Satellite (and cable) death spiral

Pilky01

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Jan 30, 2012
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That's a very static view of things, no? Hypothetical you today is just on YouTube, watching endless highlights of wicked plays and condensed games. I think sports fandom usually goes a little deeper than catching some games on cable. And maybe it's a little different in Canada with TSN/Sportsnet, but ESPN has probably hampered the growth of soccer in the US as much as helped it.

SNET and TSN have been very different from ESPN for a long time now, at least the last 20 years. They buried and ignored everything that wasn’t NFL and LeBron.

SNET and TSN went in big on soccer. The first game I really remember watching and telling myself “I need to start following this” was coming home from class and watching the Milan-Liverpool 3-0 comeback game.

Sure I concede it is a static view, but I’m just trying to use it as one example. And I think it’s a “static view” as well to simply say “this is good and I’m happy it is going this way”.
 

LeHab

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Aug 31, 2005
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What I worry about is how are the next generation going to find the content and fall in love with it like we did as kids?

I was fortunate to grow up with cable as a sports fan which essentially gave me my pick of what sports to watch and learn to love. But the 8yr old who has NetFlix and no TV beyond OTA is going to have pretty low percentages to grow up as a sports fan unless he/she is really thrown into it by their parents.

I have cable mainly so the wife can watch what she wants without hassle. I have more then enough knowledge and expertise in the IT world to find whatever I want to see. But there's still huge value in a cable package for many families who don't share common interests.

Online, content finds you. Think FB, Google and others who are collecting as much user information as possible to target with more personalized content based on your specific profile (interests, demographic...).

If one of those big boys are also content providers then they can further observe and assess how you consume that content which will further gage your level of interest and engagement.
 

Masked

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So for my experience, in Canada with Bell fibre op. I got sold a package with home phone and cable and internet for 130 a month (300mbps down/up). I got upset one day at a blackout and called to cancel. For cancelling both phone and cable, I would only save 12 dollars due to how they roll it all in together.

I said I want to watch all of the NHL games. Half the Leafs games are blacked out, and Canes games usually aren't but it's rare they are televised. They said I have to pay another 250 / month for some other package on top of this one to get all the games?

Are the NHL exec's dump or just out of touch? How do you think I watch the Canes and most Leaf games? Yup, on my tv being illegally streamed through HD quality. Only bad part is there is a slight delay when following GDT's.

I'd be willing to be 200/300 for all games no blackouts a season, but I am not pumping out 500 for 3 different services to see all the games I want to watch.


NHL executives are out of touch because you don't understand how blackouts work and would rather steal than pay the approximately $200 for one single service - Rogers NHL Live - for all the Leaf and Cane games that don't involve your in-market team?
 

Kamiccolo

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NHL executives are out of touch because you don't understand how blackouts work and would rather steal than pay the approximately $200 for one single service - Rogers NHL Live - for all the Leaf and Cane games that don't involve your in-market team?

On top of the sports package I already pay for? Hell no. I don't pay for it twice.
 
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kgboomer

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NHL executives are out of touch because you don't understand how blackouts work and would rather steal than pay the approximately $200 for one single service - Rogers NHL Live - for all the Leaf and Cane games that don't involve your in-market team?
I'm pretty sure they do... and the NHLPA too. They're getting top $$$ for national TV revenue, and the teams are getting their top $$$ for local deals. Blackouts is a way for both to of those to get their top $$$ from advertising, and for some cable/satellite to pay top $$$ for Center Ice or whatever it's called for streaming. It's not about the fans here, it's all about revenue. And when they can't get the revenues from those TV deals anymore, watch out with the salary cap and the players salaries will go down with it too.
 
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unknownbrother

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Apr 1, 2015
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You are stealing. Shame on you
The people you are hurting are the writers, production crews, actors, etc on the shows you steal.

How would you feel if I siphoned off 25% of your paycheck while you do the same amount of work.

There are legal and ethical ways to get the shows and movies you want to see, while saving money. PSVue, Sling, Hulu , etc

I know this is going back a few pages but thought I'd just drop this in in regards to circumventing the traditional legal services.

Pub landlady wins TV court case

A woman used a Greek TV encoder to show live Premier League games at her pub because of the cost of Sky Sports was/is so high. It was actually the Premier League that took her to court but she won.

Fast forward to 2019 and I feel any league wanting to go after people for using "alternative" streaming services might not get the outcome they want.

I use a site that shows NHL, NFL, MLB, NBA plus Premier League and Champions League for $20 a month.

