overpass
Registered User
- Jun 7, 2007
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Thanks to the great work of the people at the Hockey Summary Project, a lot of information is available about previous years in the NHL that hasn’t been available before. I’ve gone through the data collected there and compiled the scoring stats of all players by game state, broken down into power play scoring, even-strength scoring, and shorthanded scoring. Here I’ll post some of these numbers from the 1960s, where there was previously very little information about scoring by game state.
Why does this matter? Most importantly, I think it’s interesting to know more about the roles players played and how they helped their team win.
In a way, it doesn’t matter if a goal is scored on the power play, shorthanded, or at even-strength. They all count equally at the end of the game. But when it comes to individual players, those who play a lot on the power play have more opportunity to perform well. They should be expected to score more. For these specific years, there is no ice time data or on-ice scoring data for power play time or shorthanded time available for these years. As a result, it’s difficult to evaluate most players based on this data. However, I think we can come to a few conclusions.
A note on data quality: The goals, assists, and points column in the table below are the official NHL numbers, taken from hockey-reference.com. The ES, PP, and SH numbers I compiled do not always add up to the official numbers. That's likely due to a couple of factors - a few goals weren't recorded as EV, PP or SH, there may be entry errors, etc. In most cases the discrepancy is between 0-3 points for this time period. Murray Oliver is an exception: the numbers I compiled show him with 11 fewer points than the official stats. I'm not sure why.
Here are the numbers for the top 25 scorers of this time period, as well as three other forwards of interest who didn’t play the whole time, and also a HHOFer.
Player | GP | G | A |
PTS
| PPG | PPA |
PPP
| ESG | ESA |
ESP
| SHG | SHA | SHP |
ESP/G
|
PPP/G
Stan Mikita | 413 | 188 | 316 | 504 | 57 | 109 | 166 | 127 | 205 | 332 | 3 | 2 | 5 | 0.80 | 0.40
Bobby Hull | 397 | 269 | 212 | 481 | 76 | 64 | 140 | 184 | 143 | 327 | 9 | 5 | 14 | 0.82 | 0.35
Gordie Howe | 418 | 180 | 272 | 452 | 60 | 94 | 154 | 112 | 169 | 281 | 7 | 8 | 15 | 0.67 | 0.37
Norm Ullman | 409 | 172 | 224 | 396 | 29 | 68 | 97 | 138 | 150 | 288 | 5 | 4 | 9 | 0.70 | 0.24
Alex Delvecchio | 418 | 142 | 235 | 377 | 35 | 85 | 120 | 101 | 144 | 245 | 2 | 11 | 13 | 0.59 | 0.29
Andy Bathgate | 396 | 121 | 244 | 365 | 22 | 91 | 113 | 99 | 153 | 252 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0.64 | 0.29
Frank Mahovlich | 397 | 168 | 184 | 352 | 35 | 56 | 91 | 133 | 128 | 261 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0.66 | 0.23
Henri Richard | 367 | 124 | 220 | 344 | 16 | 37 | 53 | 108 | 179 | 287 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 0.78 | 0.14
Jean Beliveau | 358 | 125 | 219 | 344 | 52 | 72 | 124 | 73 | 147 | 220 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0.61 | 0.35
John Bucyk | 388 | 136 | 204 | 340 | 24 | 53 | 77 | 110 | 145 | 255 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 0.66 | 0.20
Dave Keon | 402 | 141 | 192 | 333 | 32 | 52 | 84 | 101 | 134 | 235 | 8 | 5 | 13 | 0.58 | 0.21
Bobby Rousseau | 406 | 126 | 200 | 326 | 24 | 77 | 101 | 97 | 123 | 220 | 5 | 1 | 6 | 0.54 | 0.25
