Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building | Countdown to Free Agency (Cap Details + Links in First Post)

[Turin]

One just needs to look at what Hagelin did for Malkin this year. You keep him over a guy who disappears for huge stretches and can hurt you inbetween hot streaks.. without question.

 

[Peat]

One just needs to look at what Hagelin did for Malkin this year. You keep him over a guy who disappears for huge stretches and can hurt you inbetween hot streaks.. without question.

Like a guy who'll score 2 points in 15 play off games, or went 6 in 38 for he beginning of the season? Hagelin is even more streaky than Sheary and at 4m, that hurts us when the streak is cold, even if he is still defensively good.

how can anyone watch Sheary and Rust. and come away with anything but Rust being a whole level above Sheary? Sheary is a 30 point winger who doesn't PK and is horrible in the playoff s defensively. ..

how is this even a conversation? jesus. Rust is so much better than Sheary.

I'd keep Hagelin over Sheary easily aswell.. he got more points and plays D and PKs. Sheary had one fluke run, he is not good.

By watching Sheary the season before too and thinking he's not definitely the player he was last season? That was probably his worst season here and there were definitely times his play wasn't getting rewarded on the score sheet like it should have been. Sheary's true level probably lies somewhere between both extremes.

Not sure the assumption that Rust's at a level he'll definitely maintain is a safe one either.

I think it’s a mistake to give up Sprong when Skinner is only signed for next year....we don’t know what Sprong is yet....Skinner may be the better scorer but he’s not a right shot and he won’t be cheap for the next few years, even if we sign him, as will Sprong

I also don’t think we need another wing who has no jam and plays bad defense...yes, he’s an upgrade on Sheary but he’s costing us more than that....if we could get him for Sheary and a second, or Simon, then fine...but I don’t really think he’s worth that cost for one year unless the plan is also to trade Phil, who’s a similar player, for some other 200-foot forwards...

I think that when the GMs of both teams interested in Skinner are meeting with his agent, and we're talking about giving up a guy like Sprong, we should assume there'll be a contract extension will be involved.

You can quote stats all you want. Sheary has had a pretty ****ty go of it via the eye test the past few seasons especially last season.

I’d put Rust out there with the game on the line in any situation. I wouldn’t do the same for Sheary.

I’d be interested to see what Sheary’s stats are with and without Sid.

Sheary's p/60 have been higher away from Sid both regular seasons. Don't know about play offs.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yohe just came out with an article about JR looking to make a deal and Skinner being his main target. All throughout the article it was assumed Kessel will not be apart of any said deal.

This is really interesting, to be honest. The problem I have with Skinner is that he's adding another guy that doesn't address the Penguins needs, as in a physical puck retriever type of player. They really need a guy like Kunitz more than anything else. Where are you going to fit him on this team? You can't play him with Kessel or Sprong because they're too soft to be playing with Skinner. I'm guessing Sprong is a part of the return for Skinner, but at that point, you're having cap problems with fitting Skinner under the cap.

If Carolina if willing to retain on Skinner for 1 year, Skinner for Sheary and Sprong as a base makes sense and it works with the cap. You'll have all of Kessel, Guentzel and Skinner for a year, and when Guentzel needs a raise after this season, you look to move Kessel at that point. I just don't know if they'd bite on that.

If Hagelin cost the same as Sheary... I'd be extremely tempted to go with Hagelin. And while you "don't get points for preventing goals", I think that's a little short sighted... because while that's true, the more goals you prevent (as a team), the less you need to score - and scoring is typically tighter in the POs.

If Sheary was "on his game" more often, then it would be an easy decision - but as that isn't consistently the case, I think I'd probably go with Hagelin if the AAV was the same or similar.

I don't think that will be the case, that's the thing. And even with that, Sheary on his game is worth extraordinarily more than Hagelin under normal circumstances. You're comparing a 60+ point winger to a 30 point winger with a good defensive game, it's not even a question. If Sheary could hit 45 points in a season, he's worth more than Hagelin IMO.

 

[Peat]

But that's just the thing, I don't think Hagelin's defensive game/forechecking is helping the Penguins win any more and he's producing less. That's where I'm at with this, Hagelin produces even less than Sheary and I don't think the rest of his game matches that production difference under most circumstances.

