Confirmed with Link: Sam Reinhart sent down to Kootenay Ice

[1972]

The paranoid folks who see Nolan behind anything they don't like need to actually give evidence to support there pet theories. Having listened to multiple interviews with Murray there is literally nothing to suggest there is any divergence. In other words Murray has come out and said various thing since getting hired about his preferences for development and they're sync with Nolan's. Murray just sent back a kid he views as not being physically reading for the NHL. Nolan gave that kid the minutes that fit with how he was viewed by his GM.

Reinhart started 35% of his shifts in the defensive zone as an 18 year old offensive player, you will not find a GM that would agree with that. It's silly and completely unheard of. That doesn't fit at all with the way an 18 year old offensive player should be utilized. The things I took out of that interview is that Murray thinks Reinhart has NHL skill, NHL speed and has high end hockey sense and that if he were put in a different situation we may not be discussing his lack of strength.

 

[1972]

we're gonna see what we want to see in a nebulous statement like that

if murray is the type to let a coach like nolan push him around though he's not the gm some think he is

He already said that GMs GM, coaches coach and players play. He said he will not tell a coach what to do with his lineup but will evaluate him day to day. We won't know what he thinks until this off-season.

 

[5 Minute Major]

No they're not. It would be nice if the quote was posted in context. Though I suspect pulling it out of context to rile folks up was the intent.

Murray's comments were (Paraphrasing)

He (Reinhart) isn't strong enough, not heavy enough yet for the NHL. Thats the biggest issue for me (Murray). As things went on his (Reinhart) skating caught up to the pace of the game. But his strength was a big issue for me (Murray). The issue is not hockey sense, its not skill, its none of that, for me (Murray) the issue is strength. If he were playing 2nd line minutes we might not being having this conversation right now.

Then Murray was asked about being disappointed by what he got from Reinhart as an 18 year old. His answer …


No, not with the start we were off to. A young 18 year old player has a tendency to play to the way the team is going. If the team is successful some individual success comes to that young player. If the team is going through a rough patch, that young kid will go through a rough patch with the team. And the 18 year old is not the one that can get you out of the rough patch. He becomes part of the tide. When its high , he's high and when its low he's low. I think thats what we saw.


Seems pretty obvious he wasn't taking a shot at Nolan.

If strength was the biggest concern Murray had, wouldn't he be better suited in the Sabres training room? Murray said Reinhart caught up to the speed of the game and skill and hockey sense were not an issue.

Not really sure where I stand of him being sent down but if was only strength, it seems to me he would be better suited with the Sabres so they could make sure he is doing the proper things to gain that strength.

 

[Beerz]

It's possible that yes Murray's biggest issue was Sams strength and decided to send him down.... While at the same time not liking how Sam was utilized while he was up here. I mean he's on a 9 game tryout to get a look ...and you put him in the crappiest situations?

 

[enthusiast]

He already said that GMs GM, coaches coach and players play. He said he will not tell a coach what to do with his lineup but will evaluate him day to day. We won't know what he thinks until this off-season.

gms fire and hire coaches

 

[sabresandcanucks]

Not surprised, he didn't look strong enough in the summer and despite playing decent in Buffalo I'd rather see him light up the WHL getting 20 minutes a night than lose with this team playing four minutes a night.

 

[Jacob582]

He already said that GMs GM, coaches coach and players play. He said he will not tell a coach what to do with his lineup but will evaluate him day to day. We won't know what he thinks until this off-season.

That is what Tim Murray said...but, some past perspective:

On "Hockey Central” on AM 590 The Fan from Toronto host Doug MacLean (former Columbus GM and Florida coach) mentioned that Tim Murray loves to
"stick his nose" in the coaching business.

to which Murray replies, "I do." http://buffalosabresnow.blogspot.com...ives-some.html

 

[Jacob582]

Does anyone think that Sam Reinhart will start with the Rochester Americans next season?

 

[Havok89]

Does anyone think that Sam Reinhart will start with the Rochester Americans next season?

Depends on his training camp.