Murray Oliver | 405 | 110 | 204 | 314 | 24 | 42 | 66 | 86 | 150 | 236 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0.58 | 0.16
Kenny Wharram | 394 | 154 | 144 | 298 | 33 | 35 | 68 | 122 | 107 | 229 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0.58 | 0.17
Claude Provost | 409 | 125 | 162 | 287 | 25 | 30 | 55 | 97 | 128 | 225 | 3 | 2 | 5 | 0.55 | 0.13
Bill Hay | 367 | 84 | 188 | 272 | 24 | 51 | 75 | 57 | 131 | 188 | 3 | 6 | 9 | 0.51 | 0.20
Bob Pulford | 412 | 119 | 152 | 271 | 19 | 18 | 37 | 88 | 130 | 218 | 12 | 2 | 14 | 0.53 | 0.09
Red Kelly | 388 | 93 | 177 | 270 | 16 | 45 | 61 | 74 | 130 | 204 | 3 | 0 | 3 | 0.53 | 0.16
Ralph Backstrom | 412 | 119 | 148 | 267 | 11 | 16 | 27 | 106 | 131 | 237 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0.58 | 0.07
Dean Prentice | 374 | 114 | 150 | 264 | 30 | 28 | 58 | 80 | 119 | 199 | 4 | 0 | 4 | 0.53 | 0.16
Phil Goyette | 350 | 71 | 190 | 261 | 17 | 52 | 69 | 54 | 136 | 190 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0.54 | 0.20
George Armstrong | 405 | 100 | 154 | 254 | 20 | 38 | 58 | 75 | 109 | 184 | 5 | 6 | 11 | 0.45 | 0.14
Bob Nevin | 390 | 104 | 138 | 242 | 25 | 35 | 60 | 76 | 100 | 176 | 4 | 3 | 7 | 0.45 | 0.15
Don Marshall | 409 | 112 | 125 | 237 | 19 | 22 | 41 | 85 | 94 | 179 | 8 | 7 | 15 | 0.44 | 0.10
Gilles Tremblay | 349 | 128 | 108 | 236 | 28 | 26 | 54 | 96 | 82 | 178 | 4 | 1 | 5 | 0.51 | 0.15
Camille Henry | 258 | 115 | 82 | 197 | 42 | 24 | 66 | 73 | 59 | 132 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0.51 | 0.26
Dick Duff | 369 | 89 | 104 | 193 | 16 | 26 | 42 | 73 | 75 | 148 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 0.40 | 0.11
Bernie Geoffrion | 226 | 84 | 97 | 181 | 23 | 39 | 62 | 60 | 58 | 118 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0.52 | 0.27
Phil Esposito | 235 | 74 | 100 | 174 | 13 | 15 | 28 | 61 | 80 | 141 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0.60 | 0.12
Here are the numbers for the top scoring defencemen of this time. I've counted Mohns and Fleming as defencemen; I'm not sure when or how much they played each position.
Player | GP | G | A |
PTS
| PPG | PPA |
PPP
| ESG | ESA |
ESP
| SHG | SHA | SHP |
ESP/G
|
PPG/G
Pierre Pilote | 377 | 44 | 224 | 268 | 19 | 77 | 96 | 23 | 141 | 164 | 2 | 7 | 9 | 0.44 | 0.25
Doug Mohns | 387 | 92 | 151 | 243 | 27 | 53 | 80 | 63 | 97 | 160 | 3 | 1 | 4 | 0.41 | 0.21
Harry Howell | 414 | 34 | 143 | 177 | 5 | 45 | 50 | 29 | 90 | 119 | 0 | 3 | 3 | 0.29 | 0.12
Tim Horton | 420 | 51 | 122 | 173 | 12 | 22 | 34 | 37 | 93 | 130 | 2 | 4 | 6 | 0.31 | 0.08
J.C. Tremblay | 396 | 26 | 122 | 148 | 7 | 27 | 34 | 18 | 91 | 109 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 0.28 | 0.09
Reggie Fleming | 392 | 64 | 81 | 145 | 7 | 8 | 15 | 53 | 72 | 125 | 4 | 2 | 6 | 0.32 | 0.04
Jean-Guy Talbot | 400 | 21 | 110 | 131 | 2 | 24 | 26 | 15 | 80 | 95 | 4 | 4 | 8 | 0.24 | 0.07
Allan Stanley | 367 | 26 | 103 | 129 | 6 | 10 | 16 | 19 | 89 | 108 | 1 | 4 | 5 | 0.29 | 0.04
Leo Boivin | 390 | 24 | 93 | 117 | 1 | 7 | 8 | 20 | 88 | 108 | 3 | 1 | 4 | 0.28 | 0.02
Bill Gadsby | 323 | 18 | 94 | 112 | 0 | 17 | 17 | 17 | 76 | 93 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 0.29 | 0.05
Jacques Laperriere | 256 | 13 | 97 | 110 | 2 | 46 | 48 | 9 | 50 | 59 | 2 | 1 | 3 | 0.23 | 0.19
Ted Green | 350 | 27 | 79 | 106 | 11 | 20 | 31 | 17 | 56 | 73 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 0.21 | 0.09