Then trade them both.

You may persuade me that trading Rust is a good idea. You may persuade me Hags doesn't actually bring me enough.

But you're not going to persuade me Sheary should be here another play-offs.

Your argument is an argument for a winger cull, not for keeping Sheary.

 

[MayorofWBS]

And again, how can you possibly explain Rust and Sheary having equal playoff production, then? This is just stupid at this point, there's no other way to put it. Sheary's not great, but to say crap like this is just pure stupidity.



Try to tell that to any Penguins team from 2010-2015. I genuinely can't believe I'm reading this kind of stuff after the lack of talent on the wings killed 5 years of the primes of Crosby and Malkin.

Because you're basing playoff performance strictly to points and points only! Sheary has no intangibles. If he's not putting points up, he's not doing anything else to help the team in the playoffs. Why would you keep the one dimensional playoff player in Sheary compared to Hagelin or Rust? All three have around the same point production in the playoffs. In terms of playoff goal scoring over the same three year period, its Rust, Hagelin and then Sheary. Jesus Christ, Sheary has less goals than Hagelin! I know of no coach that would sit a 16 goal scorer (Rust) in the playoffs over Hagelin and Sheary. None. Hagelin's no gem either but he also provides the forechecking and puck retrieval we need. Both Hagelin and Rust see big minutes on the PK while Sheary doesn't. Sheary does see time on the second PP while the others don't but I wonder if Sprong will bite into that PP time this year.

This not a ringing endorsement of Hagelin or Rust. I wouldn't blink if both were traded. I don't give a flying **** what he can do in the regular season, Sheary's an empty playoff jersey. He needs to go regards of what happens to Rust/Hagelin.

 

[Riptide]

Try to tell that to any Penguins team from 2010-2015. I genuinely can't believe I'm reading this kind of stuff after the lack of talent on the wings killed 5 years of the primes of Crosby and Malkin.

Meh, our team is very very different then it was from 10-15. Then we had Bennett, Neal and JJ as our "skilled" wingers. Sheary at best is our 3rd most skilled winger. In 10-15 he would have been challenging for the #2 spot.

Additionally, it was a lot more than just a "lack of talent on the wings" that those teams suffered from - it was a serious lack of overall depth. Which again, even without Sheary isn't much of an issue for the current team.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Because you're basing playoff performance strictly to points and points only! Sheary has no intangibles. If he's not putting points up, he's not doing anything else to help the team in the playoffs. Why would you keep the one dimensional playoff player in Sheary compared to Hagelin or Rust? All three have around the same point production in the playoffs. In terms of playoff goal scoring over the same three year period, its Rust, Hagelin and then Sheary.

Look at Hagelin without the HBK run and suddenly it looks a lot different. Hagelin rode a hot line on 1 playoff run with Kessel, but otherwise, he has been crap in the playoffs for the Penguins. Like actual crap, not what people try to argue Sheary has been in the playoffs. Hagelin is just as 1 dimensional as Sheary is in the playoffs, because he has been a massive playoff dud in the last 2 years.

Forechecking and puck retrieval, while very important for offensive production, don't outweigh the production gap between where Sheary and Hagelin are normally at. Seeing how bad offensively Hagelin has been in the playoffs, it makes it even easier.

Meh, our team is very very different then it was from 10-15. Then we had Bennett, Neal and JJ as our "skilled" wingers. Sheary at best is our 3rd most skilled winger. In 10-15 he would have been challenging for the #2 spot.

Additionally, it was a lot more than just a "lack of talent on the wings" that those teams suffered from - it was a serious lack of overall depth. Which again, even without Sheary isn't much of an issue for the current team.

The 2014 Penguins were probably the most "skilled" Penguins team over those 5 or 6 seasons and it wasn't nearly enough. I really don't think you can argue "puck retrieval and physicality mean more than skill" when 5 Penguins teams from 2010-2015 lost due to that.

