best. At his best Leetch controlled games and could almost single-handedly win a game. Dust off those '94 playoff highlights for proof. Incredible.

 

[Spitfire11]

He's been in the league for 14 years if you don't count 1991-92, when he played 4 games, and 2004-05, obviously the lockout year. How many of those years was he HOF good? I say 4-6 at the most. People talk about him like he's a living legend. No one really jumped on his bandwagon until fairly recently, like 5-6 years ago. Not too many HOFers (don't get me wrong I think he should be one) have had such a quiet first 7-9 years of their career. Five years into his career, 1996-97, no one was tooting his horn. He wasn't getting serious Norris consideration. But all of a sudden he's all time great? I don't quite follow.

Lidstrom is in the same boat and he's a sure fire HOFer. It's because they started at the same time Chelios, Bourque, Leetch, MacInnis, Stevens were all in their 'primes' and it's kind of hard to establish yourself as a Norris candidate with those all-time great defensemen around. As they started to dwindle, other defensemen finally got their shots in the spotlight.

Look at everything he's won, and he played a major part of 4 Cup winners on what were by no means powerhouse teams. In a 26-30 team league too.

I think he benefited immensely from playing in the era he did and for NJ (he's one of the best obtructers I've seen), but he is still around 15 in terms of all-time great defenseman in my book.

 

[ish]

Lidstrom is in the same boat and he's a sure fire HOFer. It's because they started at the same time Chelios, Bourque, Leetch, MacInnis, Stevens were all in their 'primes' and it's kind of hard to establish yourself as a Norris candidate with those all-time great defensemen around. As they started to dwindle, other defensemen finally got their shots in the spotlight.

Look at everything he's won, and he played a major part of 4 Cup winners on what were by no means powerhouse teams. In a 26-30 team league too.

I think he benefited immensely from playing in the era he did and for NJ (he's one of the best obtructers I've seen), but he is still around 15 in terms of all-time great defenseman in my book.

I agree about the fact that early in his career there were plenty of great dmen in their prime but I think Lidstrom's career blows away Niedermayer's. Lidstrom won three straight Norris' after, I believe, being the runner up three years in a row. If he wins this year, he'll have won 5 out of 6 and have finished at least second in Norris voting 8 of 9 years. That speaks for itself. No one though Niedermayer matched up to Lidstrom at any time from roughly 1996-2000.

 

[Dartmouth 02]

Lidstrom is in the same boat and he's a sure fire HOFer. It's because they started at the same time Chelios, Bourque, Leetch, MacInnis, Stevens were all in their 'primes' and it's kind of hard to establish yourself as a Norris candidate with those all-time great defensemen around. As they started to dwindle, other defensemen finally got their shots in the spotlight.

But IMO theres a key difference there. He may not have been getting Norris votes, but Lidstrom's greatness was evident a good 3 years before the accolades came pouring in. I know its just antecdotal evidence, but dig up any old stories from those pre-Wings "dynasty" years. Teammates were raving about him pretty early on.

 

[pavel13]

Lidstrom is in the same boat and he's a sure fire HOFer. It's because they started at the same time Chelios, Bourque, Leetch, MacInnis, Stevens were all in their 'primes' and it's kind of hard to establish yourself as a Norris candidate with those all-time great defensemen around. As they started to dwindle, other defensemen finally got their shots in the spotlight.

Look at everything he's won, and he played a major part of 4 Cup winners on what were by no means powerhouse teams. In a 26-30 team league too.

I think he benefited immensely from playing in the era he did and for NJ (he's one of the best obtructers I've seen), but he is still around 15 in terms of all-time great defenseman in my book.

Niedermayer is not in the same boat as Lidstrom. Niedermayer wasn't producing consistently in the first, well, basically his whole career, unless you want to count his two seasons with Anaheim as being "consistent." Lidstrom was the runner-up for the Norris in his seventh season. He's been top two in Norris voting every year since then except for one. And even before then, he was getting Norris votes. He was sixth in Norris voting in 96 and 97. The most recent year that Lidstrom didn't win, he was sixth. So he was top six in Norris voting for over a decade. It took Niedermayer 12 seasons before he was a Norris finalist. The year before he won, he was behind Tomas Kaberle and Dan Boyle. In 99, he was 12th in Norris voting. Behind Phil Housley. 98 he was fifth. Lidstrom got a Norris vote in '94, just his third season in the NHL.

