Salary Cap: Salary Cap+Roster Building: 'twas a great run....

[KIRK]

Well we both know the media is a sounding board for the org to test the waters and sometimes send players a message, like they did with Letang in Nov-Dec of ‘17, or last season right before Hags was dealt.

Maybe this is one of those cases, but he has a full NMC and we shall see how this story is countered.

Yeah, I'd considered the sounding board angle. BUT, if that's the play, then while less dumb than the alternative explanation, I'm not sure they've thought through how it can blow up in their faces.

As an aside, it will be interesting to hear if Malkin even catches wind. I suspect he will. The problem is it will come through someone close to him delivering a filtered message.

Eh, they're ******* idiots. JR. Sullivan. It's Shero/Bylsma 2.o.

 

[EliteGoaltending]

I'm not sure how proactively great Bottlerocket was, but it's pretty clear he was the 'don't do stupid crap JR' whisperer.

EDIT: Also pretty clear Tocchet played the same role for Sullivan.

I think that Sullivan is just bad at adjusting and his decision making became more and more questionable/bad as time went on.

He got clearly outcoached by Trotz in two last postseasons and was one of the main culprits of this team badly performing in RS (this season it was an one line team, and Sullivan could make it more than that).

But I think he was the main guy behind the turn around for this team in 2016, first speaking about identity and quick puck movement. Now it's all - his vision and good governance - aged like milk.

 

[KIRK]

I think that Sullivan is just bad at adjusting and his decision making became more and more questionable/bad as time went on.

He got clearly outcoached by Trotz in two last postseasons and was one of the main culprits of this team badly performing in RS (this season it was an one line team, and Sullivan could make it more thatn that).

But I think he was the main guy behind the turn around for this team in 2016, first speaking about identity and fast puck movement. Now it's all - his visionand his ruling - aged like milk.

As I keep saying, Sullivan is still coaching the team he had 3 years ago in a league that's faster, more structured and disciplined defensively, and has adapted to the Penguins.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Yeah, I'd considered the sounding board angle. BUT, if that's the play, then while less dumb than the alternative explanation, I'm not sure they've thought through how it can blow up in their faces.

As an aside, it will be interesting to hear if Malkin even catches wind. I suspect he will. The problem is it will come through someone close to him delivering a filtered message.

Eh, they're ******* idiots. JR. Sullivan. It's Shero/Bylsma 2.o.

Gotta wait and see if JR doubles down, then we will know it’s a message to Malkin.

Even if they are annoyed at him like they are Letang, he can nix any deal. So not sure what the benefit is here when the player holds all of the power.

 

[Pancakes]

I really don't think they'd move Malkin, and the article itself mentions that a source close to Mario indicated that Mario wants Geno to finish his career in Pittsburgh.

That said, JR not immediately denying Malkin moving can't be viewed as anything other than what it sounds like which is that JR *is* considering the possibility. Because if Yohe had asked about Sid, what would have the answer been? "No way. Never. Don't know where you heard that, but it's wrong."

Why not the same response for Malkin? It can only be that they are considering it. But if Mario would never sign off on it, then WHY are they considering it? Like @KIRK said something is very off here.

 

[KIRK]

Gotta wait and see if JR doubles down, then we will know it’s a message to Malkin.

Even if they are annoyed at him like they are Letang, he can nix any deal. So not sure what the benefit is here when the player holds all of the power.

Well, if you KNOW Mario won't okay you initiating things (i.e., asking Malkin to waive), then this type of passive aggressive bull**** would be the way an idiot would go about trying to steer Malkin into asking out himself, no?

 

[Turin]

Well, if you KNOW Mario won't okay you initiating things (i.e., asking Malkin to waive), then this type of passive aggressive bull**** would be the way an idiot would go about trying to steer Malkin into asking out himself, no?

But Mario isn’t stupid, and JR would still be fired if it got to that point, so it’d be nothing but self-sabotage.

 

[KIRK]

I really don't think they'd move Malkin, and the article itself mentions that a source close to Mario indicated that Mario wants Geno to finish his career in Pittsburgh.