 

[Turin]

This is really interesting, to be honest. The problem I have with Skinner is that he's adding another guy that doesn't address the Penguins needs, as in a physical puck retriever type of player. They really need a guy like Kunitz more than anything else. Where are you going to fit him on this team? You can't play him with Kessel or Sprong because they're too soft to be playing with Skinner. I'm guessing Sprong is a part of the return for Skinner, but at that point, you're having cap problems with fitting Skinner under the cap.

If Carolina if willing to retain on Skinner for 1 year, Skinner for Sheary and Sprong as a base makes sense and it works with the cap. You'll have all of Kessel, Guentzel and Skinner for a year, and when Guentzel needs a raise after this season, you look to move Kessel at that point. I just don't know if they'd bite on that.



I don't think that will be the case, that's the thing. And even with that, Sheary on his game is worth extraordinarily more than Hagelin under normal circumstances. You're comparing a 60+ point winger to a 30 point winger with a good defensive game, it's not even a question. If Sheary could hit 45 points in a season, he's worth more than Hagelin IMO.

I think Skinner is simply a huge upgrade on Sheary. So you might not be getting exactly what you need (prime Kunitz) but you are improving drastically on what was a real good team, 2nd best in the NHL after January. How it works with the cap is anybodies guess as Skinner makes double Sheary’s money.

 

[Riptide]

Sheary had 17 points in 45 games in the 2 cup runs combined. That's fine production overall, especially when he's playing 3rd line minutes overall and not getting any powerplay production. Yeah, he struggled to produce in the playoffs this year, but so did everyone else.

The big thing I don't get is why people criticize Sheary for his playoff production while simultaneously saying Rust is a clutch playoff performer. <snip> I really don't understand why people criticize Sheary's playoff production, it's no worse than anyone else's production and it's all at ES.

The issue with Sheary specifically, is that when he's struggling to score, frequently there's very little of anything else that he provides. And while that wasn't quite the case this year in the POs, it has been something that we've seen time and time again from him on a regular basis. So you're left trying to balance Sheary's consistency and his production and you're weighing that vs Hagelin's limited offensive game, but what's usually a fairly consistent overall game. Given the differences between the two players defensively... I'd still bet on Hagelin first.

Again, we have the offensive wingers in Guentzel, Kessel, Hornqvist (to some extent) and hopefully Sprong. We can probably afford to lose Sheary without it grossly impacting our offense. Although that's taking a bit of a gamble on Sprong (or Simon) becoming useful every day players.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The issue with Sheary specifically, is that when he's struggling to score, frequently there's very little of anything else that he provides. And while that wasn't quite the case this year in the POs, it has been something that we've seen time and time again from him on a regular basis. So you're left trying to balance Sheary's consistency and his production and you're weighing that vs Hagelin's limited offensive game, but what's usually a fairly consistent overall game. Given the differences between the two players defensively... I'd still bet on Hagelin first.

Again, we have the offensive wingers in Guentzel, Kessel, Hornqvist (to some extent) and hopefully Sprong. We can probably afford to lose Sheary without it grossly impacting our offense. Although that's taking a bit of a gamble on Sprong (or Simon) becoming useful every day players.

But that's just the thing, I don't think Hagelin's defensive game/forechecking is helping the Penguins win any more and he's producing less. That's where I'm at with this, Hagelin produces even less than Sheary and I don't think the rest of his game matches that production difference under most circumstances.

 

[Riptide]

The 2014 Penguins were probably the most "skilled" Penguins team over those 5 or 6 seasons and it wasn't nearly enough. I really don't think you can argue "puck retrieval and physicality mean more than skill" when 5 Penguins teams from 2010-2015 lost due to that.

I hope you mean the 2012/13 team when we loaded up for the POs. Because the 2013/14 team had guys like Glass (67), Gibbons (41), Adams (82), Megna (36), Connor (19), Pyatt (34), Kobasew (33) and Sill (20) all see significant time. And even if you were referring to the 2013 team, which was arguably the only team from 2010-15 that had the depth needed to really push for a cup... we were still shackled with Bylsma and his absolute refusal to make any sort of changes.

And again... this is a very different team then any of those teams - including 2013, so I'm not sure why you're so focused on trying to compare us to the past. Guentzel and Kessel alone more than make up for the lack of skill those teams had.