Lidstrom is arguably top ten all-time among defensemen right now. Niedermayer could finish in the top 20.

 

[Dartmouth 02]

Lidstrom is arguably top ten all-time among defensemen right now. Niedermayer could finish in the top 20.

I dont think the first part is arguable at all. Hes top 10 right now for sure. I think top 20 is about right for where Nieder will end up.

 

[Drewr15]

For the Leetch - Niedermayer comparisons I think everyone is forgetting that Leetch was pretty bad defensively in the beginning of his career and it wasn't until Mike Keenan who was benching Leetch and forcing to get better in his zone that he became such a great 2 way defenseman.

I don't think Nieder is as good as Leetch offensively but is more solid than Leetch in his zone. And personally, in his prime, I would take Lidstrom over both.

 

[mrhockey193195]

I'm a huge Leetch fan, and obviously biased, but here'd be my top American players of all time:

1. Chelios
2. LaFontaine
3. Leetch
4. Brimisak
5. Modano
6. Mullen


In terms of peak, I don't think any of those players were any better than Leetch. Chelios, LaFontaine, and Leetch, at their peaks, were phenominal. Mainly because of my bias, I'd take Leetch instead of the other two. But for anyone to say that it's far and away one of those three players is doing the other two a major disservice.

 

[mmfs*]

What about Frank "Mr. Zero" Brimsek ?

What about LaFontaine.

 

[Spitfire11]

I agree about the fact that early in his career there were plenty of great dmen in their prime but I think Lidstrom's career blows away Niedermayer's. Lidstrom won three straight Norris' after, I believe, being the runner up three years in a row. If he wins this year, he'll have won 5 out of 6 and have finished at least second in Norris voting 8 of 9 years. That speaks for itself. No one though Niedermayer matched up to Lidstrom at any time from roughly 1996-2000.

Agreed, I was by no means comparing them as players just explaining why you didn't hear much about Niedermayer earlier in his career.

Personally I'd like to get away with ranking Lidstrom at #5 and ranking Niedermayer at #15, give or take a rank or two.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Niedermayer is not in the same boat as Lidstrom. Niedermayer wasn't producing consistently in the first, well, basically his whole career, unless you want to count his two seasons with Anaheim as being "consistent." Lidstrom was the runner-up for the Norris in his seventh season. He's been top two in Norris voting every year since then except for one. And even before then, he was getting Norris votes. He was sixth in Norris voting in 96 and 97. The most recent year that Lidstrom didn't win, he was sixth. So he was top six in Norris voting for over a decade. It took Niedermayer 12 seasons before he was a Norris finalist. The year before he won, he was behind Tomas Kaberle and Dan Boyle. In 99, he was 12th in Norris voting. Behind Phil Housley. 98 he was fifth. Lidstrom got a Norris vote in '94, just his third season in the NHL.

Lidstrom is arguably top ten all-time among defensemen right now. Niedermayer could finish in the top 20.

It happened a little bit before he came to Anaheim. Many Devils fans, myself included, view the 2003 playoffs as when Neidermayer finally established himself as a superstar. Before then, he had flashes of brilliance, along with regular mental lapses and general inconsistency. The next season, he won the Norris and the rest is history. But yes, for the previous 10 years in the league, he certainly wasn't the superstar he is now. Pronger has been a star for much longer, for instance.

Neids did always tend to raise his game in the playoffs, though.

 

[norrisnick]

I think Brett Hull is Canadian by birth. Odd to see Lafontaine not on that list but playing his career in the era of the many great centers, the lack of awards/honors is not surprising either.

How many HHOF points does he have pnep?

Hull was also an American by birth (American mother).

 

[pnep]

How many HHOF points does he have pnep?

Player|Seasons|POS|HHOF Monitor
Pat "Lala" Lafontaine |1983-98|C|803,50