Salary Cap: Salary Cap 2015: Olli Maatta to start season in AHL due to severe case of Gullibility

[robopigeon]

Makes sense; sucks he's on break. I was more worried the break was Pens related, not poster related. Carry on.

 

[DegenX]

Well if we're including the cap, we're including assets going their way. So Malkin is gone.

We could go back and forth on this one all day

How long are you willing to take a wait and see approach? I'm all for playing the kids, but let's be honest, it's going to take more than just this season. And if you're so sure that Scuderi would be playing if Doughty was on the team, what makes you think that he won't finish out his contract here?

You say we should be in 'win soon' mode rather than 'win now'. Just how many seasons is 'soon'? We have what, another four seasons before Sid and Geno start declining? How many more of them are we going to waste?

I get we have to plan for the future. I agree our asset management has been poor. But even if we let out D 'grow', Scuderi, Kunitz and Duper are all still signed through the season after this one. So, the points you keep circling around to won't have changed.

 

[Ogrezilla]

We could go back and forth on this one all day

How long are you willing to take a wait and see approach? I'm all for playing the kids, but let's be honest, it's going to take more than just this season. And if you're so sure that Scuderi would be playing if Doughty was on the team, what makes you think that he won't finish out his contract here?

You say we should be in 'win soon' mode rather than 'win now'. Just how many seasons is 'soon'? We have what, another four seasons before Sid and Geno start declining? How many more of them are we going to waste?

I get we have to plan for the future. I agree our asset management has been poor. But even if we let out D 'grow', Scuderi, Kunitz and Duper are all still signed through the season after this one. So, the points you keep circling around to won't have changed.

the full length of this season. And I've said we should move those guys out. I'm not saying do nothing right now, just don't do anything that won't help us going forward. We've got people talking about trading Pouliot or Hornqvist to fix the D. It just doesn't make any damn sense.

 

[plaidchuck]

the full length of this season.

And when kunitz lj and scuderi are back next season sucking ass for over 15 min a night?

 

[Saints11]

Don't believe Fehr has played LW, Bonino has for the Ducks. So if one of them are moving to LW, I'd rather it be Bonino. He could also help out with face offs if he is on Geno's line.

 

[Ogrezilla]

And when kunitz lj and scuderi are back next season sucking ass for over 15 min a night?

then management has failed.

But why trade valuable assets to fill a spot Sprong might be able to fill? Why trade valuable assets to fill a spot Maatta or Dumoulin should be able to fill if they aren't babysitting Scuds and Lovejoy? Try these options first. If we still need to fix something, then fix it. But try what we have first. If we can get something from Kunitz, take it and run. But don't trade someone like Hornqvist or Sundqvist or Pouliot or Murray.

 

[DegenX]

the full length of this season. And I've said we should move those guys out. I'm not saying do nothing right now, just don't do anything that won't help us going forward. We've got people talking about trading Pouliot or Hornqvist to fix the D. It just doesn't make any damn sense.

I'm the only one who's suggested trading Hornqvist if Sprong works with Sid. And that somehow got turned into a Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis reunion by some posters (not you) who seem to have a reading comprehension problem.

Part of this team's problem can be corrected by trading away less effective players and letting their spots be filled internally. The lack of a blueliner capable of anchoring the second pairing without weakening the top pairing isn't one of them. I don't disagree that we have a couple of guys who may grow into that role, but it's going to take more than just this season for that to happen.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I'm the only one who's suggested trading Hornqvist if Sprong works with Sid. And that somehow got turned into a Kunitz-Crosby-Dupuis reunion by some posters (not you) who seem to have a reading comprehension problem.

Part of this team's problem can be corrected by trading away less effective players and letting their spots be filled internally. The lack of a blueliner capable of anchoring the second pairing without weakening the top pairing isn't one of them. I don't disagree that we have a couple of guys who may grow into that role, but it's going to take more than just this season for that to happen.

I disagree. Dumoulin is doing it right now while playing with Ben Lovejoy.

And I just don't even know what to say to really capture how much I disagree with trading Hornqvist.

 

[DegenX]

I disagree. Dumoulin is doing it right now while playing with Ben Lovejoy.

And I just don't even know what to say to really capture how much I disagree with even considering trading Hornqvist.

It would seem we are at an impasse then. Let's just put this debate aside for now, shall we? And thank you for an actual discussion, instead of rude, one word replies that add nothing to the conversation.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Stop calling this a fact. Dumoulin looks like he can handle being a #3. And Cole looks like he can be a #4 imo.

Okay, fair enough. The "commonsense opinion based on watching the guys play" is that we desperately need a 2nd pairing defenseman, ideally a #2/3 with good skating and a good first pass.

