Confirmed with Link: Sabres hire a VP of Hockey Strategy and Research

[Buffaloed]

I disagree. The Pegulas didn't make botteril an idiot or the coaches bad coaches...

Also, we don't know the extent of the Pegulas meddling. A lot of people are very sure about this, but I've yet to see a report that was something more than feelings about what their meddling actually was... this reminds me of the years that people freaked out about Overdorf on the Bills as some secret GM.

If the Pegulas forced the ROR trade, they did make Botterill an idiot. When an employer forces an employee to do something monumentally stupid and harmful to the business it changes their whole attitude towards the business. If the Pegulas didn't force the ROR trade, Botterill already was an idiot.

 

[Jeremy2020]

If the Pegulas forced the ROR trade, they did make Botterill an idiot. When an employer forces an employee to do something monumentally stupid and harmful to the business it changes their whole attitude towards the business. If the Pegulas didn't force the ROR trade, Botterill already was an idiot.

Let's just say they forced the trade... I have a hunch they didn't tell botterill to go out and trade him for absolute dog****. If they were so concerned about a 7.5 million payout, were they the ones who said to sign skinner to that ridiculous contract?

This "it's all Pegula's secret meddling" narrative just strikes me as an emotional one designed to make it simple and allow people to easily blame something over dealing with the complex reality that there's many factors that play into the state of the Sabres.

 

[Jim Bob]

Much of Sabres Twitter loves to have a hissy fit over any rumors.

There isn't much to do right now....

 

[Jim Bob]

Two things I don't get:

The obsession people have with creating NHL rumors (Thanks Eklund).

The obsession people have with believing/debating rumors.

Some dude literally made a website called nhlrumors.com and posts anything he wants on it. People then RT and spread this crap. WHY?!?

Why do people post on internet web boards about things as largely inconsequential as pro hockey teams?

 

[Jim Bob]

Adams followed through on his word with the Sabres front office changes

 

[BloFan4Life]

Why do people post on internet web boards about things as largely inconsequential as pro hockey teams?

It's the quickest way to find people that have similar interests as you. It may take you hours to find someone on the streets to share opinions on the Sabres with. You can do it in seconds here.

Not sure what you were trying to get at.

 

[Jim Bob]

It's the quickest way to find people that have similar interests as you. It may take you hours to find someone on the streets to share opinions on the Sabres with. You can do it in seconds here.

Not sure what you were trying to get at.

This whole site is built on debating hypotheticals.

If we get rid of arguing over all the variety of things that could happen, way more than 50% of the conversations here go away.

We debate what might happen way more than what actually did happen.

 

[jc17]

It seems it will never happen but I just wish WGR would try to get Ventura on for an interview

 

[Jim Bob]

It seems it will never happen but I just wish WGR would try to get Ventura on for an interview

I don't know who on WGR I would want talking to Ventura, though.

 

[jc17]

I don't know who on WGR I would want talking to Ventura, though.

Jeremy or schopp would be the only 2 possibilities I think.

Having him talk to the instigators might actually be interesting because he'd be forced to explain things in a way people who aren't super familiar with the stats can understand. But I feel that might be too much an uphill battle

 

[brian_griffin]

Let's just say they forced the trade... I have a hunch they didn't tell botterill to go out and trade him for absolute dog****. If they were so concerned about a 7.5 million payout, were they the ones who said to sign skinner to that ridiculous contract?

This "it's all Pegula's secret meddling" narrative just strikes me as an emotional one designed to make it simple and allow people to easily blame something over dealing with the complex reality that there's many factors that play into the state of the Sabres.

It doesn’t matter whether the meddling is secret or overt. Incompetence needs no cloak. Trading ROR because they disliked his drinking and overpaying Skinner because 40 goals with smiles despite cautionary bad-value arguments in both cases before the deals were done has little to do with complexity and more with hubris.

 

[SackTastic]

I disagree. The Pegulas didn't make botteril an idiot or the coaches bad coaches...

Also, we don't know the extent of the Pegulas meddling. A lot of people are very sure about this, but I've yet to see a report that was something more than feelings about what their meddling actually was... this reminds me of the years that people freaked out about Overdorf on the Bills as some secret GM.

