Ryan Kesler Part III

[Lundface*]

If Kesler was that bad he would have been near Edler like +/- numbers- playing much easier competition. Golden boy Higgins was -14 playing less minutes and easier competition. Daniel Sedin at 0 despite getting easy-peezy competition. Love of everyone's life Jason Garrison -4 despite playing some of the easiest competition on the D core. Hansen a startling -9 despite playing even easier competition than Daniel.

Your argument is flawed.

Compare him to the other center's on the team with similar QOC

Corsi rel QOC / plus minus

Kesler 1.258 / -15
Santorelli 1.010/ +9
H.Sedin 0.979/ +3

Even looking at those numbers (all dependant on plus minus, so if you don't like plus minus well then those stats are completely useless) Kesler took on tougher matchups (no not severely as you are pretending) and did much worse.

Santorelli was +24 better than Kesler with slightly "easier" competiton!! You just swayed me more into the thought that Kesler was pretty bad last season.

You have no argument. Comparing him to defencemen has zero worth. Hansen was atrocious last season so again go right ahead and compare Kesler to him.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

Compare him to the other center's on the team with similar QOC

Corsi rel QOC / plus minus

Kesler 1.258 / -15
Santorelli 1.010/ +9
H.Sedin 0.979/ +3

Even looking at those numbers (all dependant on plus minus, so if you don't like plus minus well then those stats are completely useless) Kesler took on tougher matchups (no not severely as you are pretending) and did much worse.

Santorelli was +24 better than Kesler with slightly "easier" competiton!! You just swayed me more into the thought that Kesler was pretty bad last season.

You have no argument. Comparing him to defencemen has zero worth. Hansen was atrocious last season so again go right ahead and compare Kesler to him.

Its doubtful that Santorelli is even re-signed here so I don't think many GM's agree with your assessment. If Santorelli is Kesler's replacement as 2C this team might set a record for lowest scoring of all time.

And Sanorelli's competition wasn't "slightly" easier, it was easier, for less games and less total minutes. Santorelli is not a 2C in the western conference.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

The Sedins will see gains if other offensive players are brought in.

As it stands Henrik is dragging Daniel plus another linemate with nothing behind him. The pressure is squarely on the Sedins, teams don't have to worry about any other option on the Canucks.

Before Kesler was able to play cleanup and feast on easy matchups (with Malholtra took the defensive responsibilities) but all of that is gone.

Kesler's defensive play has fallen off as far as his offence has. His reputation is what makes people make excuses for his lack of offence, but he was terrible in his own end this past season as well.

But the problem runs much deeper than the top 3 players on this team. Looking at playoff production its pathetic the production this team gets out of any player not named Sedin or Kesler.

You want to go deep? You'll need to add two to 6 forwards and bump others down the lineup.

As for Kesler- he's not a player that can drive or create much offence. Santorelli looked much better with worse linemates than Kesler last season. His level of play has dropped off significantly, might have something to do with him wanting to leave, but he isn't near the player people think he is.

When you listen to Benning or Desjardins, both of whom are from outside this organization, each guy speaks glowingly of the Sedins. As leaders, as players as humans. Sounds like people inside hockey circles can see the character of these guys as well as their ability.

While I do not entirely disagree, I feel a large part of the issue, for Kesler and the Sedins, was Torts' utter dependency on them. Kesler, in particular, played more minutes than he ever has in his career, with only Kopitar playing as versatile a role. This became readily apparent in the trailing end of December and early January when the three of them looked absolutely dead. In fact, let's look at their production.

Henrik
Oct-Dec: 41-9-26-35 +9
Jan-Apr: 29-2-13-15 -6

Daniel
Oct-Dec: 41-13-22-35 +9
Jan-Apr: 31-3-8-12 -10

Kesler
Oct-Dec: 41-15-12-27 +2
Jan-Apr: 36-10-6-16 -16

All three of our best players had significant declines after December, yet previously were playing up to their relative average. In fact, Daniel stands out notably as being a completely different player from the first stretch of the season to the second. Torts is notorious for overplaying his players - something New York fans still complain about even now. Safe to say, they know what they're talking about.

 

[Alan Jackson]

Its doubtful that Santorelli is even re-signed here so I don't think many GM's agree with your assessment. If Santorelli is Kesler's replacement as 2C this team might set a record for lowest scoring of all time.

Didn't they already do that last season?

 

[Canucker]

Didn't they already do that last season?

Yep, Kesler couldn't pick up the slack when Santorelli went down.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

Didn't they already do that last season?