That said, JR not immediately denying Malkin moving can't be viewed as anything other than what it sounds like which is that JR *is* considering the possibility. Because if Yohe had asked about Sid, what would have the answer been? "No way. Never. Don't know where you heard that, but it's wrong."

Why not the same response for Malkin? It can only be that they are considering it. But if Mario would never sign off on it, then WHY are they considering it? Like @KIRK said something is very off here.

Yeah, I don't see how you can dance around that one.

But, in fairness to @Mr Jiggyfly, whether it's them trying to goad him into asking out (as an end around on having to ask Mario if they can ask him to waive) or sending a message (to a player out of the country, which is weird) or something else is the big question.

Side note: Let's see what happens with Gonchar. He went to coaching more part time this year to spend more time with his family in Dallas.

 

[KIRK]

But Mario isn’t stupid, and JR would still be fired if it got to that point, so it’d be nothing but self-sabotage.

Perhaps, but at that point, Geno already has asked. It's a ****show no matter what Mario does then.

BTW, I do agree that it would be nothing but self-sabatoge, but I've become convinced watching JR operate over the last 18 months that he may be that obtuse.

EDIT: I do wonder if, as someone suggested, it's possible Malkin did a soft ask out, and they're printing this 'uncoachable' stuff (a) to shape the story about why and (b) because they know Malkin is out of the country and won't see it.

 

[Pancakes]

Yeah, I don't see how you can dance around that one.

But, in fairness to @Mr Jiggyfly, whether it's them trying to goad him into asking out (as an end around on having to ask Mario if they can ask him to waive) or sending a message (to a player out of the country, which is weird) or something else is the big question.

Side note: Let's see what happens with Gonchar. He went to coaching more part time this year to spend more time with his family in Dallas.

JR doesn't strike me as cunning enough to try and force Malkin to ask for a trade.

Maybe all this is is them sending a message to Malkin to buck up and accept that Sullivan is here to stay. But that message could be sent privately instead of publicly.

I don't know. The whole thing is strange as hell.

 

[KIRK]

JR doesn't strike me as cunning enough to try and force Malkin to ask for a trade.

Maybe all this is is them sending a message to Malkin to buck up and accept that Sullivan is here to stay. But that message could be sent privately instead of publicly.

I don't know. The whole thing is strange as hell.

That's what is throwing me about what @Mr Jiggyfly said. Letang doesn't listen to anyone, which is why they have gone with the public stuff before.

I suppose we'll see. I just hope it's something stupid, like the coach and to a lesser extent the GM trying to deflect some uncomfortable questions that could have been raised from above after Malkin's end of season comments.

 

[EliteGoaltending]

Perhaps, but at that point, Geno already has asked. It's a ****show no matter what Mario does then.

BTW, I do agree that it would be nothing but self-sabatoge, but I've become convinced watching JR operate over the last 18 months that he may be that obtuse.

EDIT: I do wonder if, as someone suggested, it's possible Malkin did a soft ask out, and they're printing this 'uncoachable' stuff (a) to shape the story about why and (b) because they know Malkin is out of the country and won't see it.

KIRK, I think you're getting it a bit too far with all the theories tbh.

I think this regime been sabotaging Malkin in terms of support/linemates and d-man (especially recently) for some time, but Geno would never ask out.
Them wanting him out, with all this sabotaging in terms of support and now talk, wouldn't surprise me.
Like, the main media narrative, that Malkin lost a step, but his skating been the same as last year, he just didn't have any help from his line and D line for most of the season, but you'll never seen this writen.

Generally, what I also think, this organization/head coach sometimes are very bad at evaluating their players.
Like, overestimating guys like ZAR and JJ, for example ( giving them bigger roles that they should have, thinking that they bring certain elements that they really don't) and Geno is one of who they're underrestimating, imo.

 

[turd]

GMJR is going to destroy this team like he did to Carolina. He’s gotta go.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

It's a big relief that @Jesse posted that Mario wants Malkin to finish his career in Pittsburgh. I never thought it likely they'd move Geno anyways, but if Mario doesn't want it, it definitely won't happen.

Mario also knows Malkin being one of the top players in the league what it’s like to have coaching issues and bad mixes with personnel. As a player he drove change to be made for both which is why he has Malkin’s back on this.