 

[Tapu Coco]

No they're not. It would be nice if the quote was posted in context. Though I suspect pulling it out of context to rile folks up was the intent.

Murray's comments were (Paraphrasing)

He (Reinhart) isn't strong enough, not heavy enough yet for the NHL. Thats the biggest issue for me (Murray). As things went on his (Reinhart) skating caught up to the pace of the game. But his strength was a big issue for me (Murray). The issue is not hockey sense, its not skill, its none of that, for me (Murray) the issue is strength. If he were playing 2nd line minutes we might not being having this conversation right now.

Then Murray was asked about being disappointed by what he got from Reinhart as an 18 year old. His answer …


No, not with the start we were off to. A young 18 year old player has a tendency to play to the way the team is going. If the team is successful some individual success comes to that young player. If the team is going through a rough patch, that young kid will go through a rough patch with the team. And the 18 year old is not the one that can get you out of the rough patch. He becomes part of the tide. When its high , he's high and when its low he's low. I think thats what we saw.


Seems pretty obvious he wasn't taking a shot at Nolan.

The paranoid folks who see Nolan behind anything they don't like need to actually give evidence to support there pet theories. Having listened to multiple interviews with Murray there is literally nothing to suggest there is any divergence. In other words Murray has come out and said various thing since getting hired about his preferences for development and they're sync with Nolan's. Murray just sent back a kid he views as not being physically reading for the NHL. Nolan gave that kid the minutes that fit with how he was viewed by his GM.

What am i being paranoid about? I just don't think Nolan is a good developmental coach, simple as that. If you want evidence, I'll point to his use of Reinhart and not using Ristolainen as much as he should be. But we'll have to agree to disagree. It just so happens that "what I don't like" is development-related, since development is the only thing worth tracking in this lost cause of a season. I'll give him credit where credit is due, but not until he earns it in my eyes. He gets a lot out of his players, but a lot of players are underachieving right now. Nothing's been working, with the exception of the penalty kill, and I'll acknowledge anything good he does...I'm objective. I just haven't seen much good this season, no one has.

In terms of the quote, yes, I only went off the small bit originally posted. I watched the Murray presser afterwards and I would agree with you, it wasn't directed towards Nolan in context. But that doesn't automatically mean that they are on the same wavelength, as 1972 pointed out. We don't know if there is a difference, and Murray isn't going to publicly call out his coach and vice versa. It doesn't change my opinion that Nolan is a bad developmental coach. Agree to disagree.

 

[Djp]

Does anyone think that Sam Reinhart will start with the Rochester Americans next season?

It depends on how he does and how buffalo gets to the cap floor.

Grgs and Larsson can't go to Rochester.

They will send him to Rochester instead of him playing on the 4th line.

 

[Djp]

What am i being paranoid about? I just don't think Nolan is a good developmental coach, simple as that. If you want evidence, I'll point to his use of Reinhart and not using Ristolainen as much as he should be. But we'll have to agree to disagree. It just so happens that "what I don't like" is development-related, since development is the only thing worth tracking in this lost cause of a season. I'll give him credit where credit is due, but not until he earns it in my eyes. He gets a lot out of his players, but a lot of players are underachieving right now. Nothing's been working, with the exception of the penalty kill, and I'll acknowledge anything good he does...I'm objective. I just haven't seen much good this season, no one has.

In terms of the quote, yes, I only went off the small bit originally posted. I watched the Murray presser afterwards and I would agree with you, it wasn't directed towards Nolan in context. But that doesn't automatically mean that they are on the same wavelength, as 1972 pointed out. We don't know if there is a difference, and Murray isn't going to publicly call out his coach and vice versa. It doesn't change my opinion that Nolan is a bad developmental coach. Agree to disagree.

I wonder how much of this is intentionally as part of the team tanking this season. I thnk they want to dig a deep enough hole to start and then play better to close the season.

 

[wunderpanda]

Pretty sure the second line remark was directed at Reinhart for not earning that spot outright and not aimed at Nolan.

