Sam Gagner (will not be bought out)

[SchennSational1022*]

It's the way you write, with exaggeration. In this case for example when you use the "headshake" or describe my view as "absurd".

Sry for off-topic.

Nevermind, still enjoy your posts.

Aggressive may be the word to say, you're right, I shall tame myself from now on .

I love keeping Gagner, if he's good, we hit a home run, if he sucks, he's gone next summer. I just see people on here constantly saying how we need MORE depth, and bringing in Gagner in addition to the forwards we have now, is doing just that. Bringing in Gagner and trading B. Schenn because of it, isn't just risky alone, it's a lateral move AT BEST. We shouldn't be looking to trade any of our young forwards IMO.

 

[deadhead]

I don't get the issue with at least giving Gagner a chance here. If it doesn't work, he's a UFA next season. No strings attached.

I don't think there's an issue in giving Gagner a chance, in my mind, he's a one year FA acquisition (because even if he put up 50 points without a -20, no way do you pay "market value" next year - you don't bring him back without a serious discount and incentive clauses due to his track record).

The issue is the exaggerated expectations, like he's a "40 point scorer" - yeah, for BOTH TEAMS. If he was a real top six winger, he'd have been traded for a lot more than Grossman. Heck, they had to throw in a draft pick to seal the deal.

Raffl scored 20 goals and played responsible defense on the first line, you're gonna replace him with a career underachiever? Get a life!

 

[Striiker]

Are you aware that they don't need to hand in a concrete lineup card at the beginning of the season?

They can change the lineup every week. Every day. Every shift.

Might as well trying him all over the lineup just to see what's best, doing anything else would be irresponsible. If Raffl is a better fit then put Raffl back there.

Not a big deal at all.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Gagner isn't making anybody on this roster expandable right now that wasn't already to begin with. His career is on the rocks & he still has a lot to prove whether or not he's worth a roster spot in the NHL going forward.

His basic point totals might not look bad but that's basically all you get with him (Edmonton was a poor all around team but they had good offensive talent when he was there). The NHL is shifting towards becoming a versatile league where one trick ponies are having a tough time sticking. So he's either gonna have to suddenly develop an all around game which is unlikely or start scoring a higher clip to outweigh his deficiencies otherwise he'll just find himself in Europe after next year.

 

[SchennSational1022*]

Are you aware that they don't need to hand in a concrete lineup card at the beginning of the season?

They can change the lineup every week. Every day. Every shift.

Might as well trying him all over the lineup just to see what's best, doing anything else would be irresponsible. If Raffl is a better fit then put Raffl back there.

Not a big deal at all.

Exactly, it's not like what we send out there game 1 on lineup card must be same for the next 81 games. There will be times while we're all screaming for Raffl to get away from G and V, and others where we are praising his hard work with them. So it goes for an inconsistent team.

 

[Striiker]

Gagner isn't making anybody on this roster expandable right now that wasn't already to begin with. His career is on the rocks & he still has a lot to prove whether or not he's worth a roster spot in the NHL going forward.

His basic point totals might not look bad but that's basically all you get with him (Edmonton was a poor all around team but they had good offensive talent when he was there). The NHL is shifting towards becoming a versatile league where one trick ponies are having a tough time sticking. So he's either gonna have to suddenly develop an all around game which is unlikely or start scoring a higher clip to outweigh his deficiencies otherwise he'll just find himself in Europe after next year.

Pretty sure that's the goal here. I assume they're thinking that if he can score 40+ on bottom 3 teams that he can hopefully score more on a better offensive team, to the point that his lack of defense is acceptable.

 

[deadhead]

Pretty sure that's the goal here. I assume they're thinking that if he can score 40+ on bottom 3 teams that he can hopefully score more on a better offensive team, to the point that his lack of defense is acceptable.

Problem is it's often the opposite.
On a bad team, players free lance and try to pad their stats.
On good teams, players who aren't disciplined and responsible collect a lot of splinters.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Pretty sure that's the goal here. I assume they're thinking that if he can score 40+ on bottom 3 teams that he can hopefully score more on a better offensive team, to the point that his lack of defense is acceptable.

As do I, I think the plan will be to give him Lecavalier minutes essentially to potential drive up his actual worth. I have a hard time really seeing him being in a Flyers uniform past this year though. He's just another poor defending forward in a very average group overall.

I don't consider him a reclamation project like Mason or MDZ as those guys had much more overall upside to their games than Gagner.

 

[tymed]

I've always been a Gagner fan, pretty happy to be keeping him around. He's got a better offensive mind than most of the players on this team and is likely going to do pretty well playing with more gifted players than himself. I don't see him fitting at C and like everyone else coming through here, is likely going to be tried at LW. I see him fitting pretty well on the left side of our top 6 and he definitely makes our PP2 unit better. I think his creativity and offensive IQ can help G/Jake at even strength where they've shown to struggle with consistency.

 

[TheKingPin]

I don't see a Massive boost in production but as a top 9 fwd on haks proposed system.

Also remember that read was dealing with a high ankle sprain which is pretty significant in hockey.

I believe umberger had a sports hernia, also significant in hockey.