 

[ChaosAgent]

An immutable fact is that our future isn't that bright. For years, the Penguins were near the top of the "now and future" rankings, who had the brightest near-term outlook, etc. Now it is middle of the pack at best.

Some of this is due to the aging of the big-name players:
*Sid may be losing his extra gear offensively
*Geno played like an average 2C for about half the season which is alarming.
*Kessel is good at points but bad at hockey.
*Hornqvist is an unskilled 3rd liner
*Letang is rarely healthy enough for long enough to be at his best...and for the team around him to figure out how to maximize itself around him.

Some of it is that the bottom half of our roster is outright garbage and value-less. People saying we we're obviously the more skilled team versus the Isles...why? Skill is judged by 1-18 on the roster, not 1-5.

Dark days are ahead.

 

[Ginormousthumbs]

Mario should just can JR right now.

 

[vodeni]

Not sure if Malkin is in your future plans, but guys like Johnson is bolted down, right JR?

best defense ever

 

[EliteGoaltending]

An immutable fact is that our future isn't that bright. For years, the Penguins were near the top of the "now and future" rankings, who had the brightest near-term outlook, etc. Now it is middle of the pack at best.

Some of this is due to the aging of the big-name players:
*Sid may be losing his extra gear offensively
*Geno played like an average 2C for about half the season which is alarming.
*Kessel is good at points but bad at hockey.
*Hornqvist is an unskilled 3rd liner
*Letang is rarely healthy enough for long enough to be at his best...and for the team around him to figure out how to maximize itself around him.

Some of it is that the bottom half of our roster is outright garbage and value-less. People saying we we're obviously the more skilled team versus the Isles...why? Skill is judged by 1-18 on the roster, not 1-5.

Dark days are ahead.

Nah, aside from injury concerns, Pens still can be good with a smart management in front.
They need upgrades on D and on wing.

The smart management would be thinking how to get rid of JJ's contract and what to do with RW position (that many called the "strength" before the season and I already had concerns, mainly because of a fit). I'd trade two out of Kessel, Hornqvist and Rust and put the other on 3rd wing. Find younger replacements, who are fast and play more well-rounded game. Or at least consider, that you need to have a guy like Hagelin or Guentzel playing opposite a guy like Kessel, or guy like Guentzel playing opposite of guy like Hornqvist. It's a must, practically. Find one or couple mobile Dman with puck-moving ability

Guentzel-Crosby-x
x-Malkin-x
x-Bjug-Kessel/Hornqvist/Rust
x-Blueger-x
Insert McCann in one of x.

But JR is still has a job, so you'll never know. With him ruling (or maybe they'll boot him and find even worse replacement lol, Morehouse isn't on my trust list either), then dark days are ahead, indeed.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Nah, aside from injury concerns, Pens still can be good with a smart management in front.
They need upgrades on D and on wing.

The smart management would be thinking how to get rid of JJ's contract and what to do with RW position (that many called the "strength" before the season and I already had concerns, mainly because of a fit). I'd trade two out of Kessel, Hornqvist and Rust and put the other on 3rd wing. Find younger replacements, who are fast and play more well-rounded game. Or at least consider, that you need to have a guy like Hagelin or Guentzel playing opposite a guy like Kessel, or guy like Guentzel playing opposite of guy like Hornqvist. It's a must, practically. Find one or couple mobile Dman with puck-moving ability

Guentzel-Crosby-x
x-Malkin-x
x-Bjug-Kessel/Hornqvist/Rust
x-Blueger-x
Insert McCann in one of x.

But JR is still has a job, so you'll never know. With him ruling (or maybe they'll boot him and find even worse replacement lol, Morehouse isn't on my trust list either), then dark days are ahead, indeed.

What you are describing is really difficult to do. Young, good, skilled players are not easy to find. We have only 1, really (Guentzel). We are not in a good position looking forward at all, unless we can outright swindle teams in the Kessel/Hornqvist deals.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

Here’s the bottom line on Geno.

We all know he’s an emotional guy. He’s extremely competitive. He cares and wears his feelings on his sleeve. When shit is going well with winning, he’s on board. When shit isn’t going well with winning, you see the cracks appear we all know that drives us nuts.