 

[LaxSabre]

@SabresProspects -

WHL - Sam Reinhart remained out of the Kootenay lineup as the ICE defeated Lethbridge 6-5 in overtime.
It appears that the 18-year old captain will make his return next Friday when Kootenay faces the Edmonton Oil Kings.

(LaxSabre - so Samson will be facing a Edmonton with Oil in their nickname next Friday after-all - just not the Oilers.)

 

[jBuds]

@SabresProspects -

WHL - Sam Reinhart remained out of the Kootenay lineup as the ICE defeated Lethbridge 6-5 in overtime.
It appears that the 18-year old captain will make his return next Friday when Kootenay faces the Edmonton Oil Kings.

(LaxSabre - so Samson will be facing a Edmonton with Oil in their nickname next Friday after-all - just not the Oilers.)

Excited to hopefully see him dominate.

 

[ZeroPT*]

It depends on how he does and how buffalo gets to the cap floor.

Grgs and Larsson can't go to Rochester.

They will send him to Rochester instead of him playing on the 4th line.

This is not an issue like you think. I don't understand why people think it'll be an issue when Murray reached the floor within what an hour?

 

[Sabretooth]

He already said that GMs GM, coaches coach and players play. He said he will not tell a coach what to do with his lineup but will evaluate him day to day. We won't know what he thinks until this off-season.

Murray giving Nolan as much rope as he needs to hang himself with

 

[UnleashRasmus]

Sam has things to work on, like most 18 year old's do. Not many can claim to have the immediate success of Nathan MacKinnon or others. There are countless other examples that come to mind. Yes, he has a right to be upset, but he's still a youngster. This should help him become mentally tougher. If anyone thought he was staying after game 10 based on what you saw in preseason call me on it. I like the potential as you can see with his passing and vision. Either way it was a great look at the future of the Sabres.

 

[UnleashRasmus]

Murray giving Nolan as much rope as he needs to hang himself with

That was the laugh I needed this morning. LMAO.

 

[Zip15]

It depends on how he does and how buffalo gets to the cap floor.

Grgs and Larsson can't go to Rochester.

They will send him to Rochester instead of him playing on the 4th line.

There you go again...

The cap floor is a non-issue.

 

[Ethan Edwards]

Add me to the minority in this thread--very disappointing decision. It doesn't progress his development, merely stalls it for a year. I fully admit that Reinhart did nothing to force Murray's hand here, so in that sense sending him down was foreseeable. However...

I keep reading how it's "so exciting" that he'll be able to go back to Jrs. and dominate and how he needs keep developing in Jrs., etc. Here are his Jr. totals:

Year Team GP G A Pts PIM
2010–11 Kootenay Ice 4 2 0 2 0
2011–12 Kootenay Ice 67 28 34 62 2
2012–13 Kootenay Ice 72 35 50 85 22
2013–14 Kootenay Ice 60 36 69 105 11

He's already shown he can dominate in Jrs. Continuing to dominate is great and sounds fantastic, but it won't raise his level. No, going back doesn't hurt him, but it isn't going to help him either, at least on the ice. His on-ice development at the Junior level is over. Off the ice (meaning not in-game) is where he needs work (strength and skating), no argument. He could just as easily, and probably better, accomplish that in Buffalo, even with the tire fire the team has become (his maturity has never been in question). Let him practice with the team, play in some games (even with linemates that seem sub-par), scratch him in others so he can further work on strength and conditioning, and properly develop him at the NHL level. And let him work with the pro skating coach Buffalo employs. All of this is preferable, IMO, to going back for yet another year at Kootenay, where he's already developed as much as that league will allow. This is true even if you believe, as I did, Nolan is doing a disservice to the kid in-game. Besides, I noticed clear game-to-game improvement from the kid (his smarts have never been in question). Regardless, there's much more to his development than ice time and in-game use, though that was part of it and I believe that issue, his strength/skating, and the fact he didn't blow folks away is why he was sent back down.

