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WayneSid9987

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Nov 24, 2009
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Just taking a gander at Frank Seravalli's latest Trade Bait board for the D only:

Parayako
Muzzin
Pesce
Faulk
Martinez
Bouwmeester
Ceci
Del Zotto
Petrovic
Manning
 

Honour Over Glory

Fire Sully
Jan 30, 2012
77,316
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I think maybe Brassard is just too subtle.

Yeah he's producing at career pace, it just never seems to positively impact a game.

He's not flashy at all. Nothing offensively or defensively stands out. Which is probably why people like me are all well Sheahan can be just as invisible so what's the point of Brass?

Even though overall, that's probably wrong.
I'm curious what his usage was with the Rangers, Jackets, and Senators.

As well as the type of wingers he played best with.
 

Gurglesons

Registered User
Dec 18, 2009
92,202
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San Diego, CA
last-train-tocool.blogspot.com
Just taking a gander at Frank Seravalli's latest Trade Bait board for the D only:

Parayako
Muzzin
Pesce
Faulk
Martinez
Bouwmeester
Ceci
Del Zotto
Petrovic
Manning

I feel like JR is going to pull in Bouwmeester.

Out of that list Martinez is what we need the most, but I could see Del Zotto being pretty decent here.

Pesce or Parayako are the dream.
 
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Honour Over Glory

Fire Sully
Jan 30, 2012
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So in one of those years on the Sens he was with Dzingel (I wish we had him, and Stone.

Then Smith-Brassard-Stone.

That left side, he really thrives with a guy that plays a physical game and is solid along the boards with decent wheels. Which is what Smith and Dzingel are, Stone is a shooter, a very good shooter.

The value village version of those two on the Pens, are Aston-Reese and Rust.
 

EightyOne

My posts are jokes. And hockey is just a game.
Nov 23, 2016
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JR will remove all doubt of his foolishness if he brings in Bouwmeester.
 

Honour Over Glory

Fire Sully
Jan 30, 2012
77,316
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Oh and Brass also did well with the likes of Burrows and Stalberg, so its weird, he also does need time to get into a groove, I was reading about how it took him 32 games or so one of the years to get to 6 goals, so I think more time he plays and stays healthy and gets stable wingers, the more he will produce and be that 3C we are hoping he is...

JR will remove all doubt of his foolishness if he brings in Bouwmeester.

I am so confused with this sudden want for Jay-Bo.

I mention his ass like a month or two ago and people roasted me about it, now he's back in the good graces.

vS8I098.gif
 
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Honour Over Glory

Fire Sully
Jan 30, 2012
77,316
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I'd rather JR went after Tanev and some how sold the Canucks on Maatta + 3rd for him or something.

If he can do that, I'll kiss that old liver spotted fat man on the mouth.
 

Sidney the Kidney

One last time
Jun 29, 2009
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I'd rather JR went after Tanev and some how sold the Canucks on Maatta + 3rd for him or something.

If he can do that, I'll kiss that old liver spotted fat man on the mouth.

I'd rather get Edler. I think his contribution in both ends is more needed on this team since we seem to lack guys who can do a damn thing with the puck if Letang is out.
 
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Honour Over Glory

Fire Sully
Jan 30, 2012
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I'd rather get Edler. I think his contribution in both ends is more needed on this team since we seem to lack guys who can do a damn thing with the puck if Letang is out.
I think Tanev is exactly the right guy for a person like Oleksiak or even Riikola. He's steady as hell, is physical, and a solid PK defenseman as well as being able to pass the puck adequately.

Oh and he's not slow as shit.

It would also let JJ loose offensively and the dumb is more tolerable with Tanev as his partner. It's not that we don't have PMD's, we do, but the moment the team lets them do their thing in that regard, it's like a montage with Benny Hill music levels of bad.

When we get our injured guys back...