No legal streaming service exists for the Premier League and Champions League in the UK without having cable or satellite. NFL Gamepass and NHLtv together costs around £260 a year. Then add on around £150 a month for a Sky or Virgin to watch Premier League and Champions League games on Sky and BT channels. It's insane how expensive sports viewing has become.

Some people already mentioned the music industry. This kind of thing is how services like Spotify and Apple Music became the norm for younger people.
 
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tarheelhockey

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NHL executives are out of touch because you don't understand how blackouts work and would rather steal than pay the approximately $200 for one single service - Rogers NHL Live - for all the Leaf and Cane games that don't involve your in-market team?

I don’t think you really got his point.

He said he IS willing to pay $200-$300 for a single service, because he understands that is the market value of what he’s asking for.

He is NOT willing to buy multiple other, unwanted services. That is a completely reasonable stance as a customer.

You don’t go to a restaurant and order the steak, and then agree to also buy a hamburger because the restaurant spent too much money on burgers to let them go bad. You don’t go to a car lot and pick the car you want, then sign a contract on a second car if you want to be allowed to buy the first one.

The model of forcing people to bundle products even if they don’t want them is completely insane. It’s one of the least customer friendly business models in ANY industry and it’s a major reason that the industry is in a “death spiral”.
 

Masked

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I don’t think you really got his point.

He said he IS willing to pay $200-$300 for a single service, because he understands that is the market value of what he’s asking for.

He is NOT willing to buy multiple other, unwanted services. That is a completely reasonable stance as a customer.

You don’t go to a restaurant and order the steak, and then agree to also buy a hamburger because the restaurant spent too much money on burgers to let them go bad. You don’t go to a car lot and pick the car you want, then sign a contract on a second car if you want to be allowed to buy the first one.

The model of forcing people to bundle products even if they don’t want them is completely insane. It’s one of the least customer friendly business models in ANY industry and it’s a major reason that the industry is in a “death spiral”.

I understand the point completely but it appears neither you or he does. To continue your restaurant analogy, he's ordering drinks (i.e. sports stations like TSN and Sportsnet) and he expects a steak (i.e. out of market regional games) to come along with them. You can just get the steak, you don't need the drinks with it.

You don't need to bundle the Rogers NHL Live package with anything.
 

tarheelhockey

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I understand the point completely but it appears neither you or he does. To continue your restaurant analogy, he's ordering drinks (i.e. sports stations like TSN and Sportsnet) and he expects a steak (i.e. out of market regional games) to come along with them. You can just get the steak, you don't need the drinks with it.

You don't need to bundle the Rogers NHL Live package with anything.

One of you is wrong. He clearly said he needed to buy both packages to get the product he wants.
 

LadyStanley

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Sep 22, 2004
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I'm pretty sure they do... and the NHLPA too. They're getting top $$$ for national TV revenue, and the teams are getting their top $$$ for local deals. Blackouts is a way for both to of those to get their top $$$ from advertising, and for some cable/satellite to pay top $$$ for Center Ice or whatever it's called for streaming. It's not about the fans here, it's all about revenue. And when they can't get the revenues from those TV deals anymore, watch out with the salary cap and the players salaries will go down with it too.

NHL.tv

Definitely hope whatever new TV deal is done in a timely fashion so I can make decisions on where/how to watch thereafter.
 

SwaggySpungo

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Oct 18, 2018
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It says “livestream out-of-market games”. If I live in Toronto, it looks like I won’t get Leaf games (I assume those are “in-market”)?

Based on what I’m reading, I’d need to buy Rogers NHL live + TSN + Sportsnet to see every Leafs game.

Screw that. Much better to get Centre Ice (if that still exists) and use a VPN. Or straight up pirate everything.
 

Grudy0

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Mar 16, 2011
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It's not the "blackouts".

You are already forced to purchase an out-of-market package if you want to see the most hockey. You are already forced to purchase some version of a cable package to see your home team.

The record industry went to crap once the piracy started. I can't wait to see what happens to sports leagues when revenues fall due to piracy. People think the current CBA is barely tenable between the two sides as it is. Wait for the cap to fall.
 

Chileiceman

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Dec 14, 2004
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It says “livestream out-of-market games”. If I live in Toronto, it looks like I won’t get Leaf games (I assume those are “in-market”)?

Based on what I’m reading, I’d need to buy Rogers NHL live + TSN + Sportsnet to see every Leafs game.

Screw that. Much better to get Centre Ice (if that still exists) and use a VPN. Or straight up pirate everything.

There seems to be confusion in this thread about Rogers Gamcentre Live. Unlike NHL.tv in the US, nationally broadcasted games are NOT blacked out on Gamecentre. About half of Leafs games are nationally broadcast, so if you live in the Lefs TV market you can still get quite a few of them.

