RW/LW Klim Kostin (2017, 31st, STL, traded to EDM)
- Thread starter Pavel Buchnevich
- Start date
He is that good. But he needed seasoning in the KHL instead of all that moving around.
Fogelhund
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All that moving around? He played three seasons, for the same AHL team. How is that "all that moving around"?
Going over to NA usually means adjustment time. Easily the first year is just adjustment. And at the age at which he's done that it was the last thing he needed, because hockey adjustment is one thing. Tha he would have to go through anyway(while it would be easier later on), but the whole learning the language, organizing your life in a whole new environment and all that are jsut things that take away from hockey development time and energy. Now he is back in Russia and has to adjust again. So many of them think that somehow going over earlier is better than concentrating on development with the team that knows them best in a comfortable environment. So many of them fail because of that. Kostin has or had the tools. It is at this point a bit worrying that he can't get a grip on the KHL.
Fogelhund
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Three years in NA... plenty of time to adjust. Strange how so many other players do it just fine, and often in their first year. Strange how a guy like Korskov, comes to NA right away, first season does decent, and then goes back to the KHL the year after, and is doing pretty well too.
This has nothing to do with going to NA, or time to adjust, or being bounced around (which he wasn't)... either he had troubles adjusting his game to higher levels of comp, or he's just not that good.
Korshkov came over at 23 ,already a man with plenty of KHL experience and is 24 now. Kostin came over at 18 with limited pro much less MHL experience ,jumped straight to the AHL and is currently 21 . These two are not at all comparable.
Fogelhund
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P0int well missed. I could have listed any of dozens of players, who have come from Europe, and played in the AHL, CHL, NHL at similar ages, and managed to acclimatize just fine. More to the point of Atlas2000 postings, Kostin hasn't been hampered by coming to North America, where somehow he would have been developed better in the KHL. The AHL is a perfectly fine development league, and he hasn't been bounced around as Atlas claimed.
Ovechkin of course is not comparable to Kostin I just meant in comparision to what he was doing in the NHL, Ovi wasn't nearly as dominant in international competition when he was playing in World Championships, Olympics etc in a different style game.
I challenge then you to name several young Russian forwards who came North America early (CHL, USHL, AHL ) and have managed to have any sort of success in the NHL. I doubt you can name even a handful
Fogelhund
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Svechnikov, Dahlin, Hischier, Heiskanen, Pettersen, Necas, Laine, Sergachev, Hronek, Bratt, Provorov, Rantanen, Draisaitl, Nylander, Ehlers, Vrana, Kapanen, Barkov, Ristolainen, Lindholm, Buchnevich, Kucherov, Vasilevsky,
Fogelhund
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I got the point.... So, what is exactly the difference between Europeans leaving their country, and a new culture/language, vs Russians? Are you proposing that Euros can adapt better than Russians for some reason?
I won't comment on non-Russians, as they are not part of discussion, but just prove my point that you have to use them to try and make it look like you have a point. The whole discussion ALWAYS was about Russians having trouble going through CHL/AHL. Oh well, I might as well comment a bit. Dahlin? Seriously? A 1OA? And then stilll I easily give you Yakupov. Petterson? A 5th overall who should have been first of second at at least? And then both Swedes never played a single game in NA minors(nor should they). How are they relevant to the discusssion of developing through the NA minors? They are both a perfect example for two things: Europeans develop just fine at home. Top notch talented players are not relevant to this discussion as they step right into the NHL after the draft and never have to play in NA minors after the draft and those are exactly the crucial years for the slightly less talented players we are talking about the whole time. Basically the D-1 to D+3 seasons when it is determined at which level a junior prospect can contribute in men's hockey(might be even longer for defecemen). So, obviously here we are too with Laine, a 2nd OA who never played a game in NA minors. Hischier a 1OA who is from a less powerfull hockey nation of Switzerland, so he did play in the Q(while I assume the swiss juniors aren't that bad btw)... before the draft and never after it as a 1OA NHL ready prospect. But then even the 162nd overall Bratt never played a game in NA minors(so what is he doing on the list?). Drai? He is german. Germany does not have a top notch development system for juniors. Russia does. Draisaitl literally had no choice except he would decide to develop in Russia or say Sweden which would be odd as I know quite a bit about german hockey and they start the morning with a prayer to canadian hockey. One could use Draisait as an example and explanation of what was going on with russian prospects in the 90s. Back then when the russian leagues were falling apart young Russians had no choice but to leave for NA. Barkov? 2OA, never played a game in NA minors. See? Even for non-Russians your list is just vanishing in the haze. I could go on dissecting every single non-Russian player's development on your list, but let's stop at that and move to the actual core of the problem in question.
As for the Russians on your list I am really tired of repeating myself as most North Americans would bring up all the same names ignorantly so often and I explained it what feels like a hunderd times.
Provorov left Russia at 14. He is actually the product of the US defencemen development systen, which is quite adequate if you look at their D. We are not talking here about Russians leaving home at 12 and never developing in russian juniors.
The guys who really stand out on your list are Buchnevich and Vasilevskiy. With Buch you pick a guy who actually proves my point. He developed in the KHL after the draft, then came to NA to play a humongous sum of 4 AHL games in NA minors. So he was basically a NHL ready KHL product. Vasilevskiy is an another fine example of development of Russians at home. In his case he is also meeting those other criteria. He ALWAYS was a top tier goaltending prospect. He never needed NA minors and was NHL ready the day he came to NA. He's had quite a KHL resume by then(which can be a very good idicator for the development level of a player. Ususally those who already thrive in the KHL have little trouble stepping right into the NHL). He is no Berdin.