Dumoulin, Letang
Pettersson/Oleksiak/Pettersson, Schultz
Oleksiak/Riikola/Johnson, Tanev
 
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Honour Over Glory

Fire Sully
Jan 30, 2012
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The issue with another PMD is that Letang takes the most minutes and Schultz was a 50pt guy that because his PP minutes decreased, started to work on his defensive game more and while he got a lot better in that regard, if we can get a bunch of guys chipping in at 25-30pts with Letang and his 50-60+ and Schultz hopefully at least hitting 40....we're in a good spot. Then you just gotta hope we have a guy that can play a pure shutdown role, Tanev can.

I mean, sure, so can Jay Bouwmeester and I'd be cool losing one of JJ or Maatta and have some cap to work with next summer.
 

WayneSid9987

Registered User
Nov 24, 2009
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I doubt JR would have interest in Bouwmeester unless he's in a playoff spot and a top player is indefinitely out like '17.
JR seems to hate rentals unless they're absolutely necessary and prefers guys with term/knows they'll be here to either help or be a trade piece.
 

Riptide

Registered User
Dec 29, 2011
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This notion that Brassard can't play D is strange to me. Is it purely because his FO% is lower?

I think it's more a case of him being Malkin like defensively. When he wants to be, Brassard can be good. Not great, but certainly no where close to a liability. The issue is he doesn't seem to actually want to be all that good right now. Not the end of the world... because he's still not really a liability defensively, and he should be pretty good offensively (even if you just consider 3c standards for offense). Unfortunately he's barely doing that either, with at almost half his production coming as a winger to Crosby.

Basically I see it as this:
- He's not great defensively. Call it average or slightly below average depending on how much he's caring
- He doesn't go to the battle area's all that much
- He's not producing all that well as a 3c with only 4/5pts this season coming when playing center
- He's not tilting the ice to help provide that 3 line attack
- FO's aren't great, although that doesn't really bother me all that much
- He's not PKing. Hell when we need another C on the PK, it's Crosby we're sending out there

I look at all that... and I don't see someone that does all that much for us. Again, that doesn't mean dump his ass... but I'd be trying to move him to find someone else who's a better fit for us. Or if he can transition to LW, and we find someone else for 3c (internally or via trade), then try something like this:

Guentzel - Crosby - Simon/Rust
Brassard - Malkin - Hornqvist
Pearson - Sheahan/X - Kessel
Grant/Cullen - Sheahan/X - Rust/Simon

But based on what we've seen so far... I don't think our best lineup going into the POs includes Brassard as our 3c. Mind you we also need to make some changes to the blueline... so that could be tricky and we might just have to suck it up. But it wouldn't surprise me if we keep seeing Brassard's TOI decrease and Sheahan's increasing.

My point is Brassard is producing near Bonino’s peak production while he was here in the first third of the season when he is “terrible.” We are winning 75% of the games he plays in when we can ice our full center depth.

I don’t know honesty what people were expecting from Brassard. Did you think he’d put up 50 pts?

I expected ~40 points and for him to do a lot more then he's been doing to tilt the ice while anchoring the 3rd line. But he hasn't been on a 40pt pace (or anything close to that) while playing 3c, and he hasn't been tilting the ice in any way, shape or form.
 
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Peat

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I don’t really see how anyone can say that. I’d like to see the Sheahan we saw for 75% of this season with ZAR or ghost Rust the majority of his shifts not get owned.

Also, what spells are these?

He had 8 in 13 before getting injured going into the playoffs.

Before going down with injury he had 5 points in 9 games.

*shrugs* That's what the numbers say and going from what eye test I've applied, I don't see much to disagree with them. And Sheahan has spent more time with Rust in these past 13 games, and having Garrett Wilson to play with rather than ZAR isn't a huge improvement.

And, well, the first half of that initial spell had no production, and so did the second spell until the Calgary game. We know Brassard can bring it here, but it has been very intermittent (that spell leading up to his injury pre-play offs is his one consistent stretch of production) and tied to the big guns. The idea that he's going to keep playing like the last 13 if we use him as a 3C who doesn't see Kessel is far from implausible. It has more proof than Brassard being an above average 3C without Kessel or Crosby.