And SR is a huge part of this team's future, so ELC status, while arguably an ancillary consideration, has ZERO to do with the decision. It's solely where the team feels he'll best develop. I disagree with their decision on that score.

 

[EichHart]

Add me to the minority in this thread--very disappointing decision. It doesn't progress his development, merely stalls it for a year. I fully admit that Reinhart did nothing to force Murray's hand here, so in that sense sending him down was foreseeable. However...

I keep reading how it's "so exciting" that he'll be able to go back to Jrs. and dominate and how he needs keep developing in Jrs., etc. Here are his Jr. totals:

Year Team GP G A Pts PIM
2010–11 Kootenay Ice 4 2 0 2 0
2011–12 Kootenay Ice 67 28 34 62 2
2012–13 Kootenay Ice 72 35 50 85 22
2013–14 Kootenay Ice 60 36 69 105 11

He's already shown he can dominate in Jrs. Continuing to dominate is great and sounds fantastic, but it won't raise his level. No, going back doesn't hurt him, but it isn't going to help him either, at least on the ice. His on-ice development at the Junior level is over. Off the ice (meaning not in-game) is where he needs work (strength and skating), no argument. He could just as easily, and probably better, accomplish that in Buffalo, even with the tire fire the team has become (his maturity has never been in question). Let him practice with the team, play in some games (even with linemates that seem sub-par), scratch him in others so he can further work on strength and conditioning, and properly develop him at the NHL level. And let him work with the pro skating coach Buffalo employs. All of this is preferable, IMO, to going back for yet another year at Kootenay, where he's already developed as much as that league will allow. This is true even if you believe, as I did, Nolan is doing a disservice to the kid in-game. Besides, I noticed clear game-to-game improvement from the kid (his smarts have never been in question). Regardless, there's much more to his development than ice time and in-game use, though that was part of it and I believe that issue, his strength/skating, and the fact he didn't blow folks away is why he was sent back down.

And SR is a huge part of this team's future, so ELC status, while arguably an ancillary consideration, has ZERO to do with the decision. It's solely where the team feels he'll best develop. I disagree with their decision on that score.

Drouin had already proven to dominate juniors as well and he went back. Look at him now.

 

[Dex]

Murray giving Nolan as much rope as he needs to hang himself with

That was the laugh I needed this morning. LMAO.

Me too. I do think Nolan is the perfect coach for Buffalo this season. Next year or the year after when many of the veterans are gone and there is a wave of younger prospects hitting the Sabres more or less simultaneously, I'm thinking we'll be seeing another coach.

 

[Ethan Edwards]

Drouin had already proven to dominate juniors as well and he went back. Look at him now.

So you're saying sending Drouin back down to Jrs. didn't hurt him? I said the same thing. Or are you saying the uber-talented Drouin is stepping in seamlessly because he spent an extra year in Jrs.? I'd love to know how you'd prove that, especially considering Drouin is stepping into a far better team situation than SR. I'm more familiar with Jr. level Drouin than I am with Jr. level SR, and I made the same argument last year for Drouin. I was very surprised he was sent down, but never did I believe it would hurt him. But I do believe Drouin would have better developed with the big club in Tampa last year. And obviously this argument is reserved for a very, very select few draftees, with SR and Drouin both fitting the criteria, regardless of which way we come down.

 

[EichHart]

So you're saying sending Drouin back down to Jrs. didn't hurt him? I said the same thing. Or are you saying the uber-talented Drouin is stepping in seamlessly because he spent an extra year in Jrs.? I'd love to know how you'd prove that, especially considering Drouin is stepping into a far better team situation than SR. I'm more familiar with Jr. level Drouin than I am with Jr. level SR, and I made the same argument last year for Drouin. I was very surprised he was sent down, but never did I believe it would hurt him. But I do believe Drouin would have better developed with the big club in Tampa last year. And obviously this argument is reserved for a very, very select few draftees, with SR and Drouin both fitting the criteria, regardless of which way we come down.

I'd love to see how you prove it hurt him...That statement works both ways. Drouin is dominating now, with an extra year to develop on things he needed help with.