Scheifele draft pick

[wpgsilver]

Poor skating mechanics are nearly impossible to fix after 12 years of age. That is a well known concept in the coaching fraternity.

He has never had poor skating mechanics since people have been paying attention to him. It has always been the need to gain strength on his larger than average frame. Those that say he was a poor skater have probably never really studied skating and skating mechanics to really know what was going on.

Another Scouting report:

Strengths: Big frame with plenty of room to grow/add mass. Good skater; a long-strider with impressive power and fluid stride.

The bolded is flat out wrong. Period.
Improving your skating is difficult, but certainly doable.
There are characteristics that can't be improved, such as hand-eye coordination which tops out at different places for differently people.

Mechanics can be improved with work. Speed is predetermined to some extent by a players body and genetics, but player can through hard work learn how to be better skaters.

It's not impossible to improve. But it is impossible to go from bad to great like some people on here are suggesting. That is a total lack of knowledge of how players are developed or can be developed particlarly when it comes to skating.

You need to catch them early for that reason alone. Mark has had great mechanics.

HIs challenge, which will be the case until his mid-twenties will be strength which normally has to wait until the off-season to improve.

You keep saying he had great mechanics, people keep point out areas where they were flawed. Care to address them?
Not being compact while you skate is a mechanical issue.
Taking too many short strides is a mechanical issue.
Having no power in your long strides are mechanical issues.

Are you disputing these things occured?


Also you keep throwing out scouting reports without citing them. They could be real, or BS you're not linking to them. Just saying scouting report xxxx agrees with me!

 

[Sweech]

Are you denying that the majority of fans weren't question his ability in the NHL? Thats the point

Majority? No. There was a minority who for some reason expected him in the NHL year one which were very poor expectations to begin with.

When getting drafted he was already seen as a developmental guy and it was only through him blowing away the pre-season that people thought maybe he could play NHL earlier than expected.

Through watching a lot of the OHL I had faith he was going to be a player. He had a lot of the required skills to succeed and we're seeing it now.

I think some fans just weren't aware that most prospects need development or something. As you can see now no one is saying Josh Morrissey is a bust because he's not playing NHL right now. There were a few who need to get their expectations in check and it appears they have.

My point is it was nothing Scheifele did or didn't do. It was purely a falsely generated expectation by the fans. Scheifele was nothing but superb playing in juniors which were the right expectations to have for him. I never found anything about him to be disappointing.

 

[nags]

The bolded is flat out wrong. Period.
Improving your skating is difficult, but certainly doable.
There are characteristics that can't be improved, such as hand-eye coordination which tops out at different places for differently people.

Mechanics can be improved with work. Speed is predetermined to some extent by a players body and genetics, but player can through hard work learn how to be better skaters.



You keep saying he had great mechanics, people keep point out areas where they were flawed. Care to address them?
Not being compact while you skate is a mechanical issue.
Taking too many short strides is a mechanical issue.
Having no power in your long strides are mechanical issues.

Are you disputing these things occured?


Also you keep throwing out scouting reports without citing them. They could be real, or BS you're not linking to them. Just saying scouting report xxxx agrees with me!

What do you mean by compact? I have never heard anyone who coaches skating suggest being compact is good.

Being compact in terms of not putting a wing out when your trying to hit someone or about to get hit is good. Being compact when trying to skate with speed makes no sense.

Taking too many short strides? When? That is what you have to do when going from a full stop to full speed. Look at Frolik during a face off or when he is trying to beat his D-man out of hte zone. That is exactly what you have to do to get the jump on somone.

Having no power in long strides.... mechanical?
Power = force x speed ..... Force in hockey is usually associated with strength. Having a long stride is associated with having good mechanics. You have effectively contradicted the point you were trying to make with your example.

scouting reports - google it.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

Probably want to thank Marcel Comeau, I heard he was a big proponent of Scheifele. In the end I guess Chevy went with his guys choice and it seems to be working out so far with our 1st rounders

 

[wpgsilver]

What do you mean by compact? I have never heard anyone who coaches skating suggest being compact is good.

Being compact in terms of not putting a wing out when your trying to hit someone or about to get hit is good. Being compact when trying to skate with speed makes no sense.

Taking too many short strides? When? That is what you have to do when going from a full stop to full speed. Look at Frolik during a face off or when he is trying to beat his D-man out of hte zone. That is exactly what you have to do to get the jump on somone.

Having no power in long strides.... mechanical?
Power = force x speed ..... Force in hockey is usually associated with strength. Having a long stride is associated with having good mechanics. You have effectively contradicted the point you were trying to make with your example.

scouting reports - google it.

I can't tell if you're even being serious anymore.

What do you mean by compact? I have never heard anyone who coaches skating suggest being compact is good.

Being compact in terms of not putting a wing out when your trying to hit someone or about to get hit is good. Being compact when trying to skate with speed makes no sense.

Being compact is taught from day one.
Scheifele in junior would have his limps flailing when he skated. You want your movements to be with purpose. If your legs and arms are far outside your body you aren't maximizing your movement. Compact also refers to your level when you skate. Look at enstrom skate. I think he is one of the best technical skaters in the league.