It's long been confirmed that Erhoff and Leino were directives from Pegula, because he wanted to 'make a splash'.

Most of the sports reporters in town will tell you off the record that JB didn't want to move ROR but was forced to by Terry. Same with the max extension for Skinner.

There has been plenty of non-message board chatter for years that Krueger was 100% a Pegula hire, and JB didn't want to do it. ( And this was all before we saw how much of a snake oil salesman Ralphie was. )

We all saw the video of Pegula in the room during the Hall negotiations talking about how this was a move to push them towards a Cup.

Even if you assume some of the rumors aren't entirely true, which is fair, there's enough smoke here over a decade to reasonably infer the guy sticks his nose into things repeatedly.

EDIT: Lest we also not forget when he hired a President of Hockey Operations ( LaFontaine ), who gave Tim Murray direction on what to do with Millsy. TM didn't like what he was told, so he ran the end around. A non-meddling owner would have said 'Patty is the Pres of Hockey Ops, so this is his decision'. But Terry stuck his nose in and overruled LaFontaine, which is why he quit.

 

[SackTastic]

Let's just say they forced the trade... I have a hunch they didn't tell botterill to go out and trade him for absolute dog****. If they were so concerned about a 7.5 million payout, were they the ones who said to sign skinner to that ridiculous contract?

This "it's all Pegula's secret meddling" narrative just strikes me as an emotional one designed to make it simple and allow people to easily blame something over dealing with the complex reality that there's many factors that play into the state of the Sabres.

It's not secret meddling.

"We felt like we needed to be heard," co-owner Terry Pegula said during a video conference call. "I'm not going to sit here and dish on Jason Botterill, but we have a vision and we want to see our vision succeed.
"We were in detailed discussions with Jason, and how we felt we needed to move forward effectively, efficiently and economically running this franchise, we felt there were too many differences of opinion going into the future."

 

[Fezzy126]

It seems it will never happen but I just wish WGR would try to get Ventura on for an interview

The dude has a PHD in statistics, you stick those guys in a closet in the back of the building and never let them talk to customers.

Man, I'm glad you're not in charge of my company...

 

[Sabre Dance]

I said this before but I'll repeat since it's a positive view of the Pegulas. Yes they've been owners of the Sabres for 10 years with mostly dreadful results. However they've only seen a successful pro sports front office operate the last couple of years. 2 years ago the Bills hired Dennis Lock as Director of Football Research and Strategy.

I believe the hiring of Ventura only happened because of what the Pegulas witnessed with the Bills. Basically the same position except one is a VP and the other is a Director. Both given titles to pluck them from other teams.

I really wouldn't be shocked if the Pegulas and Adams are picking the brain of Brandon Beane for help building the Sabres front office. This move shows a connection.

 

[Buffaloed]

Let's just say they forced the trade... I have a hunch they didn't tell botterill to go out and trade him for absolute dog****. If they were so concerned about a 7.5 million payout, were they the ones who said to sign skinner to that ridiculous contract?

This "it's all Pegula's secret meddling" narrative just strikes me as an emotional one designed to make it simple and allow people to easily blame something over dealing with the complex reality that there's many factors that play into the state of the Sabres.

Contracts of that magnitude always require ownership approval to be traded. Terry Pegula knew exactly what the Sabres were getting in return.

 

[joshjull]

Contracts of that magnitude always require ownership approval to be traded. Terry Pegula knew exactly what the Sabres were getting in return.

He probably had to sign off on a trading a player like that. But I doubt he knew what they return would be. Botts didn’t even know until he called Armstrong back in a panic to make a deal happen the day the bonus was due.

 

[Beerz]

It's not secret meddling.

That quote was about gutting the hockey department.. not ROR or Skinner

 

[jc17]

The dude has a PHD in statistics, you stick those guys in a closet in the back of the building and never let them talk to customers.

Man, I'm glad you're not in charge of my company...

I would understand if the Sabres said no, I just doubt the local media has tried

 

[OkimLom]

That quote was about gutting the hockey department.. not ROR or Skinner

To be fair, that is a quote that shows an ownership group that meddles, whether it's for player reasons or hockey department personnel reasons. That hockey department is something the GM uses to make his life easier, and possibly more streamlined to get information quickly and get as many input from men he trusts. While the owners have full rights to worry about the finances of the department and the investment portion of the department, messing with how a hockey department is structured, when the GM is the one that will be using the department more frequently than anybody else to do their job, to oversee the GM's vision of a team, is impacting the effectiveness of said GM and his job.