This past Canucks team set it for this franchise, but without Keslers's goals we're floating in Buffalo range for GF. You haven't seen misery until youve seen your team score less than 2 a game

 

[y2kcanucks]

While I do not entirely disagree, I feel a large part of the issue, for Kesler and the Sedins, was Torts' utter dependency on them. Kesler, in particular, played more minutes than he ever has in his career, with only Kopitar playing as versatile a role. This became readily apparent in the trailing end of December and early January when the three of them looked absolutely dead. In fact, let's look at their production.

Henrik
Oct-Dec: 41-9-26-35 +9
Jan-Apr: 29-2-13-15 -6

Daniel
Oct-Dec: 41-13-22-35 +9
Jan-Apr: 31-3-8-12 -10

Kesler
Oct-Dec: 41-15-12-27 +2
Jan-Apr: 36-10-6-16 -16

All three of our best players had significant declines after December, yet previously were playing up to their relative average. In fact, Daniel stands out notably as being a completely different player from the first stretch of the season to the second. Torts is notorious for overplaying his players - something New York fans still complain about even now. Safe to say, they know what they're talking about.

Actually these guys all started to struggle after October.

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

Question as a non-Canucks fan.
Back in 2011 when Kesler was scoring 40 goals and winning the Selke wasn't Malhotra taking the tough defensive matchups?

Kesler is a damn fine defensive forward. And a damn fine offensive one but does he really do both at the same time? We've seen years where Kesler put up some not so impressive offensive numbers in the past few years. Are those due to a bigger defensive role after Malhotra hurt his eye?

Can you give Kesler the job night in and night out of shutting down the opposing top lines and he'll still give you first line production or is this asking too much from him?

 

[Canucker]

Question as a non-Canucks fan.
Back in 2011 when Kesler was scoring 40 goals and winning the Selke wasn't Malhotra taking the tough defensive matchups?

Kesler is a damn fine defensive forward. And a damn fine offensive one but does he really do both at the same time? We've seen years where Kesler put up some not so impressive offensive numbers in the past few years. Are those due to a bigger defensive role after Malhotra hurt his eye?

Can you give Kesler the job night in and night out of shutting down the opposing top lines and he'll still give you first line production or is this asking too much from him?

It's beyond his capabilities.

 

[LickTheEnvelope]

Question as a non-Canucks fan.
Back in 2011 when Kesler was scoring 40 goals and winning the Selke wasn't Malhotra taking the tough defensive matchups?

Kesler is a damn fine defensive forward. And a damn fine offensive one but does he really do both at the same time? We've seen years where Kesler put up some not so impressive offensive numbers in the past few years. Are those due to a bigger defensive role after Malhotra hurt his eye?

Can you give Kesler the job night in and night out of shutting down the opposing top lines and he'll still give you first line production or is this asking too much from him?

Depends on his line-mates I would imagine. He's had pretty bad wingers in Vancouver.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

Actually these guys all started to struggle after October.

So... being on a near PPG pace (Sedins) and scoring 27 points in 41 games (Kesler) is considered a struggle? Huh, you learn something new everyday.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

Question as a non-Canucks fan.
Back in 2011 when Kesler was scoring 40 goals and winning the Selke wasn't Malhotra taking the tough defensive matchups?

Kesler is a damn fine defensive forward. And a damn fine offensive one but does he really do both at the same time? We've seen years where Kesler put up some not so impressive offensive numbers in the past few years. Are those due to a bigger defensive role after Malhotra hurt his eye?

Can you give Kesler the job night in and night out of shutting down the opposing top lines and he'll still give you first line production or is this asking too much from him?

That has be among our issues since 2011. We've been utterly dependent on Kesler to do everything, which is just not in his capabilities. He takes all the defensive zone draws, plays on the top line powerplay, is our go to penalty killer and still starts a decent amount in the offensive zone. That is going to drain a player fast. We need someone else to lift the load, whether it's Santorelli, Reinhart, Bolland or Grabovski. We just need more.

 

[Lundface*]

Its doubtful that Santorelli is even re-signed here so I don't think many GM's agree with your assessment. If Santorelli is Kesler's replacement as 2C this team might set a record for lowest scoring of all time.

And Sanorelli's competition wasn't "slightly" easier, it was easier, for less games and less total minutes. Santorelli is not a 2C in the western conference.

When did I say he will replace him? I'm saying last season Santorelli was the better player. This all started when the discussion started about not getting Selke votes.

The team this past season was decent with Henrik/Santo healthy and terrible without them. They have also shown the past year they were better without Kesler than with him,...and that was with NO Santorelli to replace minutes. Schroeder who is a borderline 13th forward replaced him and Vancouver didn't miss Kesler at all.

Kesler wants out. Trade him, get some good young pieces back and use all the cap space they have from Luongo/Booth/Kesler + cap rising to add some pieces.

 

[Win One Before I Die]

So... being on a near PPG pace (Sedins) and scoring 27 points in 41 games (Kesler) is considered a struggle? Huh, you learn something new everyday.