Since you've got me started, lets look at the bigger picture. Since the start of last season, Brass has had worst possession % and GF% numbers than Sheahan without Kessel and Crosby. His zone start numbers are marginally better too. The results say that if you want a 3C to pull a fairly muck line through here, Sheahan is better than Brassard, although not by a huge degree. Brassard's been markedly better with Kessel at GF%, but the possession numbers are pretty even, with Brassard leading most and Sheahan leading some.

Basically, ever since he's got here, Brassard has failed to produce significantly better results on the ice than Sheahan as a bottom 6 centre, despite Sheahan spending a bunch of time with worse linemates as 4C. He's produced more as an individual but the team hasn't really seen much for it.
 

Riptide

Registered User
Dec 29, 2011
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Yukon
I see no reason to move Brassard, as it seems likely the return will not benefit us.

You’re either going to do a one-for-one and get another UFA back but we’d need that player to also be a centerman. Who trades a rental C for another rental C?

Or you trade him for futures but you will not recoup what we gave up for him and we are not in a position to be deadline sellers.

Just keep him and try to make it work.
Let him walk and sign someone in July that’s more cut-out to be a 3C, like Filppula.

That's the issue. While I agree trading him (which means we need to bring back some sort of center), isn't an easy solution as it would take multiple moves (Brassard out, assets in, assets out, new C in), or us being able to trade him to a team that thinks they can re-sign him and is willing to give us a lower tier'd center who's signed in return (aka Montreal and Danault - I wouldn't hold my breath on that, but you never know).

As for just hoping it works out... I'm really starting to lose faith that it will. Brassard has played enough games now that the sample size we're talking about isn't exactly a small one. I mean even if you ignore when we were playing like utter crap, and just look at the more recent games... he's still been largely invisible.

When Brassard is played consistently with Jake Guentzel and Phil Kessel let me know.

Here's the thing.
Brassard has played 327 minutes at ES this season. 106 - so pretty much a full 1/3rd of them have been with Guentzel. And Guentzel has performed MUCH better in pretty much every stat when not paired with Brassard.
Brassard has played 50 minutes with Kessel. And the numbers are atrocious for them, even with heavy OZ starts.

Together the trio did well, but there's such a limited sample size (less than 4 minutes) it's pretty meaningless.

If Brass goes it would have to involve a better or comparable player.

In all fairness finding a "comparable player" to how he's currently playing wouldn't be all that hard. But I don't think ANYONE here would like ANY of the names that would get listed. :laugh:
 

Honour Over Glory

Fire Sully
Jan 30, 2012
77,316
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I think it's more a case of him being Malkin like defensively. When he wants to be, Brassard can be good. Not great, but certainly no where close to a liability. The issue is he doesn't seem to actually want to be all that good right now. Not the end of the world... because he's still not really a liability defensively, and he should be pretty good offensively (even if you just consider 3c standards for offense). Unfortunately he's barely doing that either, with at almost half his production coming as a winger to Crosby.

Basically I see it as this:
- He's not great defensively. Call it average or slightly below average depending on how much he's caring
- He doesn't go to the battle area's all that much
- He's not producing all that well as a 3c with only 4/5pts this season coming when playing center
- He's not tilting the ice to help provide that 3 line attack
- FO's aren't great, although that doesn't really bother me all that much
- He's not PKing. Hell when we need another C on the PK, it's Crosby we're sending out there

I look at all that... and I don't see someone that does all that much for us. Again, that doesn't mean dump his ass... but I'd be trying to move him to find someone else who's a better fit for us. Or if he can transition to LW, and we find someone else for 3c (internally or via trade), then try something like this:

Guentzel - Crosby - Simon/Rust
Brassard - Malkin - Hornqvist
Pearson - Sheahan/X - Kessel
Grant/Cullen - Sheahan/X - Rust/Simon

But based on what we've seen so far... I don't think our best lineup going into the POs includes Brassard as our 3c. Mind you we also need to make some changes to the blueline... so that could be tricky and we might just have to suck it up. But it wouldn't surprise me if we keep seeing Brassard's TOI decrease and Sheahan's increasing.



