Sandin or Brannstrom

[Joider]

Not to people who have watched him play and understand hockey. I get that people over-estimate the ability of pretty much every single one of their prospects. Many Leafs fans are currently doing that big time with Liljegren as far as I am concerned.

You can say that line but it again it means nothing. I could easily find someone who dislikes Sandin's game, from watching him play, and use it to my advantage, but it would be meaningless as it would be a biased sentiment.

As for your earlier reply. I did mess up with the quoting bit. I thought Keefe was Babcock and I missed the AHL coach specification of the quote. I thought it was the writer saying the quote.

This is my fault and I'll take the loss on that portion. Although, I still think the quotes don't demonstrate anything. Of course Brannstrom needs to work on things, surely Sandin does as well, and of course Keefe likes Sandin. Again there are various biased takes you could have but one person's opinion really doesn't provide much to the argument, whoever they are.

I'm ignoring the World Juniors and Belleville bits as I've already stated that they're too small a sample size to draw anything from.

The numbers you throw around for expected plus-minus are interesting but don't take into account several factors. It's easy to multiply by top 4 usages but that doesn't specify what type of usage it was. Like defensive zone starts, offensive zone starts, power play time, and pk time. What are you using to get the in-depth stats because I can't find much online in regards to the AHL.

 

[biotk]

Although, I still think the quotes don't demonstrate anything. Of course Brannstrom needs to work on things, surely Sandin does as well, and of course Keefe likes Sandin. Again there are various biased takes you could have but one person's opinion really doesn't provide much to the argument, whoever they are.

Sure, coaches can say whatever they like. But they also have to back it up. Keefe wants an NHL job. Right now he wants nothing more than to win back-to-back Calder Cups. So who he puts on the ice the most, and who he puts on the ice during the most critical times of the game, and against their opponent's best players really matter. He is currently 6-0 this playoffs. Who did he play the most, by far, at the games I was at? Who did he have on the ice at the most critical times of the games? Who did he have against their opponent's best players? To me it easily went: Sandin (who played 28+ the first game, and must have been close to that the second), LoVerde, Borgman and then Liljegren. Playing Sandin big minutes towards the end of the regular season was one thing. Playing him more than LoVerde and Borgman in the playoffs is a shocker.

I don't know Brannstrom's usage for Belleville. And as I have said I think that he will be a good NHL player especially on the PP. I don't think that you can wrong with either one. But I put Sandin ahead. I was skeptical about him until I managed to get to a couple games to watch him play. Two games are not much. But you see how the coach is using him you know that this is not simply a good game or two. He's earned that trust and those minutes.

The numbers you throw around for expected plus-minus are interesting but don't take into account several factors.

I know that. Which is why I said that they suck. Useful statistics are simply not publicly available for the AHL at this time.

What are you using to get the in-depth stats because I can't find much online in regards to the AHL.

I go onto the few sites which show various things like who was on the ice for each goal and then do a lot of leg work.

 

[Joider]

Sure, coaches can say whatever they like. But they also have to back it up. Keefe wants an NHL job. Right now he wants nothing more than to win back-to-back Calder Cups. So who he puts on the ice the most, and who he puts on the ice during the most critical times of the game, and against their opponent's best players really matter. He is currently 6-0 this playoffs. Who did he play the most, by far, at the games I was at? Who did he have on the ice at the most critical times of the games? Who did he have against their opponent's best players? To me it easily went: Sandin (who played 28+ the first game, and must have been close to that the second), LoVerde, Borgman and then Liljegren. Playing Sandin big minutes towards the end of the regular season was one thing. Playing him more than LoVerde and Borgman in the playoffs is a shocker.



I know that. Which is why I said that they suck. Useful statistics are simply not publicly available for the AHL at this time.



I go onto the few sites which show various things like who was on the ice for each goal and then do a lot of leg work.

Fair points. I'm not a big fan of using player usage by a coach as an argument of quality simply because coaches on the NHL level seem to love to overplay some horrible players. Babcock, for example, overplayed Marleau, and I have PTSD because of how Boucher played Cody Ceci. All of that isn't to say that Sandin isn't the best player to play those minutes, but I usually take coach usage with a grain of salt, even when it's the best coaches.

Without better statistics, it's quite hard to further any dialogue and I think you made good points. So I'll end it here.

 

[biotk]

Fair points. I'm not a big fan of using player usage by a coach as an argument of quality simply because coaches on the NHL level seem to love to overplay some horrible players. Babcock, for example, overplayed Marleau, and I have PTSD because of how Boucher played Cody Ceci. All of that isn't to say that Sandin isn't the best player to play those minutes, but I usually take coach usage with a grain of salt, even when it's the best coaches.

Without better statistics, it's quite hard to further any dialogue and I think you made good points. So I'll end it here.