Doug Barkley | 247 | 24 | 80 | 104 | 6 | 16 | 22 | 18 | 59 | 77 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 0.31 | 0.09
Jim Neilson | 326 | 18 | 78 | 96 | 4 | 16 | 20 | 13 | 62 | 75 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0.23 | 0.06
Marcel Pronovost | 386 | 16 | 75 | 91 | 1 | 3 | 4 | 13 | 71 | 84 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 0.22 | 0.01
Carl Brewer | 264 | 11 | 77 | 88 | 0 | 3 | 3 | 10 | 70 | 80 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 0.30 | 0.01
Kent Douglas | 283 | 20 | 65 | 85 | 14 | 30 | 44 | 6 | 32 | 38 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 0.13 | 0.16
Albert Langlois | 320 | 19 | 62 | 81 | 3 | 5 | 8 | 16 | 56 | 72 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0.23 | 0.03
Bob Baun | 333 | 14 | 65 | 79 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 14 | 61 | 75 | 0 | 3 | 3 | 0.23 | 0.01
Pat Stapleton | 215 | 9 | 69 | 78 | 0 | 13 | 13 | 9 | 54 | 63 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0.29 | 0.06
Moose Vasko | 323 | 10 | 66 | 76 | 0 | 4 | 4 | 9 | 57 | 66 | 1 | 3 | 4 | 0.20 | 0.01
Discussion
Chicago appears to have played their stars on the power play a lot, which was probably the right thing to do. Mikita was the best power play producer of this time period, and Pilote was the most productive defenceman on the PP. Bobby Hull was also a big PP producer, of course, and Hay and Wharram each had good PP numbers. Phil Esposito was left out, as he had pretty good numbers at even-strength but didn’t get much of a chance on the power play. Ironically, he would go on to be one of the greatest power play scorers ever.
Gordie Howe was Detroit’s star on the power play – no surprise there. What’s surprising is that Norm Ullman outscored Howe at even-strength over this time period. Why didn’t Ullman produce more on the power play? Lack of opportunity, or was his game better suited to even-strength play?
Punch Imlach appears to have distributed power play time fairly evenly for the Leafs’ forwards. Mahovlich scored less on the PP than one would expect, and a lot of players got PP points. On the blueline, Carl Brewer appears to have rarely played on the power play – surprising, considering his even-strength scoring record and his reputation as an offensively skilled defenceman. Kent Douglas was used almost as a power play specialist for a couple of years. Tim Horton was a consistent presence on the power play, while Allan Stanley scored 11 PP points in 1961-62 and then never more than 2 after that.
Andy Bathgate played the point on the power play for the Rangers, which explains his high assist numbers. Camille Henry was the scorer up front on the PP.
In Boston, John Bucyk and Doug Mohns were both fine PP producers. Bucyk would, of course, excel on the PP later in his career with Orr and Esposito. Did Mohns play the point?
I think the Montreal numbers are the most interesting of all.
Several defencemen put up fair to good scoring numbers at even-strength while rarely playing on the power play during this time. Carl Brewer is the best example of this category. Leo Boivin, Bill Gadsby, Marcel Pronovost also fit here, and Albert Langlois, Bob Baun, and Moose Vasko all rarely played on the PP.
Why does this matter? Most importantly, I think it’s interesting to know more about the roles players played and how they helped their team win.