I expect both to be better than last year and at least read to his last year form.

 

[Blue And Orange]

Who knows if Gagner will thrive with anyone?

We're talking a kid who basically mailed it in the last two years at Edmonton, then convinced his GM of his new team that he couldn't play in the NHL.

We know he's a defensive liability, which given his size, 5'11 202, screams "no heart" to me, he's not a 170 lb winger with reasonable trepidation about going into corners, he just doesn't want to fight for the puck or do the dirty work.

After 7 years, you usually get what you see, he's not a 21 year old kid who could suddenly break out after struggling for a year or two. Remember Ville Leino? One big season, got paid, went back to his mediocre self. To me that's Gagner's UPSIDE.

Now there's an outside chance he could be a Joffrey Lupul who blossomed in Philly after struggling with bad teams, but Lupul had a better track record than Gagner. (Lupul struggled due to injuries after he left Philly). But I'm not willing to give him a big contract next year even if he puts up 20 goals and 50 points. So to me he's a one year rental.

I will tell you this. The "no heart" comment is not true. Gagner has heart and he is a hard worker. The problem with Gagner is he's not athletically built. Some players are better built than others. Gagner is bit more on the chubby side. With that said, I can tell you for certain that Gagner gave it his all during his 7 years in Edmonton on some horrible teams. His defensive game sucks, yes, but it's not out of laziness, but just out of the fact that he isn't very good at it and usually panics in the defensive zone. Keep in mind, the Oilers under the previous regime isn't exactly a great environment for young prospects to thrive.

 

[deadhead]

I will tell you this. The "no heart" comment is not true. Gagner has heart and he is a hard worker. The problem with Gagner is he's not athletically built. Some players are better built than others. Gagner is bit more on the chubby side. With that said, I can tell you for certain that Gagner gave it his all during his 7 years in Edmonton on some horrible teams. His defensive game sucks, yes, but it's not out of laziness, but just out of the fact that he isn't very good at it and usually panics in the defensive zone. Keep in mind, the Oilers under the previous regime isn't exactly a great environment for young prospects to thrive.

So, you're saying he lacks hockey instincts?

Chubby? Stocky is a good build for a guy 5'11, i.e. low center of gravity, should be tough to knock off his skates, chubby sounds like a conditioning issue.

I know Edmonton is where prospects go to die, but he didn't exactly impress his next team either.

Not saying he can't turn his career around, just saying don't write him in as a top 6 forward right now. With Hakstol, I think he's going to have to earn his ice time, nothing will be given to him. And it doesn't sound like he's going to play center, he's been a fail at that position for a while.

 

[healthyscratch]

Also remember that read was dealing with a high ankle sprain which is pretty significant in hockey.

I believe umberger had a sports hernia, also significant in hockey.

You know that really pisses me off. Yea yea it's admirable and hockey players are tough and play through pain yada yada. But when you're clearly not producing BECAUSE of the injury, then sit the **** down and heal. Especially Read, if he loses his burst then he can't generate anything which he wasn't doing. Again it's admirable but when it comes to the point of being a negative then it's time to sit.

 

[SanBlom]

You know that really pisses me off. Yea yea it's admirable and hockey players are tough and play through pain yada yada. But when you're clearly not producing BECAUSE of the injury, then sit the **** down and heal. Especially Read, if he loses his burst then he can't generate anything which he wasn't doing. Again it's admirable but when it comes to the point of being a negative then it's time to sit.

Couldn't agree with you more! Brindy used to do this to keep his ironman streak alive and it drove me nuts! He got kudos from everyone, but there is a point where you need to just sit out and heal! I know it's hard.....I had a hard time keeping my son out when he got his first concussion last year, but I thought of this exact topic and made myself take him out.

 

[deadhead]

Problem was Flyers had ZERO forward depth last year, if Read or Umberger sat, Vinnie and Rinaldo had to play.

 

[Blue And Orange]

So, you're saying he lacks hockey instincts?

Chubby? Stocky is a good build for a guy 5'11, i.e. low center of gravity, should be tough to knock off his skates, chubby sounds like a conditioning issue.

I know Edmonton is where prospects go to die, but he didn't exactly impress his next team either.

Not saying he can't turn his career around, just saying don't write him in as a top 6 forward right now. With Hakstol, I think he's going to have to earn his ice time, nothing will be given to him. And it doesn't sound like he's going to play center, he's been a fail at that position for a while.

The Oilers tried to force him into a centre role because they lacked centre depth. He should've been converted to a winger a long time ago. When the Oilers traded Cogliano, the Ducks made him into a winger and he thrived since. Gagner was continually being forced to become a centre and the Oilers brass continued to get him to build muscle mass instead of working on his footspeed. When Gagner was a rookie, he played wing and was generally very effective in that role. But the Oilers were stupid and tried to make him a centre. He's a prime example of the Oilers old regime and their inability to identify prospect's strength and develop them properly.