Yeah didn't they win like 7 or something in a row? What a struggle.

 

[John Bender*]

It's beyond his capabilities.

Then why is there so much interest in him? What are the pro scouts around the nhl missing that you are getting?

 

[Reign Nateo]

It's beyond his capabilities.

Shutting down the opposition's top line AND providing top line offence is beyond almost anyone's capabilities. Those centres aren't available.

 

[BobbyJazzLegs]

Then why is there so much interest in him? What are the pro scouts around the nhl missing that you are getting?

Because they have better players than us to compliment him and subsequently his workload will be lighter?

Which is generally the same argument the "bring in top 6 wingers or a shutdown 3c" crowd have.

 

[Canucker]

Then why is there so much interest in him? What are the pro scouts around the nhl missing that you are getting?

They think they can get him to return to form by giving him a solid supporting cast...and maybe they can, but he's not good enough to carry a line on his own offensively, and his defensive game hasn't been as effective as in the past. Put him with some elite talent and he can be an extremely effective complementary player.

 

[BobbyJazzLegs]

Its doubtful that Santorelli is even re-signed here so I don't think many GM's agree with your assessment.

Through a series a random circumstance, my friend of mine was told that Iginla is apparently tops on Benning's list for FA signing and they'll be putting an offer out to him. It was also said Santorelli and the Canucks have spoken and no rush has been put on his re-sign as apparently it's just nickels and dimes at this point.

hmmm

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

Question as a non-Canucks fan.
Back in 2011 when Kesler was scoring 40 goals and winning the Selke wasn't Malhotra taking the tough defensive matchups?

Kesler is a damn fine defensive forward. And a damn fine offensive one but does he really do both at the same time? We've seen years where Kesler put up some not so impressive offensive numbers in the past few years. Are those due to a bigger defensive role after Malhotra hurt his eye?

Can you give Kesler the job night in and night out of shutting down the opposing top lines and he'll still give you first line production or is this asking too much from him?

Kesler didn't deserve the Selke in 2011. Malhotra got all the tougher matchups, that is correct. But IMO he had the best two-way season in recent memory of anyone not named Datsyuk in 2009-10, and really deserved it more that year. But Selke voting is downright stupid these days.

Kesler was a 75-point player and had to burden some tough matchups along the way. Much tougher than 2010-11. But he's not the same player anymore. He's not putting up big numbers without playing tough minutes anymore. He'll still be around 40-50 (roughly 2nd line production numbers), and he'd be far and away the best 3rd line center in the league.

It's really hard to put in to words how great his 2009-10, and just how criminal it was he didn't win the Selke that season. The 2010-11 was more a make-up vote than anything. Malhotra was more deserving of it from the Canucks that year. That said, I have a huge bone to pick with who gets the Selke Trophy these days. It should be going to the Malhotras of the league, IMO.

 

[MS]

Then why is there so much interest in him? What are the pro scouts around the nhl missing that you are getting?

We don't know how much interest there is.

We've heard reports that there were 6 or 8 teams on his list and only 2 were actually interested, but who knows if that's true.

 

[y2kcanucks]

So... being on a near PPG pace (Sedins) and scoring 27 points in 41 games (Kesler) is considered a struggle? Huh, you learn something new everyday.

Scoring at a 0.77PPG pace (Daniel), 0.65PPG (Henrik), and 0.62PPG (Kesler) is significantly lower than we expect/what they're being paid to do. This is from November-December.

So yes, after October they all struggled.

 

[John Bender*]

We don't know how much interest there is.

We've heard reports that there were 6 or 8 teams on his list and only 2 were actually interested, but who knows if that's true.

From all the reports from reputable sources out there, Kesler is pretty much the big fish out there on the trade market right now. My point is, if he sucks as much as has been proposed here, why aren't the pro scouts catching on? Either hfboards posters with cool nicks and sweet avatars know more than the pro scouts or the hfboards is wrong.

 

[Canucker]

From all the reports from reputable sources out there, Kesler is pretty much the big fish out there on the trade market right now. My point is, if he sucks as much as has been proposed here, why aren't the pro scouts catching on? Either hfboards posters with cool nicks and sweet avatars know more than the pro scouts or the hfboards is wrong.

Who said he "sucks"? He's just not a piece that should be looked at as someone who is going to carry a line offensively and play Selke level defense. Doesn't mean he isn't a valuable player.

 

[damack]

From all the reports from reputable sources out there, Kesler is pretty much the big fish out there on the trade market right now. My point is, if he sucks as much as has been proposed here, why aren't the pro scouts catching on? Either hfboards posters with cool nicks and sweet avatars know more than the pro scouts or the hfboards is wrong.

gasp!