If @Kamiccolo is not getting every Leaf game on his $200 TV package, then it means he does not live in Leafs region. If he subscribed to Gamecentre live he would get every single Leaf and Cane game. I've never heard of anyone who expects to get every out of market game without having to pay for an additional service.
 

tarheelhockey

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It's not the "blackouts".

You are already forced to purchase an out-of-market package if you want to see the most hockey. You are already forced to purchase some version of a cable package to see your home team.

It absolutely is the blackouts. The blackouts ARE what forces me to buy a cable package. Otherwise I could just pick up a subscription for Hulu or similar service and be good to go. $15 a month for streaming TV plus games I actually want to watch is not “some version of a cable package”.

The record industry went to crap once the piracy started. I can't wait to see what happens to sports leagues when revenues fall due to piracy. People think the current CBA is barely tenable between the two sides as it is. Wait for the cap to fall.

Funny, I didn’t notice the industry going to crap. If anything we entered a phase where artists could actually get noticed outside of signing over their life to a major label.
 

Lions67

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Im here whenever you guys need me.
Until then, continue to bend over and let the big boys have their way.

This thread is funny.
 

Grudy0

Registered User
Mar 16, 2011
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I know this is going back a few pages but thought I'd just drop this in in regards to circumventing the traditional legal services.

Pub landlady wins TV court case

A woman used a Greek TV encoder to show live Premier League games at her pub because of the cost of Sky Sports was/is so high. It was actually the Premier League that took her to court but she won.

Fast forward to 2019 and I feel any league wanting to go after people for using "alternative" streaming services might not get the outcome they want.

I use a site that shows NHL, NFL, MLB, NBA plus Premier League and Champions League for $20 a month.

No legal streaming service exists for the Premier League and Champions League in the UK without having cable or satellite. NFL Gamepass and NHLtv together costs around £260 a year. Then add on around £150 a month for a Sky or Virgin to watch Premier League and Champions League games on Sky and BT channels. It's insane how expensive sports viewing has become.

Some people already mentioned the music industry. This kind of thing is how services like Spotify and Apple Music became the norm for younger people.
The Karen Murphy case in the UK wouldn't apply here in North America, as the UK High Court had to go to the European Court for clarification, and the European Court had intra-country market rules and copyrights to consider.

It absolutely is the blackouts. The blackouts ARE what forces me to buy a cable package. Otherwise I could just pick up a subscription for Hulu or similar service and be good to go. $15 a month for streaming TV plus games I actually want to watch is not “some version of a cable package”.
It's not the "blackouts" but perhaps I'm arguing semantics.

You can't purchase a package of all NHL games, as that offering has never existed. You can purchase services that will get you all games, and that comprises of purchasing the out-of-market games (NHL.tv, Center Ice) as well as a package that contains your in-market team(s), and that's the way it's always been.

I remember at one point it took a while for the streaming versions of the Regional Sports Networks (RSN's, such as the local NBCSN and Fox Sports channels) to have the ability to stream. There was an issue as the RSN's needed to contract not only with the teams but the NHL itself in order to provide permission to stream, as all of a sudden each of the Fox RSN's were able to start local streaming, and the local NBCSN RSN's came on board a little later. The issue I think that everyone has is that the local RSN won't allow streams without a provider credential, meaning you'd have to get cable or satellite in order to watch the streaming version. So in the case of local Hurricanes fans, Fox Sports Carolinas and Fox Sports Southeast aren't available for a la carte streaming purchase without subscribing to a "cable or satellite package". The question is whether or not the NHL has forced these RSN's to only stream to existing customers, and not create a new streaming market for services by providing the channel a la carte.

Which leads me to this little bit of legal news. It appears within this week a court has reinstated a class-action lawsuit regarding anti-trust violations of the Sherman Act between DirecTV and the NFL regarding the out-of-market package Sunday Ticket, with this synopsis from courthousenews.com. Basically, the heart of this suit is that individual NFL teams do not contract to televise their own games locally, so there could be anti-trust violations as through restraint of trade. In other words, because the Dallas Cowboys (and every other NFL team) don't have their own TV contract and have elected not to have one in deference to the NFL's negotiation of all broadcast rights, the plaintiffs state it constitutes an anti-trust violation.

This suit will get interesting.
 

ijuka

Registered User
May 14, 2016
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It's not the "blackouts".

You are already forced to purchase an out-of-market package if you want to see the most hockey. You are already forced to purchase some version of a cable package to see your home team.
And why? Because of the blackouts.