Taking too many short strides? When? That is what you have to do when going from a full stop to full speed.

Short stride are OBVIOUSLY not the most efficient way to skate. Yes they are vital to generate power, but at a point you need to length your stride.

Having no power in long strides.... mechanical?
Power = force x speed ..... Force in hockey is usually associated with strength. Having a long stride is associated with having good mechanics. You have effectively contradicted the point you were trying to make with your example.

Having a long stride alone indicates nothing.
Having power in your long strides indicates strength AND fundamentals.

As for the scouting reports you allude to. I'm not going to google to see where YOU get your information from. The onus is on you to back up your claims not me to fact check you. I provided you with the TSN scouting report which contradicted some of your initial statements.
After people called you out on not providing sources you continued to do it.
As far as I'm concerned theres not further point discussing it.

 

[YWGinYYZ]

I provided you with the TSN scouting report which contradicted some of your initial statements.

For me: I found 4 reports, including one from Pronman, that discuss his skating as an area that needs improvement. I'm not about to link them here - I don't feel like tearing down a prospect for no good reason, and whose transition from OHL to NHL I enjoyed watching. I would rather focus on the positives: his skating is now very good, and he's gaining strength on his skates as well, which is probably the last of the areas he still needs to improve on.

History for me is history. I'm loving what he's doing on the ice, right now.

 

[wpgsilver]

I'm with you YWG, like I stated initially I've always been a big believer in Mark Scheifele. I don't want it to come off as anything else.

I think the growth Mark has shown in EVERY aspect of his game is extremely encouraging. I think his ceiling is VERY high because of his hockey IQ and work ethic.

I was very wrong about 3 weeks ago when I said he had almost no shot at the Calder.
I didn't doubt him as a player I just didn't think he could make up the ground to take the lead in points and become a truly impactful player.
Seeing him and Jacob grow as players will make every Jets game a must watch for me regardless of the standings.

 

[puck stoppa]

Love to see his success, Trouba and him would both be fighting for Calder if not for Trouba's injury. We'll see how he finishes off the year but future is bright!

 

[Sweech]

scouting reports - google it.

You're the one not providing the reports. They have.

This also has to be one of the dumbest things to argue about.

 

[Aela*]

Really? For all 11 NHL games where he was put in a defensive roll? Or are you referring to the pre season where he led the league in scoring?

NEVER under achieved.

For the first while of the season, he had no points and was not really doing much defensively either from what I saw.

I'm more speaking about previous seasons, where he couldn't stick in the NHL though. Most other players from his draft class (at similar draft position) all stuck in the NHL earlier, and on, imo, tougher teams to break than WPG. However that's my opinion, and he's certainly changed it a lot over this season.

 

[pucka lucka]

Honest question: How can one be actually "angry" with those picks? Do you really consider your hockey or prospect knowledge better than the knowledge of people that work on a professional daily basis for a living to do this?


I mean, I can see why you can be actually "angry" with an UFA signing or a trade but a draft choice??

Sergei Bautin?

 

[GJF]

Sergei Bautin?

What's with him?

He was a 17th overall pick. It's not like 17th overall is a sure thing to make the NHL.

Since when is drafting a sure thing and you just follow Plan X so nothing can go wrong? After the first at best 3 picks, you just can't legitimately say "this is a bad choice". You can, 3-5 years later, but we're all smarter after something than we've been beforehand.

If you want an example, go with Patrik Stefan for the Thrashers. At least he was a first overall choice and busted completely when even back then most people didn't thought he'd be the best choice overall. In that case, I can see why you actually can be mad. The first overall choice should never be a gamble. But with picks from 5 to lower, there is no easy right or wrong.

 

[King Woodballs]

What's with him?

He was a 17th overall pick. It's not like 17th overall is a sure thing to make the NHL.

Since when is drafting a sure thing and you just follow Plan X so nothing can go wrong? After the first at best 3 picks, you just can't legitimately say "this is a bad choice". You can, 3-5 years later, but we're all smarter after something than we've been beforehand.

If you want an example, go with Patrik Stefan for the Thrashers. At least he was a first overall choice and busted completely when even back then most people didn't thought he'd be the best choice overall. In that case, I can see why you actually can be mad. The first overall choice should never be a gamble. But with picks from 5 to lower, there is no easy right or wrong.

Bautin never should have had a job in the NHL
Let alone a first round pick

 

[YWGinYYZ]

GJF: Bautin was not even ranked by central scouting, and it was doubtful he was even going to be picked until sometime in the later rounds, if that. It was considered a poor choice even at the time for a 17th overall pick.

 

[GJF]

... okay didn't knew the story THAT well, TBH

There are exceptions when you can be angry for a draft pick, I guess. But the Scheifele, Trouba and Morrissey choices definitely aren't.

 

[YWGinYYZ]

... okay didn't knew the story THAT well, TBH

There are exceptions when you can be angry for a draft pick, I guess. But the Scheifele, Trouba and Morrissey choices definitely aren't.

Mike Smith was not .... the best GM. Let's just leave it at that - if I say any more, I could get in trouble.