With that said, I agree he's going to have to earn his ice time. He's pretty much a reclamation project with a chip on his shoulder. This could very last be his last NHL season to prove that he belongs in the league. I think he can bounce back because the Flyers aren't a dysfunctional franchise like the Kevin Lowe-led Oilers and last year's Coyotes so he might be exposed to a winning culture for once in his career. Secondly, him and his wife are about to have their first child so that may give him extra motivation to play harder because he now has a family to provide for. The conditions are definitely ripe for him to salvage his otherwise underwhelming career.

Nonetheless, I've always supported Gagner no matter what. Even though he's no longer an Oiler, he's a great teammate, a hard worker, and a class act. Hope he works out for you guys.

 

[SchennSational1022*]

I have a hard time believing a guy who has put up the respectable numbers Gagner has will be out of the league even if he ****s the bed this year, which is doubtful IMO. There is many worse players than him and he still is good for 40 points a year, even if his defense sucks. Teams need scoring.

 

[Blue And Orange]

I have a hard time believing a guy who has put up the respectable numbers Gagner has will be out of the league even if he ****s the bed this year, which is doubtful IMO. There is many worse players than him and he still is good for 40 points a year, even if his defense sucks. Teams need scoring.

Maybe out of the league is a stretch but if he stinks the joint this season, the best hope for him to be an NHLer is be a journeyman forward that plays for $1 million a year contracts. But since he's about to have his first child, he might want some stability so that might not be ideal for him.

 

[deadhead]

The Oilers tried to force him into a centre role because they lacked centre depth. He should've been converted to a winger a long time ago. When the Oilers traded Cogliano, the Ducks made him into a winger and he thrived since. Gagner was continually being forced to become a centre and the Oilers brass continued to get him to build muscle mass instead of working on his footspeed. When Gagner was a rookie, he played wing and was generally very effective in that role. But the Oilers were stupid and tried to make him a centre. He's a prime example of the Oilers old regime and their inability to identify prospect's strength and develop them properly.

With that said, I agree he's going to have to earn his ice time. He's pretty much a reclamation project with a chip on his shoulder. This could very last be his last NHL season to prove that he belongs in the league. I think he can bounce back because the Flyers aren't a dysfunctional franchise like the Kevin Lowe-led Oilers and last year's Coyotes so he might be exposed to a winning culture for once in his career. Secondly, him and his wife are about to have their first child so that may give him extra motivation to play harder because he now has a family to provide for. The conditions are definitely ripe for him to salvage his otherwise underwhelming career.

Nonetheless, I've always supported Gagner no matter what. Even though he's no longer an Oiler, he's a great teammate, a hard worker, and a class act. Hope he works out for you guys.

If he's willing to work hard, he has a chance. From all reports, Hakstol is a smart coach, and obviously knows how to develop young players.

Moving to wing may help Gagner simply because he won't feel he "knows what he's doing" and will be more receptive to hard coaching. If he's overbuilt, dropping to 190 lbs at the wing and skating faster is fine, but I think to get ice time here he's going to have to play disciplined defense, bad teams may play 40 point guys and ignore their defense, Hakstol has a reputation for requiring disciplined play from his players in college and I expect the same will hold here.

The guys he'll have to beat out are good defensive wingers on the left side (Raffl 20 goals last year, Read 20 goals a year until his ankle injury, Umberger 20 goals and physical if healthy), and top scorers on the RW (Voracek, Schenn and Simmonds). So nothing will be given to him, and I doubt he's capable of playing on the 4th line.

While Flyer fans assume he'll beat out Umberger, he'll have to beat a more physical veteran who's proven he can score goals when healthy, and Cousins won't go down without a fight (feisty undersized center with a scoring touch who'll move to wing this year).

Which might help Gagner, in some ways there's less pressure when the expectations are lower and you can work your way into a role than being a high pick who's supposed to be a cornerstone player.

I'd like to see him succeed, I suspect the Flyers could resign him at a discount because the league would be skeptical that his success could be duplicated elsewhere given his history - and he does have raw talent.

 

[Curufinwe]

Still not practicing after hitting his head on the ice nine days ago. It's pretty safe to assume he's dealing with a concussion.

 

[deadhead]

He's been pretty much a nonentity, he's not scared, he's just doesn't have the skills to play at a high level - you could see that in training camp watching Konecny, who has "it", Gagner just seems to struggle in a crowd, skates well, but doesn't have any outstanding attributes or good instincts.

He's like the "five tool guy" in baseball, on paper there's star potential, but on the ice he just seems to be blah. People rag on Raffl, who lacks the shooting and puck handling skills you want in a 1st line forward, but who also skates well and uses that speed to both forecheck aggressively and get back on defense - for all his deficiencies, he makes a bigger positive impression on me than Gagner.

When you look at Corsi, this stands out, Raffl is outplaying Gagner by a substantial margin (some due to O-zone starts, but also Rel CF). The only players doing worse are Laughton, Umberger, VV and White. His edge is he scores at a higher rate than Raffl at ES, but Umberger scores at a higher rate than Gagner. Which is kind of weird, and probably a SSS anomaly.

 

[Larry44]

Still not practicing after hitting his head on the ice nine days ago. It's pretty safe to assume he's dealing with a concussion.

He was terrible before it, now he's been passed by Cousins. Waive him.