What's especially ridiculous is that blackouts apply even to Finland, even though I'm supposed to be out of all markets. So even I can't buy NHL network access. It's a system based in stone age.
The record industry went to crap once the piracy started. I can't wait to see what happens to sports leagues when revenues fall due to piracy. People think the current CBA is barely tenable between the two sides as it is. Wait for the cap to fall.
The record industry figured out that people actually will buy music if you make it convenient enough for them. Enter spotify / apple music-type platforms. And you know what? That's the route I'd suggest NHL to follow as well.
 

Hull and Oates

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May 8, 2012
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And why? Because of the blackouts.

The record industry figured out that people actually will rent music if you make it convenient enough for them. Enter spotify / apple music-type platforms. And you know what? That's the route I'd suggest NHL to follow as well.

Fixed.
 

tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
Feb 12, 2010
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It's not the "blackouts" but perhaps I'm arguing semantics.

You can't purchase a package of all NHL games, as that offering has never existed. You can purchase services that will get you all games, and that comprises of purchasing the out-of-market games (NHL.tv, Center Ice) as well as a package that contains your in-market team(s), and that's the way it's always been.

I remember at one point it took a while for the streaming versions of the Regional Sports Networks (RSN's, such as the local NBCSN and Fox Sports channels) to have the ability to stream. There was an issue as the RSN's needed to contract not only with the teams but the NHL itself in order to provide permission to stream, as all of a sudden each of the Fox RSN's were able to start local streaming, and the local NBCSN RSN's came on board a little later. The issue I think that everyone has is that the local RSN won't allow streams without a provider credential, meaning you'd have to get cable or satellite in order to watch the streaming version. So in the case of local Hurricanes fans, Fox Sports Carolinas and Fox Sports Southeast aren't available for a la carte streaming purchase without subscribing to a "cable or satellite package". The question is whether or not the NHL has forced these RSN's to only stream to existing customers, and not create a new streaming market for services by providing the channel a la carte.

I do agree that in a sense it's a little more complicated than just cable companies unilaterally screwing people over. My understanding is that the blackout policy begins with the league, which wants to force people into either buying a ticket or paying for media rights to its broadcast. To force the consumer's hand, the league negotiates blackouts as part of their exclusive contract with the regional TV network. In turn, the network works the logistics of that agreement into their exclusive contract with cable providers.

The issue that people are having is that this would all be fine if the cable providers were providing an a la carte option for access to that channel. A lot of people would be absolutely 100% OK with paying $10-$20 a month for a single channel, or even a small package of channels, so that they could access that exclusive broadcast. There is a huge market for this.

But, knowing that they have entire sports fanbases up against a wall, cable companies refuse to offer that product. Instead, they take the sports product and roll it into a huge package of channels -- many of them useless QVC-style garbage -- and give the consumer no option but to go that route. And they double down on that by structuring the bundles so that the consumer is given little option but to also use the cable company for internet access as well. As a result, the consumer who simply wanted to watch one show is now using the cable company for virtually all of their digital media. And there's no way out of the trap, unless you're willing to either stop watching your favorite team... or to watch pirated content.

Needless to say, this arrangement never favors the consumer. It is anti-competitive, artificially inflates sales for worthless content, and forces consumers to spend their money inefficiently for a low-quality product. The sheer market-inappropriateness of this model is being brought to the surface by cable companies getting absolutely killed as soon as people had the option to directly stream other services, including pirated products but also including legitimate products which were both higher quality AND lower cost than a cable package. By all rights cable companies should be dead already... they're hanging on by squeezing their remaining customer base into a particularly exploitative model.

Which leads me to this little bit of legal news. It appears within this week a court has reinstated a class-action lawsuit regarding anti-trust violations of the Sherman Act between DirecTV and the NFL regarding the out-of-market package Sunday Ticket, with this synopsis from courthousenews.com. Basically, the heart of this suit is that individual NFL teams do not contract to televise their own games locally, so there could be anti-trust violations as through restraint of trade. In other words, because the Dallas Cowboys (and every other NFL team) don't have their own TV contract and have elected not to have one in deference to the NFL's negotiation of all broadcast rights, the plaintiffs state it constitutes an anti-trust violation.

This suit will get interesting.

I have little faith in a positive outcome, but one can always hope. It's very clear that the entire system, from the sports league to the local franchise to the TV network to the cable company, all operates as a quasi-monopoly, which is what led us to this place.
 

LadyStanley

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Sep 22, 2004
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Teams negotiate deals with regional TV channels. (Now, guessing that the league has some criteria they'd like the teams to include in contract language, but rarely -- Arizona Coyotes notwithstanding -- does the NHL get involved with regional TV deals.)

The league, as an entity, negotiates the national TV deals. US and Canada. (Plus whatever they figure out for international coverage)
 

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