 

[King Woodballs]

Mike Smith was not .... the best GM. Let's just leave it at that - if I say any more, I could get in trouble.

It's spelt Mikhaíl Smithkov

 

[GoJetsGo55]

Its only cliche that people now say its Atlanta did the scouting and Cheveldayoff selected him.

I remember people throwing him under the bus. They made comments including this:

sipowicz "The Original": Schief needs to find his scoring touch in the AHL, sadly I don't think it will come easy for him even there.

Gotaf7: "I would not be suprised if he went to the Rock and did nothing for the Caps, I don't see the hype around this guy."

and this beauty:
Gotaf7: "At this point I would say Cormier would bring more to the table than Scheif does."

and another returnee:
sipowicz: "Bang on, when Schief was centering the 2nd line and getting 20 minutes he produced squat, fail to see how that's on coaching. He is not ready for the NHL, can't produce in the NHL, isn't physically strong enough for the NHL nor can he skate at the NHL level."

There's a whole lotta crow to go around between those two lol.

 

[Huffer]

There's a whole lotta crow to go around between those two lol.

Some people's entire routine here is just to whine and complain.

 

[Joe Hallenback]

There's a whole lotta crow to go around between those two lol.

Go look through the original draft thread

Looks of Hilarity in there

 

[surixon]

For the first while of the season, he had no points and was not really doing much defensively either from what I saw.

I'm more speaking about previous seasons, where he couldn't stick in the NHL though. Most other players from his draft class (at similar draft position) all stuck in the NHL earlier, and on, imo, tougher teams to break than WPG. However that's my opinion, and he's certainly changed it a lot over this season.

I really could care less who made it to the show first especially when we are looking at one to half a year here. Also not all of the players that you have mentioned have been better off for it.


Larsen despite being a can't miss d prospect has absolutely stagnated as a bottom pairing defenseman in Jersey and has been recently demoted to the AHL.

Strome just got called up a month ago and is going through a similar adjustment period as Mark.

RNH was rushed and has been injured a lot in his early career. I don't think he's developed as expected because of it.

I will take an organization that knows what its doing with regards to development over orgs that feel the need to rush players and see them stagnate.

 

[cheswick]

What's with him?

He was a 17th overall pick. It's not like 17th overall is a sure thing to make the NHL.

Since when is drafting a sure thing and you just follow Plan X so nothing can go wrong? After the first at best 3 picks, you just can't legitimately say "this is a bad choice". You can, 3-5 years later, but we're all smarter after something than we've been beforehand.

If you want an example, go with Patrik Stefan for the Thrashers. At least he was a first overall choice and busted completely when even back then most people didn't thought he'd be the best choice overall. In that case, I can see why you actually can be mad. The first overall choice should never be a gamble. But with picks from 5 to lower, there is no easy right or wrong.

You're missing the point as to why he was such a poor choice. Its not that he was a poor NHLer for the position he was drafted, its because the Jets could have drafted him in the 7th round cause no one would have taken him before them. The crew at TSN were completely clueless as to who the Jets had actually drafted. They thought it was Sergei Brylin who wasn't projected to go til the 2nd round.


Patrick Stefan would not have been available to be drafted in any subsequent rounds. So Stefan is not as poor a pick. Picks don't pan out. That happens and that's not necessarily poor drafting.

 

[Mungman]

What's with him?

He was a 17th overall pick. It's not like 17th overall is a sure thing to make the NHL.

Since when is drafting a sure thing and you just follow Plan X so nothing can go wrong? After the first at best 3 picks, you just can't legitimately say "this is a bad choice". You can, 3-5 years later, but we're all smarter after something than we've been beforehand.

If you want an example, go with Patrik Stefan for the Thrashers. At least he was a first overall choice and busted completely when even back then most people didn't thought he'd be the best choice overall. In that case, I can see why you actually can be mad. The first overall choice should never be a gamble. But with picks from 5 to lower, there is no easy right or wrong.

GJF: Bautin was not even ranked by central scouting, and it was doubtful he was even going to be picked until sometime in the later rounds, if that. It was considered a poor choice even at the time for a 17th overall pick.

Mike Smith was not .... the best GM. Let's just leave it at that - if I say any more, I could get in trouble.

The mention of that name causes me convulsions (ok, both the player and GM do that, the combination of both in one thread causes near hospitalization). According to lore as I recall it Bob McKenzie after the pick said he was the prototypical Russian forward (he was actually a chain-smoking (in the tunnel between shifts) terrible terrible Dman).

ICK, that era of Jets management was terrible (maybe that's why I despise the 90's era jerseys so much).

 

[castle]

Go look through the original draft thread

Looks of Hilarity in there

Wow. There was serious hate for Chevy there. And an all around press ion that the jets had totally **** that one up.

 

[Aavco Cup]

I think the one thing that we can all learn about the Scheifele pick is that fans need to learn to have some patience. It's too easy to jump to conclusions over a very small amount of games. Same goes for Trouba. Both these guys are looking great now but who knows whether they will keep it up, regress, plateau. We can also go the other way and get too enthusiastic about new players. Patience is not an easy thing for fans though