In a way, it doesn’t matter if a goal is scored on the power play, shorthanded, or at even-strength. They all count equally at the end of the game. But when it comes to individual players, those who play a lot on the power play have more opportunity to perform well. They should be expected to score more. For these specific years, there is no ice time data or on-ice scoring data for power play time or shorthanded time available for these years. As a result, it’s difficult to evaluate most players based on this data. However, I think we can come to a few conclusions.
A note on data quality: The goals, assists, and points column in the table below are the official NHL numbers, taken from hockey-reference.com. The ES, PP, and SH numbers I compiled do not always add up to the official numbers. That's likely due to a couple of factors - a few goals weren't recorded as EV, PP or SH, there may be entry errors, etc. In most cases the discrepancy is between 0-3 points for this time period. Murray Oliver is an exception: the numbers I compiled show him with 11 fewer points than the official stats. I'm not sure why.
Here are the numbers for the top 25 scorers of this time period, as well as three other forwards of interest who didn’t play the whole time, and also a HHOFer.
Stan Mikita | 413 | 188 | 316 | 504 | 57 | 109 | 166 | 127 | 205 | 332 | 3 | 2 | 5 | 0.80 | 0.40
Bobby Hull | 397 | 269 | 212 | 481 | 76 | 64 | 140 | 184 | 143 | 327 | 9 | 5 | 14 | 0.82 | 0.35
Gordie Howe | 418 | 180 | 272 | 452 | 60 | 94 | 154 | 112 | 169 | 281 | 7 | 8 | 15 | 0.67 | 0.37
Norm Ullman | 409 | 172 | 224 | 396 | 29 | 68 | 97 | 138 | 150 | 288 | 5 | 4 | 9 | 0.70 | 0.24
Alex Delvecchio | 418 | 142 | 235 | 377 | 35 | 85 | 120 | 101 | 144 | 245 | 2 | 11 | 13 | 0.59 | 0.29
Andy Bathgate | 396 | 121 | 244 | 365 | 22 | 91 | 113 | 99 | 153 | 252 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0.64 | 0.29
Frank Mahovlich | 397 | 168 | 184 | 352 | 35 | 56 | 91 | 133 | 128 | 261 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0.66 | 0.23
Henri Richard | 367 | 124 | 220 | 344 | 16 | 37 | 53 | 108 | 179 | 287 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 0.78 | 0.14
Jean Beliveau | 358 | 125 | 219 | 344 | 52 | 72 | 124 | 73 | 147 | 220 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0.61 | 0.35
John Bucyk | 388 | 136 | 204 | 340 | 24 | 53 | 77 | 110 | 145 | 255 | 2 | 0 | 2 | 0.66 | 0.20
Dave Keon | 402 | 141 | 192 | 333 | 32 | 52 | 84 | 101 | 134 | 235 | 8 | 5 | 13 | 0.58 | 0.21
Bobby Rousseau | 406 | 126 | 200 | 326 | 24 | 77 | 101 | 97 | 123 | 220 | 5 | 1 | 6 | 0.54 | 0.25
Murray Oliver | 405 | 110 | 204 | 314 | 24 | 42 | 66 | 86 | 150 | 236 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0.58 | 0.16
Kenny Wharram | 394 | 154 | 144 | 298 | 33 | 35 | 68 | 122 | 107 | 229 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0.58 | 0.17
Claude Provost | 409 | 125 | 162 | 287 | 25 | 30 | 55 | 97 | 128 | 225 | 3 | 2 | 5 | 0.55 | 0.13
Bill Hay | 367 | 84 | 188 | 272 | 24 | 51 | 75 | 57 | 131 | 188 | 3 | 6 | 9 | 0.51 | 0.20
Bob Pulford | 412 | 119 | 152 | 271 | 19 | 18 | 37 | 88 | 130 | 218 | 12 | 2 | 14 | 0.53 | 0.09
Red Kelly | 388 | 93 | 177 | 270 | 16 | 45 | 61 | 74 | 130 | 204 | 3 | 0 | 3 | 0.53 | 0.16
Ralph Backstrom | 412 | 119 | 148 | 267 | 11 | 16 | 27 | 106 | 131 | 237 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0.58 | 0.07