Geno knows shit is broke. He and others tuned out Sullivan. Sullivan has no checks and balances with an assistant willing to debate him on anything. Sully is a control freak which worked in year one and two because they were winning and because of Tocchet willing to stand up to him and Sully respecting Tocchet as a tough bastard, former HC, and having the respect of the players. Tocchet was the shield for the players from Sully and their voice to Sully too. They’ve had no voice the past two seasons and that’s why the cracks are getting bigger and bigger. That’s why Dupuis said what he said. For a minute right after that incident you’ll remember the team came together and went on a winning streak. The holidays happened and took their focus away from coming together as a team over that and went right back to the issues that existed.

Malkin’s play was garbage this year and he knows it but it was for two main reasons.

1) Schultz out for so long meant they had no way to get the puck from the defense efficiently so he was playing crash bandicoot defense with Jack Johnson and Maatta and others getting burned and not getting the puck up to them effectively.

2) Kessel being a pain in the ass and forcing Sully to play him with Malkin because he didn’t want to play on the 3rd line any longer and he wasn’t producing on the 3rd line. Sully knew Kessel and Malkin were a dumpster fire together defensively and he was intent on making it personal with Kessel and Malkin no matter if we lost every game and kept them even if it meant the team suffered. Sully doesn’t want Kessel on the team and he was intent on letting the dumpster fire continue or let Kessel and Malkin prove they could make it work. It went beyond that however with injuries and lack of adjustments. JR took Sully’s side at first and that led to the Hagelin trade. Essentially that just pissed the players off even more because it proved to them without a Tocchet there the issues they had were not heard and the finger pointing went against the players instead of the coaching adjustments or bringing in other players in addition to support.

So if Malkin is frustrated he and others have reason to be. The locker room became toxic for a few reasons. Again, having a Tocchet type there would’ve helped a lot. Some of the players are going to end up on the chopping block for the room toxicity. Unfortunately, there was no Justin Williams/Guerin type presence and Dad is more leader on the ice than the locker room or bench.

Sully and JR agree that personnel moves need to be made which is why I wouldn’t believe shit JR says in the media. It’s all trade and value posturing.

What will be telling is if Mario and ownership have with discussions with JR and if we see the Pens going back to having a voice on the bench as a personality willing to stand up to Sully and be a voice for the players again and also put Sully in check that if shit gets out of sorts again his replacement is standing right next to him.

Like I’ve been saying it’s going to be an interesting draft. Sully isn’t going anywhere right now. I just hope Mario gives his feedback to JR and JR considers that along with what Sully has told him already and we get some stronger personalities as assistants. Mario is at all the home games. He sees the same shit we all see. He’s lived it from Malkin’s eyes and he understands the frustration. At the end of the day, if a fight happens between Sully and either Sid or Malkin, Sully will be gone faster than a puck drop.

 

[Burn]

If Martin leaves for Ott or Buf, who takes his place?

 

[EliteGoaltending]

What you are describing is really difficult to do. Young, good, skilled players are not easy to find. We have only 1, really (Guentzel). We are not in a good position looking forward at all, unless we can outright swindle teams in the Kessel/Hornqvist deals.

I wouldn't sell low on Kessel and/or Hornqvist. Both can be better fits on other teams that can surround them with the support they need and both can boost other's teams power plays in a big way. Also, both can be just what other teams miss, just find a right trading partner.

Someone good will need to be snatched in free agency for sure, as well.

Yeah, as a sofa GM, I just speculating and I can't know how difficult it is, but at the same time I don't expect any fleecing (even from a good GM), just good deals.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

If Martin leaves for Ott or Buf, who takes his place?

Someone here proposed Ulf. That’s a step in the right direction. Recchi belongs behind the scenes and Gonchar is a more of an inexperienced teacher but he’s as quiet as a mouse.

 

[Malkinstheman]

I will be so pissed if they trade Geno. Its not his fault JR decided to absolutely destroy the roster, and then Sully made stupid decisions.

 

[66-30-33]

I am really getting sick of reading this Malkin/Letang shit.