Cole isn't a top-4 guy on a Cup caliber team, imo. He's not really any good at any aspect of the game. He's not a hitter, he's not good offensively, he's not good defensively, he's not a PP specialist, he's not great positionally or with his stick. He's a decent, if not good bottom pairing guy, but anything above that is way too many minutes and too much responsibility for a guy who essentially brings nothing to the table.

While I like Dumoulin's game thus far (he's probably been our best defensemen, all things considered, not that it's a huge accomplishment), I'd like to see more than an solid game from him over the course of 15-20 games before I chisel his name into the top-4 long term.

 

[malkshake]

How about, instead of silly things like putting Geno with Sid while we have the deepest team we've ever had in the past 15 years, let's do smart things. Like putting Sprong and Bennett into the top-6. Like trying Hornqvist at LW, Sprong as well.

Sprong - Crosby - Hornqvist
Bennett - Malkin - Kessel
Perron - Bonino - Plotnikov
Kunitz - Cullen - Dupuis

or

Hornqvist - Crosby - Sprong
Bennett - Malkin - Kessel
Perron - Bonino - Plotnikov
Kunitz - Cullen - Dupuis

or

Hornqvist - Crosby - Bennett
Sprong - Malkin - Kessel
Perron - Bonino - Plotnikov
Kunitz - Cullen - Dupuis

.


We have the luxury of being deep enough to try Sid with Geno full time now. I mean it really can't get any worse offensively for us.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Okay, fair enough. The "commonsense opinion based on watching the guys play" is that we desperately need a 2nd pairing defenseman, ideally a #2/3 with good skating and a good first pass.

Cole isn't a top-4 guy on a Cup caliber team, imo. He's not really any good at any aspect of the game. He's not a hitter, he's not good offensively, he's not good defensively, he's not a PP specialist, he's not great positionally or with his stick. He's a decent, if not good bottom pairing guy, but anything above that is way too many minutes and too much responsibility for a guy who essentially brings nothing to the table.

While I like Dumoulin's game thus far (he's probably been our best defensemen, all things considered, not that it's a huge accomplishment), I'd like to see more than an solid game from him over the course of 15-20 games before I chisel his name into the top-4 long term.

I wouldn't chisel it in either, but I would hold off on trading anything of value to fill the spot he is currently filling more than adequately. And he's doing it with Ben Lovejoy as his 2nd pairing partner.

I will say, I'm currently more confident in Dumoulin as a 2nd pairing anchor than I am in Maatta as a top pairing partner for Letang. Though I do think they are each likely going to be a good option for that respective role.

It really really kills me how perfect...no I'm not even going to say it

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

.


We have the luxury of being deep enough to try Sid with Geno full time now. I mean it really can't get any worse offensively for us.

It's not a luxury, it's dumb.

What we have the luxury of is finally surrounding Sid and Geno with talent. Let's do that.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I wouldn't chisel it in either, but I would hold off on trading anything of value to fill the spot he is currently filling more than adequately. And he's doing it with Ben Lovejoy as his 2nd pairing partner.

I will say, I'm currently more confident in Dumoulin as a 2nd pairing anchor than I am in Maatta as a top pairing partner for Letang. It really really kills me how perfect...no I'm not even going to say it

Yep. I don't even wanna touch on it, because it really would be great to have him. But as soon as that Pandora's Box is opened, there's no closing it.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I think this is where we differ in opinion.

I think a #4/5 is our biggest need, while a #2/3 would be the ideal acquisition. But I just don't think we need an ideal defense with our forward group, and I think we already have a more than adequate top 3 if not top 4 group. I would rather have better LWs and an adequate defense than adequate LWs and a better defense. I'm not sure we can expect to have both.

 

[Boocock]

It's not a luxury, it's dumb.

What we have the luxury of is finally surrounding Sid and Geno with talent. Let's do that.

It's not a dumb idea at all - so long as Sid is playing like himself at least. Sometimes it's best to load up the front lines.

 

[Ogrezilla]

It's not a dumb idea at all - so long as Sid is playing like himself at least. Sometimes it's best to load up the front lines.

Malkin is a better center than wing though. Its dumb because it downgrades our 2nd best player by moving him out of position. Its not like Toews and Kane where they are split purely to spread the talent. Putting them together still leaves them both in their best position. That's not true with Sid and Geno. If Geno was playing wing on the 2nd line, you would be right. It would make sense. But he isn't a wing.

Also, we don't have anybody else who should be a #2C. I like Bonino, and he may be able to work as a complimentary top 6 guy at LW, but he's not a 2C.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I think this is where we differ in opinion.

I think a #4/5 is our biggest need, while a #2/3 would be the ideal acquisition. But I just don't think we need an ideal defense with our forward group, and I think we already have a more than adequate top 3 if not top 4 group. I would rather have better LWs and an adequate defense than adequate LWs and a better defense. I'm not sure we can expect to have both.