Dean Prentice | 374 | 114 | 150 | 264 | 30 | 28 | 58 | 80 | 119 | 199 | 4 | 0 | 4 | 0.53 | 0.16
Phil Goyette | 350 | 71 | 190 | 261 | 17 | 52 | 69 | 54 | 136 | 190 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0.54 | 0.20
George Armstrong | 405 | 100 | 154 | 254 | 20 | 38 | 58 | 75 | 109 | 184 | 5 | 6 | 11 | 0.45 | 0.14
Bob Nevin | 390 | 104 | 138 | 242 | 25 | 35 | 60 | 76 | 100 | 176 | 4 | 3 | 7 | 0.45 | 0.15
Don Marshall | 409 | 112 | 125 | 237 | 19 | 22 | 41 | 85 | 94 | 179 | 8 | 7 | 15 | 0.44 | 0.10
Gilles Tremblay | 349 | 128 | 108 | 236 | 28 | 26 | 54 | 96 | 82 | 178 | 4 | 1 | 5 | 0.51 | 0.15
Camille Henry | 258 | 115 | 82 | 197 | 42 | 24 | 66 | 73 | 59 | 132 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0.51 | 0.26
Dick Duff | 369 | 89 | 104 | 193 | 16 | 26 | 42 | 73 | 75 | 148 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 0.40 | 0.11
Bernie Geoffrion | 226 | 84 | 97 | 181 | 23 | 39 | 62 | 60 | 58 | 118 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0.52 | 0.27
Phil Esposito | 235 | 74 | 100 | 174 | 13 | 15 | 28 | 61 | 80 | 141 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0.60 | 0.12
Here are the numbers for the top scoring defencemen of this time. I've counted Mohns and Fleming as defencemen; I'm not sure when or how much they played each position.
Pierre Pilote | 377 | 44 | 224 | 268 | 19 | 77 | 96 | 23 | 141 | 164 | 2 | 7 | 9 | 0.44 | 0.25
Doug Mohns | 387 | 92 | 151 | 243 | 27 | 53 | 80 | 63 | 97 | 160 | 3 | 1 | 4 | 0.41 | 0.21
Harry Howell | 414 | 34 | 143 | 177 | 5 | 45 | 50 | 29 | 90 | 119 | 0 | 3 | 3 | 0.29 | 0.12
Tim Horton | 420 | 51 | 122 | 173 | 12 | 22 | 34 | 37 | 93 | 130 | 2 | 4 | 6 | 0.31 | 0.08
J.C. Tremblay | 396 | 26 | 122 | 148 | 7 | 27 | 34 | 18 | 91 | 109 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 0.28 | 0.09
Reggie Fleming | 392 | 64 | 81 | 145 | 7 | 8 | 15 | 53 | 72 | 125 | 4 | 2 | 6 | 0.32 | 0.04
Jean-Guy Talbot | 400 | 21 | 110 | 131 | 2 | 24 | 26 | 15 | 80 | 95 | 4 | 4 | 8 | 0.24 | 0.07
Allan Stanley | 367 | 26 | 103 | 129 | 6 | 10 | 16 | 19 | 89 | 108 | 1 | 4 | 5 | 0.29 | 0.04
Leo Boivin | 390 | 24 | 93 | 117 | 1 | 7 | 8 | 20 | 88 | 108 | 3 | 1 | 4 | 0.28 | 0.02
Bill Gadsby | 323 | 18 | 94 | 112 | 0 | 17 | 17 | 17 | 76 | 93 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 0.29 | 0.05
Jacques Laperriere | 256 | 13 | 97 | 110 | 2 | 46 | 48 | 9 | 50 | 59 | 2 | 1 | 3 | 0.23 | 0.19
Ted Green | 350 | 27 | 79 | 106 | 11 | 20 | 31 | 17 | 56 | 73 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 0.21 | 0.09
Doug Barkley | 247 | 24 | 80 | 104 | 6 | 16 | 22 | 18 | 59 | 77 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 0.31 | 0.09
Jim Neilson | 326 | 18 | 78 | 96 | 4 | 16 | 20 | 13 | 62 | 75 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0.23 | 0.06
Marcel Pronovost | 386 | 16 | 75 | 91 | 1 | 3 | 4 | 13 | 71 | 84 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 0.22 | 0.01
Carl Brewer | 264 | 11 | 77 | 88 | 0 | 3 | 3 | 10 | 70 | 80 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 0.30 | 0.01
Kent Douglas | 283 | 20 | 65 | 85 | 14 | 30 | 44 | 6 | 32 | 38 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 0.13 | 0.16
Albert Langlois | 320 | 19 | 62 | 81 | 3 | 5 | 8 | 16 | 56 | 72 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0.23 | 0.03
Bob Baun | 333 | 14 | 65 | 79 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 14 | 61 | 75 | 0 | 3 | 3 | 0.23 | 0.01