 

[bigG]

And now the local media is pumping Skinner's tires. Like clockwork.

 

[Turin]

Hagelin was f***ing amazing before he got his face broken. Give me the guy who’s game improves, not falls off a cliff, as the season goes on.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think Skinner is simply a huge upgrade on Sheary. So you might not be getting exactly what you need (prime Kunitz) but you are improving drastically on what was a real good team, 2nd best in the NHL after January. How it works with the cap is anybodies guess as Skinner makes double Sheary’s money.

I think the salary retention factor is the biggest factor here. Is Carolina willing to retain salary on Skinner? That's the big question here. This:

Guentzel-Crosby-Hornqvist
Skinner-Malkin-Rust
Hagelin-Brassard-Kessel

That's an insane top-9 group. If you can afford that with the cap, you try to get that as much as you can. The problem I see with Skinner is that it's likely costing Sprong to get him here, and you'll have to trade Kessel to afford him long term. Suddenly, you lose both of your right handed PP options. I don't think that's a big problem, but I do think people here think that's an issue.

 

[cheesedanish87]

With the Pens being interested in Skinner and JR talking to Vegas i wonder if we can have a deja vu of the Brass trade.

Maybe JR will give Vegas assets to retain Salary on Skinner, Vegas has a bunch of cap space.

 

[WayneSid9987]

So we're assuming it'd be Sheary+Sprong for a Skinner with a a new contract?
How would everyone feel about that?

 

[PensandCaps]

I mean, that's just ridiculous. I know it's the popular thing to hate on Sheary here, but he's a legit top-9 winger that produces well. Just because he didn't hit a 70 point pace this season like he did in 2016-2017 doesn't mean he sucks.



I think the debate for Sheary vs Rust come down to Sheary's offense vs Rust's offense and forechecking. It's the same thing with Hagelin, what point differential do you need to go with Sheary over those guys? I think the debate is more so Sheary vs Hagelin than Sheary vs Rust, because Sheary needs to be over 50 points to have significantly more points than Rust. But Hagelin? He's not getting much more than 30 points a season at this point. How many points does Sheary need to be worth it to keep over Hagelin if Hagelin is at 30 points with a strong forechecking presence? I think I'm in the comfortable yes range by 40 points. And if we're talking about Hagelin and Sheary in the same role, is Hagelin even going to hit 30 points?

If you run with the thought of "defense for wingers doesn't matter", I think I trade Hagelin and give ZAR a top-6 role. People will question why I think ZAR should be in the top-6, I think it's pretty simple. He's useless as a 4th liner because he can't create his own offense and isn't fast. If you put him with Sheahan, he'll be nothing more than a Kuhnhackl clone for you. He should be put in a role where he can produce and use his talents appropriately. I don't think it's a mistake that he produced really well with Crosby last year, that's the kind of role he should be used in. He's not a bottom-6 grinder, he's a Hornqvist type of complementary offensive winger. I think their lineup would be:

Guentzel-Crosby-Hornqvist
ZAR-Malkin-Kessel
Rust-Brassard-Sprong
Sheary-Sheahan-Physical and fast RWer

If it would work with the cap, I'd try to make the 4th line Hagelin-Sheahan-Sheary, but I don't think that works with the cap unless you don't address your defense at all.

2 goals in his last 35 playoff games and is awful defensively.

Rust is on a whole nother 10 levels. Sheary is an awful playoff player, while Rust is a consistently good player in the playoffs. one is awful when it matters, the other is very good when it matters. keeping Sheary over Rust is like keeping Sheahan over Crosby.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I hope you mean the 2012/13 team when we loaded up for the POs. Because the 2013/14 team had guys like Glass (67), Gibbons (41), Adams (82), Megna (36), Connor (19), Pyatt (34), Kobasew (33) and Sill (20) all see significant time. And even if you were referring to the 2013 team, which was arguably the only team from 2010-15 that had the depth needed to really push for a cup... we were still shackled with Bylsma and his absolute refusal to make any sort of changes.

And again... this is a very different team then any of those teams - including 2013, so I'm not sure why you're so focused on trying to compare us to the past. Guentzel and Kessel alone more than make up for the lack of skill those teams had.