That is definitely a good point about coaches overplaying their pets and safety blankets. But, I feel the difference here is that those players are almost always grizzled vets. Keefe has those options with LoVerde (30 years old, led Manchester to a Calder Cup in 2015 and then was the shut down D on the Marlies Calder Cup win last year). Borgman (23, 48 games NHL experience) in the lineup, or even Liljegren (who is only a year older, but has the experience of winning the Calder last year), yet is playing Sandin more.

Keefe is also opting not to dress a couple vet Ds in order to play his young lineup (which includes 2 young rookies who had 2 AHL games of experience between them before the playoffs and are now the third pairing). Those vets include Oleksy (33, lots of AHL and NHL experience) and Subban (24, 4 years AHL experience),

The other thing is that Sandin worked his way up from the third pairing to minute monster over the course of the season. Liljegren played every game of the Calder Cup run last year, but was playing 3rd pairing minutes for most of the games during that run, and even during those couple top 4 games he was not playing the toughest minutes. I expected the same for Sandin this year.

 

[A4T1L6]

This is Brannstrom, clearly.

Leafs fans can try to rationalize the other choice however they want, like by playing the victim card on page 1 if that's what they want, but it's Brannstrom.

Literally every leaf fan in this thread is voting for Brannstrom, or saying how close it is lmao

 

[Morbo]

Brannstrom is probably still the higher end prospect at this point, but Sandin has really made a charge this season. He looks amazing for the Marlies.

 

[stempniaksen]

I'm pretty convinced Brannstrom has one of the highest ceiling's among defensive prospects in the entire league. The guy is so incredibly dynamic. Sandin is probably the safer bet though and he's obviously flashed some high end potential as well.

Depends what you need, but I think both guys settle in as #2 guys on their teams (behind Chabot and Reilly) sooner than later.

 

[A4T1L6]

I'm pretty convinced Brannstrom has one of the highest ceiling's among defensive prospects in the entire league. The guy is so incredibly dynamic. Sandin is probably the safer bet though and he's obviously flashed some high end potential as well.

Depends what you need, but I think both guys settle in as #2 guys on their teams (behind Chabot and Reilly) sooner than later.

My thoughts as well.

 

[Synesthesia]

Literally every leaf fan in this thread is voting for Brannstrom, or saying how close it is lmao

ok, go read page 1 lol

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

ok, go read page 1 lol

I just read the first page and only found 2 quotes suggesting anything other than what the poster you quoted said and neither was particularly controversial or over the top (maybe the second one):

"According just to the numbers its Sandin.
I wanted the Leafs to draft Brannstrom if he dropped 2 more spots."

"The only way Brannstrom wins this poll is reputation.
Sandin has outplayed him head to head when they've played in the AHL and his numbers are better at a younger age. His playoffs are also better hockey than Brannstrom has played at any point in the AHL."

 

[HappySabresFan]

 

[leafsfan2point0]

140-24 I figured they were going to be a lot closer than that.. I really don’t think one has made separation on the other yet, they’re both a lot closer then the votes dictate.

 

[VoluntaryDom]

upon further research sandin had a pretty crazy offensive year

 

[Fogelhund]

Sandin - AHL - 50 games - 35 points
- International Jr. Sweden - 7 games, 6 points.

Brannstrom - AHL - 50 games - 32 points
- International Jr. Sweden - 7 games, 6 points.

Anybody who suggests that this hasn't become close(r), is just delusional at this point. You have to go with Brannstrom, as he's got a longer track record of excellence, and continues to develop very well. But Sandin has been exceptional this year, matched Brannstrom, and is seven months, and a draft year after Brannstrom, so he certainly deserves accolades for an excellent season.

D-men can be pretty unpredictable, with some great ones coming from picks outside of the lottery area, so it isn't impossible that Sandin could continue to grow as a player and become better, but the safer bet is Brannstrom for now.

 

[Voodoo Child]

I'd say that Brannstrom is like a T-bone while Sandin is a Top Sirloin. Dahlin and Heskainen are Porterhouses.

They're both excellent cuts of meat and some people may prefer the Top Sirloin to the T-bone, but the general consensus is that the T-bone is a cut of slightly superior quality.

 

[Pyrophorus]

Blown by a few times a game? Who are you watching exactly?

Blinded by hate

 

[Pyrophorus]

This is Brannstrom, clearly.

Leafs fans can try to rationalize the other choice however they want, like by playing the victim card on page 1 if that's what they want, but it's Brannstrom.

Numbers state differently.

 

[A4T1L6]

ok, go read page 1 lol

Ok go read the post below yours lol

 

[Morgs]

I don't know if there's a defenseman that had a better season outside the NHL than Sandin.

But, I'd still take Brannstrom rather easily. The gap has closed significantly though, that's forsure.

 

[DFF]

Numbers state differently.

Ahl numbers do not completely tell the whole story

 

[spiny norman]

Lopsided result.