Pat Stapleton | 215 | 9 | 69 | 78 | 0 | 13 | 13 | 9 | 54 | 63 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0.29 | 0.06
Moose Vasko | 323 | 10 | 66 | 76 | 0 | 4 | 4 | 9 | 57 | 66 | 1 | 3 | 4 | 0.20 | 0.01
Discussion
Chicago appears to have played their stars on the power play a lot, which was probably the right thing to do. Mikita was the best power play producer of this time period, and Pilote was the most productive defenceman on the PP. Bobby Hull was also a big PP producer, of course, and Hay and Wharram each had good PP numbers. Phil Esposito was left out, as he had pretty good numbers at even-strength but didn’t get much of a chance on the power play. Ironically, he would go on to be one of the greatest power play scorers ever.
Gordie Howe was Detroit’s star on the power play – no surprise there. What’s surprising is that Norm Ullman outscored Howe at even-strength over this time period. Why didn’t Ullman produce more on the power play? Lack of opportunity, or was his game better suited to even-strength play?
Punch Imlach appears to have distributed power play time fairly evenly for the Leafs’ forwards. Mahovlich scored less on the PP than one would expect, and a lot of players got PP points. On the blueline, Carl Brewer appears to have rarely played on the power play – surprising, considering his even-strength scoring record and his reputation as an offensively skilled defenceman. Kent Douglas was used almost as a power play specialist for a couple of years. Tim Horton was a consistent presence on the power play, while Allan Stanley scored 11 PP points in 1961-62 and then never more than 2 after that.
Andy Bathgate played the point on the power play for the Rangers, which explains his high assist numbers. Camille Henry was the scorer up front on the PP.
In Boston, John Bucyk and Doug Mohns were both fine PP producers. Bucyk would, of course, excel on the PP later in his career with Orr and Esposito. Did Mohns play the point?
I think the Montreal numbers are the most interesting of all.
- Henri Richard had the 4th most even-strength points over this time period, ahead of Gordie Howe and well ahead of his teammates. However, he didn’t score a lot on the power play, as Jean Beliveau was the first-unit centre.
- Beliveau had the 4th most power play points in this time period, but was only 15th in even-strength points.
- Ralph Backstrom also outscored Beliveau at even-strength, and scored at a similar rate to Delvecchio and Keon. What kind of numbers would he have had with some power play time?
- Bobby Rousseau was an excellent power play producer, leading the league with 37 power play points in 1966 – the highest single-season mark of this time period.
- Yvan Cournoyer was used as a power play specialist in his first two years, scoring 52 of 69 points on the PP in 1966 and 1967.
- On the blueline, Jacques Laperriere was a big point producer on the PP in his younger years, Jean-Guy Talbot had a big year on the PP in 1962, and J.C. Tremblay was a consistent power play producer.
Several defencemen put up fair to good scoring numbers at even-strength while rarely playing on the power play during this time. Carl Brewer is the best example of this category. Leo Boivin, Bill Gadsby, Marcel Pronovost also fit here, and Albert Langlois, Bob Baun, and Moose Vasko all rarely played on the PP.