You don't win cups based on top end talent, you win based on depth. It seems like we both agree on that. Guentzel and Kessel don't really matter here much, because neither are depth players. You flat out won't win in the playoffs if your depth is devoid of skilled players, that's just the way it is. Sure, the Penguins top-6 is much more skilled than it was during those years, but you need bottom-6 skill to win in the playoffs. In the bottom-6 last year, you had guys like ZAR and Kuhnhackl playing regular minutes in the playoffs. That's fine if you have other big time producers in your bottom-6, or an insane top-6 group with a hot goalie, but it's normally not okay.

2 goals in his last 35 playoff games and is awful defensively.

Rust is on a whole nother 10 levels. Sheary is an awful playoff player, while Rust is a consistently good player in the playoffs. one is awful when it matters, the other is very good when it matters. keeping Sheary over Rust is like keeping Sheahan over Crosby.

A. Why does it matter if he's awful defensively?
B. "Rust is on a whole nother 10 levels", that's a funny way to say "their production has basically been equal for 3 playoff runs"

Seriously, do people just ignore facts on here or something? Sheary and Rust are separated by 2 playoff points total in the last 3 playoffs, with Rust playing in 1 more game.

So we're assuming it'd be Sheary+Sprong for a Skinner with a a new contract?
How would everyone feel about that?

I care about how much Carolina is retaining on Skinner more than anything, to be honest.

 

[cheesedanish87]

So we're assuming it'd be Sheary+Sprong for a Skinner with a a new contract?
How would everyone feel about that?

Why would you assume that?

I'd be very surprised if it was Sprong.

Jarry fills a need for them.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Why would you assume that?

I'd be very surprised if it was Sprong.

Jarry fills a need for them.

If the Penguins could pull off Skinner without including Sprong, I'd be shocked.

 

[Turin]

Why would you assume that?

I'd be very surprised if it was Sprong.

Jarry fills a need for them.

Jarry fills a need for Pittsburgh too, DeSmith is awful. Granted, Pens should probably just get a veteran backup in FA.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Why would you assume that?

I'd be very surprised if it was Sprong.

Jarry fills a need for them.

Well if Phil's not used, i don't see a 1st+Jarry+CapDump getting it done.

 

[cheesedanish87]

If the Penguins could pull off Skinner without including Sprong, I'd be shocked.

Sprong isn't that great of a prospect.

We treat him like he is because hes one of the very few prospects the Pens have.

I don't think he has anywhere near the value this board thinks he does.

 

[Ugene Magic]

I pick HFBOARDS......

overall....

 

[PensandCaps]

how can anyone watch Sheary and Rust. and come away with anything but Rust being a whole level above Sheary? Sheary is a 30 point winger who doesn't PK and is horrible in the playoff s defensively. ..

how is this even a conversation? jesus. Rust is so much better than Sheary.

I'd keep Hagelin over Sheary easily aswell.. he got more points and plays D and PKs. Sheary had one fluke run, he is not good.

 

[71GenoMalkin]

You can quote stats all you want. Sheary has had a pretty ****ty go of it via the eye test the past few seasons especially last season.

I’d put Rust out there with the game on the line in any situation. I wouldn’t do the same for Sheary.

I’d be interested to see what Sheary’s stats are with and without Sid.

Very valid point. Game 6 Stanley Cup Final vs. Nashville, up a goal with under a minute to play. The forwards on the ice are 17, 87, 62. Hags' speed sealed the deal with the empty netter. I would take Rust & Hagelin 10 times out 10 over Sheary.

 

[Turin]

Sprong isn't that great of a prospect.

We treat him like he is because hes one of the very few prospects the Pens have.

I don't think he has anywhere near the value this board thinks he does.

I like Sprong a lot, but you’re not wrong.

 

[WayneSid9987]

One thing i will say is if JR was fine sending ShearyorRust+Simon out for Domi, i can easily see him sending out those pieces + for Skinner.