 

[Sabre Dance]

To be fair, that is a quote that shows an ownership group that meddles, whether it's for player reasons or hockey department personnel reasons. That hockey department is something the GM uses to make his life easier, and possibly more streamlined to get information quickly and get as many input from men he trusts. While the owners have full rights to worry about the finances of the department and the investment portion of the department, messing with how a hockey department is structured, when the GM is the one that will be using the department more frequently than anybody else to do their job, to oversee the GM's vision of a team, is impacting the effectiveness of said GM and his job.

It showed ownership and GM were not on the same page after meeting with him. Obviously the likely reason for his firing was because he didn't believe in the direction the Pegulas wanted to go. Firings and less operating cost.

This isn't meddling. It's an owner making front office changes, which happens often.

Meddling is not a good word for the Pegulas. Dysfunction is much better. Instability also works.

 

[joshjull]

It's not secret meddling.

"We felt like we needed to be heard," co-owner Terry Pegula said during a video conference call. "I'm not going to sit here and dish on Jason Botterill, but we have a vision and we want to see our vision succeed.

"We were in detailed discussions with Jason, and how we felt we needed to move forward effectively, efficiently and economically running this franchise, we felt there were too many differences of opinion going into the future."

The first part of that quote is talking about how Pegula felt he wasn’t listened to by Botts. Odd thing for a puppet master to say about his puppet.


The quote in total is talking about the new “flat management” they were going to go with post Botts and post front office purge. Where the Terry, Kim, Krueger and Adams were all on the same level in the management structure. Thats not meddling. That’s becoming part of the front office structure.

 

[joshjull]

……………………….

EDIT: Lest we also not forget when he hired a President of Hockey Operations ( LaFontaine ), who gave Tim Murray direction on what to do with Millsy. TM didn't like what he was told, so he ran the end around. A non-meddling owner would have said 'Patty is the Pres of Hockey Ops, so this is his decision'. But Terry stuck his nose in and overruled LaFontaine, which is why he quit.

A non meddling owner would have told McDermitt the same thing. Whaley is the GM so these are his decisions.


When the “meddling” works out no one gives a shit. But Terry very much “stuck his nose in” to ensure the head coach could act as GM. Then effectively allowed him to bring in his buddy as GM.


I’m hoping Terry allowing Adams to do his thing since Krueger got canned is another happy accident that works out like McBeane has.

 

[Buffaloed]

you win. That’s all I had.

I intentionally omitted mentioning the governorship to lure someone in and do the Ventura Highway bit. It's all about timing.

 

[Fezzy126]

There has been plenty of non-message board chatter for years that Krueger was 100% a Pegula hire, and JB didn't want to do it. ( And this was all before we saw how much of a snake oil salesman Ralphie was. )

Source? I've never heard anything remotely close to this. What was reported was that Botts' father coached Krueger and he was reportedly a friend of the family that Botts wanted to hire the first time around before settling for Housley.

The first part of that quote is talking about how Pegula felt he wasn’t listened to by Botts. Odd thing for a puppet master to say about his puppet.


The quote in total is talking about the new “flat management” they were going to go with post Botts and post front office purge. Where the Terry, Kim, Krueger and Adams were all on the same level in the management structure. Thats not meddling. That’s becoming part of the front office structure.

Our roster was over the salary cap, we had one of the largest front offices in the league, and we had one of the highest paid coaching staffs in the league. Despite all the financial resources the Pegulas put into the franchise we were still one of the worst teams in the league.

I think a lot of what they told the media was just word salad, particularly the flat management stuff. I think they used the pandemic as an excuse to gut the house down to the foundation and always intended to build it back up properly. They just didn't want to rebuild while there was so much uncertainty about being able to play the season, having fans in the stands, etc. So as a result they gave Krueger a chance to sink or swim, and if you don't want him to fall back on "well I didn't have the right players" excuse, you let him do the grocery shopping (to quote good ole Parcells)