I expected ~40 points and for him to do a lot more then he's been doing to tilt the ice while anchoring the 3rd line. But he hasn't been on a 40pt pace (or anything close to that) while playing 3c, and he hasn't been tilting the ice in any way, shape or form.

Well...riddle me this.

  1. Was he ever used in the way he's being used here with the Jackets, Rangers, or Senators?
  2. How often are his line mates changed on the 3rd line?
  3. What is the frequency in which he gets moved to wing and back to center, enough to warrant the fact that the constant winger rotation and moving from W/C and back to C maybe affects it?
  4. Is Brassard a bad fit because the team envisioned a player that was never meant for that role, to some how magically excel in that role?
The Rangers before the cap era is always my best example of - Just because you can, doesn't mean you should, fit is far more important than the idea of something that "could" work. There is so much information out there now with technology and game footage, Brassard's usage vs his line mates and who he excels with, the Pens haven't exactly put him in a position to succeed (I try not to laugh, I guess it's a youth and veteran issue).

Brassard has his fault in this too, but a lot of it also is that he's not a player you use in a role like that, a 3rd line role where he has more defensive responsibilities and what not. Brassard also has slow starts, but he's usually kept with wingers to work through it.

In Ottawa he's had odd linemate usage but he's had guys like Stalberg & Burrows (Produced less his 1st year with those 2), but then had Dzingel/Smith and Stone.

Here?

He has anyone from - Sheahan, Rust, Aston-Reese, Pearson, Simon, and Kessel.

Who the f*** knows.

But I absolutely loathe the notion that players should be ready at the drop of a hat, to play with anyone, yet we have a different feeling when it comes to Crosby or Malkin, but mostly Crosby and the "never separate Guentzel and Crosby!!"

Players will admit, when they get a chance to play with wingers more often, the chemistry starts to build, for some it's like lightning in a bottle (HBK) but then there's things that slowly build too. We seem to never get that chance. If you look around the league and you can with any and all games literally at your finger tips, as well as info...I swear, this team juggles the lines far more than any other team. We can list off units that other teams employ, but our own teams lines are a f***ing mystery outside of joke pairings we hate and discuss to death.

The constant shifting of wingers is now showing its strain on Malkin and his line-up and production even strength (what's Kessel's production ES lately?).

I hate Sutter, but there was this time someone asked him about his wingers after a game or before one and he was talking about how it's tough to really get into a groove when you don't know who you're playing with half the time, so you don't pick up on their habits. I believe that and I hate that this team does that. Sully panics and panics hard when a line doesn't produce for like 3 shifts, let them play through it. Pretend they're all ZAR's, maybe then he'll keep them there and let them play through it.
 
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Peat

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Jun 14, 2016
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My point is Brassard is producing near Bonino’s peak production while he was here in the first third of the season when he is “terrible.” We are winning 75% of the games he plays in when we can ice our full center depth.

I don’t know honesty what people were expecting from Brassard. Did you think he’d put up 50 pts?

I was expecting him to have notably better on ice results than Sheahan.
 
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Riptide

Registered User
Dec 29, 2011
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Yukon
Just taking a gander at Frank Seravalli's latest Trade Bait board for the D only:

Parayako
Muzzin
Pesce
Faulk
Martinez
Bouwmeester
Ceci
Del Zotto
Petrovic
Manning

All depends on who's going out to make space.

I think Parayko, Muzzin, Pesce, Faulk, Martinez and to a lesser extent Del Zotto would be good/great pickup's. That said, Parayko is a pipe dream and Pesce and Faulk likely wouldn't be far behind. I think if we're moving Oleksiak, then Petrovic would be a decent pickup, if only as a way to shed salary going forward. Same with Del Zotto.

If we're moving Maatta, then I'd want one of the better options from that list, and someone that would be around at least next season, if not the following one. But then I think a lot higher of Maatta then most here.

You said @66-30-33 's favorite trade target - Petrovic.