1st+Sheary+Jarry for Skinner at 1.725 retained.
Rust to BUF for McCabe(Just an example of getting a playable/cheaper D for Rust).
Waive Hunwick:

Jake-Sid-Horny
Skinner-G-Sprong(925k)
Hags-Brass-Phil
ZAR-Sheahan(2.5M)-Angello
Kuhnackl(750k)

Dumo-Tang
Maatta-Schultz
McCabe-BigRig(1.8M)
Ruh

Murr
DeSmith

Gives me $898,750k in space.

If thats sorta what JR might be working towards, i can feel it atleast, now that i've put down a hypothetical.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Sprong isn't that great of a prospect.

We treat him like he is because hes one of the very few prospects the Pens have.

I don't think he has anywhere near the value this board thinks he does.

That's why I think he'd be required to get someone like Skinner. He's the only B prospect (guys like Kapanen and such) that the Penguins have. It's not that he doesn't have insane value, it's just that the Penguins don't have much in value outside of him.

how can anyone watch Sheary and Rust. and come away with anything but Rust being a whole level above Sheary? Sheary is a 30 point winger who doesn't PK and is horrible in the playoff s defensively. ..

how is this even a conversation? jesus. Rust is so much better than Sheary.

I'd keep Hagelin over Sheary easily aswell.. he got more points and plays D and PKs. Sheary had one fluke run, he is not good.

And like I said, being good defensively for wingers doesn't count for anything. You don't win games by preventing goals.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Hagelin and Rust are a part of Sullivan's Penguins DNA.

Sheary, to a lesser degree, is as well, I mean, the problem here is that we think we need to lose any of the three to some how get better, we really don't. I am honestly also ok with JR just going after the Defense for what he needs to fix and a reliable veteran back-up.

The thing about Hagelin and Rust is that for one, they both are fantastic defensive players and among the fastest skaters in the league, so they're game breakers in a different sense than say Sheary is when he is on his game.

Hagelin is UFA after this year. Rust needs a new contract, Sheary has 2yrs left. Out of the 3, I would honestly have a hard time wanting to keep Sheary over the other two because you want players on this team to be multifaceted.

If you're going to make room for Sprong, that's two wingers (Kessel and Sprong) that are not that strong defensively, so you need stronger defensive wingers to off set that.

 

[PensandCaps]

how about Sprong for Fabbro from NSH? Swap of Prospects

 

[Honour Over Glory]

One thing i will say is if JR was fine sending ShearyorRust+Simon out for Domi, i can easily see him sending out those pieces + for Skinner.

1st+Sheary+Jarry for Skinner at 1.725 retained.
Rust to BUF for McCabe(Just an example of getting a playable/cheaper D for Rust).
Waive Hunwick:

Jake-Sid-Horny
Skinner-G-Sprong(925k)
Hags-Brass-Phil
ZAR-Sheahan(2.5M)-Angello
Kuhnackl(750k)

Dumo-Tang
Maatta-Schultz
McCabe-BigRig(1.8M)
Ruh

Murr
DeSmith

Gives me $898,750k in space.

If thats sorta what JR might be working towards, i can feel it atleast, now that i've put down a hypothetical.

And that's cool that he'd be willing to.

If Skinner is JR's target, it sure as shit should not be for Rust, you want to package Jarry + Sheary, cool, but man that's a risk and a half too because now you gave up 2 stud goalie prospects and what not for 1 full year out of 2 players.

Sheary isn't a physical player, one of his biggest problems is that when the game gets tougher like in the playoffs, he disappears completely, Skinner is actually even less physical and he's the same size as Crosby (5'11" 200lbs, if you can believe that). So to have 2 weak ass players physically on the left side or even on a line together or on the roster is a f***ing night mare. Do.Not.Want.

Skinner in this case, wins because he is a better and more consistent offensive player, for sure, but man...hell no with moving Rust in a package for him.

Also if that's the package, I would want Trevor Van Riemsdyk and they better be taking Hunwick off our hands. At least TVR is a solid enough 3rd pairing RD.

Like I said...

I'd do:

Jarry
Sheary
Hunwick
Blueger

For

Skinner
Van Riemsdyk
If Carolina retained 50% on Skinner, I would throw in a 2nd rounder in 2020 (since our 2019 one is gone I think).