Yeah, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I think a #2/3 is a need, and a #4/5 isn't gonna be good enough.

Let's, just to twist the knife a little deeper, think about what could've been;

Maatta - Letang
Despres - Trouba
Dumoulin - Cole

Alright, I got that off my chest.

It's not a dumb idea at all - so long as Sid is playing like himself at least. Sometimes it's best to load up the front lines.

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but I think it's idiotic.

We finally, for the first time in a decade, have the depth to give Sid and Geno both legitimate wingers, and we're talking about loading them up and putting Kessel with Bonino.

Yeah, that's dumb. Sorry.

To be fair, it's probably exactly why this coach will do it. He loves to do dumb ****.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Yeah, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I think a #2/3 is a need, and a #4/5 isn't gonna be good enough.

Let's, just to twist the knife a little deeper, think about what could've been;

Maatta - Letang
Despres - Trouba
Dumoulin - Cole

Alright, I got that off my chest.

If we're redoing that draft we should have Forsberg, not Trouba.

And if we need a #2/3, I think we're in a lot of trouble because I don't see how we're going to get one. We will just create another big hole if we try.

 

[Pancakes]

I don't want to make any trades right now while we have this coach. It would just be a waste of assets.

If we're still struggling to score with a new coach then we can entertain the possibilities.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

If we're redoing that draft we should have Forsberg, not Trouba.

And if we need a #2/3, I think we're in a lot of trouble because I don't see how we're going to get one. We will just create another big hole if we try.

Couldn't go wrong with either of 'em, really. I didn't expect Forsberg to fall to that pick, and I didn't think there was a chance in Hell Shero would've taken him, so I was extremely excited for us to grab Trouba. But instead, we took the smallish PMD. Big surprise.

JR's definitely gonna have to get creative, that's for sure, but I still think it's vitally important for us to get that #2/3 guy. Both for this season as well as moving forward.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Couldn't go wrong with either of 'em, really. I didn't expect Forsberg to fall to that pick, and I didn't think there was a chance in Hell Shero would've taken him, so I was extremely excited for us to grab Trouba. But instead, we took the smallish PMD. Big surprise.

JR's definitely gonna have to get creative, that's for sure, but I still think it's vitally important for us to get that #2/3 guy. Both for this season as well as moving forward.

How? Who would you move that can get that kind of return? We're not talking Perron here, we're talking Hornqvist.

 

[Boocock]

Ogre, McGuirk, I could be talking out of my ass. That's a possibility.

That disclaimer out of the way, I really do like the idea of loading Malkin and Crosby together - at least for some of the time. They have the best chemistry of any combo on the team, and they're elite talents. That might make up for positional changes. It's at least something to think about during positional matchups. All they do is score goals and drive possession.

Over the course of their careers, when they've played together, they've recorded a GF60 of 4.68 and a CF60 of 67.45. When apart, Malkin records a GF60 of 2.99 and a CF60 of 57.74. For Crosby? 3.45 and 61.48.

Think back to those late 2000s Red Wings squads. Zetterberg (who, admittedly, is listed as a LW) and Datsyuk are better as Cs, sure. But, there were times when it made sense put them together in a playoff series.

Top Line: Malkin - Crosby - Hornqvist --> works like Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Holmstrom
Scoring Line: Perron - Bonino - Kessel --> limit the defensive starts for this group
Cycle Line: Plotnikov - Fehr - Bennett --> as the name suggests, generate offense off the cycle
Grind Line: Dupuis - Cullen - Rust --> defensive, balls-to-the-wall line

This is assuming Sprong is sent back to juniors - which I don't necessarily agree with. It would be fun to think of where he could slot up. Sprong makes so many smart decisions with the puck for someone his age. The lineup also assumes a Chris Kunitz trade, which is unlikely.

Some players could be swapped in and out. Maybe Fehr goes up with Perron and Kessel for a bigger defensive presence? I like the idea of Fehr on L3 though.

Of course, this combo may just work better:
Perron - Malkin - Kessel
Bonino - Crosby - Hornqvist
Plotnikov - Fehr - Bennett
Dupuis - Cullen - Rust

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

How? Who would you move that can get that kind of return? We're not talking Perron here, we're talking Hornqvist.

I don't know. I'm not the GM, nor do I envy his job moving forward.

But we're gonna have to part with something significant to land the piece we need in order to fix the blueline, imo.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I think Fehr's gonna be a winger when he comes back, and I think he'll move up and down the lineup depending on where his presence is needed and how he's playing.

Any combination of Sid-Hornqvist and Malkin-Kessel, build around that. Assuming Hornqvist is willing and capable of switching to LW, this is my lineup when healthy (lol, riiiiight);

Hornqvist - Crosby - Sprong
Bennett - Malkin - Kessel
Perron - Bonino - Fehr
Plotnikov - Cullen - Dupuis