Honestly, the only reason I'd want him would be as a way to dump Oleksiak's contract. I think he'd have more or less the same limitations Oleksiak does (although more of a DFD and less adventurous offensively, but still not a great DFD), and it would make our pairings rough. But then you let him walk in the summer and forget about it - unless you move JJ, then you can think of keeping him.

Dumoulin - Letang
XXXXX - Schultz
XXXXX - Petrovic
XXXXX

Maatta, Pettersson and Riikola can fight for those 3 spots.

I'd rather get Edler. I think his contribution in both ends is more needed on this team since we seem to lack guys who can do a damn thing with the puck if Letang is out.

Not for Maatta. I know most don't value him all that much around here, but he's worth a lot more than a pending UFA. But if we could do that for Oleksiak+, then sure by all means.
 

Empoleon8771

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Aug 25, 2015
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I was expecting him to have notably better on ice results than Sheahan.

That's the thing that gets me here, it's why I'm so confused for why there are any people defending Brassard. Brassard in Pittsburgh has played with better linemates (larger percentage of ice time with Crosby, Malkin or Kessel) in a better offensive role, yet he's marginally outproducing what Sheahan was able to do as the 3C last year. Not only that, but he brings nothing of the defensive game that Sheahan brings. I just have no clue how anyone can be satisfied with the performance he has put up in the 3C spot, and that's not even touching on what they gave up for each of them.
 
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Honour Over Glory

Fire Sully
Jan 30, 2012
77,316
42,447
I like Oleksiak, I think a lot of his issues are that he's moved from LD to RD, back and forth, and he's with the wrong D partner. He's a guy that would thrive with a defensive first kind of guy. I would rather see him with Pettersson than Johnson or Maatta.

But if people want Petrovic, cool, I hope it happens. He's elite at blocking punches with his face.
 

Honour Over Glory

Fire Sully
Jan 30, 2012
77,316
42,447
That's the thing that gets me here, it's why I'm so confused for why there are any people defending Brassard. Brassard in Pittsburgh has played with better linemates (larger percentage of ice time with Crosby, Malkin or Kessel) in a better offensive role, yet he's marginally outproducing what Sheahan was able to do as the 3C last year. Not only that, but he brings nothing of the defensive game that Sheahan brings. I just have no clue how anyone can be satisfied with the performance he has put up in the 3C spot, and that's not even touching on what they gave up for each of them.

Baffles me too.

I was 100% ok with Sheahan as our 3C last year, I was quite vocal about not wanting a 3C trade AT ALL and was 100% for a rental winger for the bottom 6 that would add some depth scoring. So I don't really have a dog in this fight with wanting Brass or moving Brass. If he stays, whatever, if he goes, cool...but man what the Pens gave up for him, if Sullivan patched shit up with Cole, we wouldn't f***ing have Johnson.

So Sully's stupid caused Rutherford to out stupid him and voila.
 
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Riptide

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Dec 29, 2011
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Yukon
I hate Sutter, but there was this time someone asked him about his wingers after a game or before one and he was talking about how it's tough to really get into a groove when you don't know who you're playing with half the time, so you don't pick up on their habits. I believe that and I hate that this team does that. Sully panics and panics hard when a line doesn't produce for like 3 shifts, let them play through it. Pretend they're all ZAR's, maybe then he'll keep them there and let them play through it.

How many games does he need with the same guys before we say that that isn't working? Because at a certain point, even that starts to stop being an excuse. Bottom line is that he's had stable linemates for a couple games here and there, but after the line did sweat f*** all for a few games, things got changed.

As for his role and fit... this was one of the reasons I didn't want Brassard last spring, but wanted us to go after a rental in Pleks (or someone like that) and just role with Sheahan/Pleks as our 3/4Cs.

Then we got him after Rutherford decided to go full overkill. Fine, not the end of the world. But even last spring before he get hurt, the fit with Kessel was awkward at best. This year it's just been bad vs awkward, and I put a lot of that blame on Brassard himself and the game he's currently playing.
 
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