Not Kucherov again... I explained this a thousand times. He was a 1OA level talent, always. The NHL makes mistakes. It's not new. He never was gonna fail. The uniqueness of his situation is though that in Russia he was stuck with a bad org(which was fixed right after he left, but he obviously shouldn't have bet his hockey future on an opportunity of the orgnization he was with being fixed overnight). He HAD to leave. He had close to NO choice. And Ia am to this day sure the whole CHL/AHL time was slowing him down rather than helping his development. But he is just that kind of talent which won't be denied.
Yeah, Svechnikov again. I give you the fact that he played in the CHL. BUT again he was a 2OA behind Dahlin. He never needed minors after the draft. We are not talking that kind of talent here. They are going to pan out no matter what 95/100. To them is way less relevant where to play. And then as already mentioned there is a 1OA Yakupov still.
Sergachyov remains the only one Russian who somewhat proves your point. Somewaht as a 8OA defenceman he also was pretty much a top tier talent. And it was discussed another thousand times there's huge difference between russan forwards and defencemen development. You can easily look it up in my post history. I am a strong proponent of russian forwards developing at home until the age of 21-25 depending on their development progress and talent level. I am way more ambivalent when it comes to defencemen as I do see that Russia struggles to develop defencemen properly.
All in all even for non-Russians your list falls apart. And most importatntly I can give you a sheer endless list of Russians who prove the exact opposite of your point, the ones who were top6 players on russain junior NTs before the draft and then their development in NA reders them borderline minor leaguers in Russia(That is what Kostin looks like right now and it angers me because he had the talent) or career AHLers.
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Euros very obviously do adapt much easier. At least to the language and culture. Heck, nearly all young Swedes speak nearly perfect English. What is there to not understand? And that is not going into significant difference in hockey schools approches.
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Fogelhund
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Buchnevich came over at 20... doesn't prove your point at all. Vasilesky at 21... I mean it's funny.
Good players develop well, no matter where they are from.. poor players don't.
Fogelhund
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So, what you are saying, is that from an early age, Russians don't develop their players, to be able to adapt, learn language and culture, and have the wrong hockey school approach? Seems this is an issue with young Russian development then.
Try following the discussion before making ignorant comments really.
Buchnevich came over at 20, not at 17, not at 18 and as a accomplished KHL player(which he did not become right away btw). That is proving my point exactly.
Vasilevskiy came over at 21 as an accomplished KHL player as well. That proves my point every bit. You going into denial won't help your cause.
Not good players, but unique supertalents(who usually go first or second overall) become stars no matter where they develop, because it's just harder to butcher their development(the Oilers are true champs at that with Yakupov) than not to.
Not poor, but the not so good players, who go in later in the first of in later rounds are a different story, the main point of the discussion here and immensely important to building a successful team. Again, you don't need a lot of talent, brain and scouting greatness to draft in the top3-top5, but what makes the difference is how you draft and develop the players from later on in the draft. The Oliers again are perfect proof for that. I personally once looked up their picks beyond their top pick every draft lately and the reason why they fail as a team became very apparent. Their ratio of having success with later picks was atrocious, while succesful teams usually had some late 1st, 2nd and even 3rd and later rounds picks on their rosters. Developing those players is crucial for getting ahead of competition. While it does not serve any of my purposes, my point is the NHL teams looking for success should pay attention to what works best for their prospects, i.e. in this case for russian prospects it's very obvious, that even a late round pick(or even an undrafted player) can develop into a solid to great NHLer when developing in Russia at a good rate, while the much higher picks who develop in NA tend to fail way too often. Especially those who go through the CHL, i.e. those who leave Russia at 17-18 to spend multiple seasons in the CHL. The thing is NHL teams seem to have noticed by now as evidenced by the most recent draft selections. They seem to prefer Russians who develop in Russia. And some NHL orgs are becoming more patient with Russians and don't rush them to come over ASAP.
If you draft a Vasilevskiy or a Svechnikov you nearly can't miss, but getting a guy like Panarin, Gavrikov or Gusev "for free" or nearly for free as a late round pick is what gives your team an extra boost.
It might surprise you, but if you go to a language school they won't teach you hockey.
Yes, in Russia they won't teach you English at a hockey school, nor should they.
Being able to adapt is a very personal thing. Ask Laine, or what was that Swede's name IIRC who had trouble with English. It's not something you could teach. It is just different(you seem to have trouble with that word) environments give you different starting conditions. The further cultures are away, because they are different, the more difficult it is to adapt between them. And yes, russian culture is way more different from the ones in the so called Western World than the cultures within that Western World. And different starting conditions does not mean every single one player will feel comfortable or not, as evidenced by the examples I brought up. There are many different obstacles that may or may not hinder a player adapting.
Your other major problem is you seem to not see the difference between diffrent and wrong. The russian hockey school is different. It teaches a different brand of hockey in a different way and what's not least important on a different schedule. There is reason why every school of any kind teaches you for X years. They have a teaching schedule. They teach you A in year one and B in year 2 and so on. So while essentially all hockey players learn the same game in every country inthe end they might be taught that in different ways and on different schedules. This is why it is important for Russians to finish their hockey education in Russia and not jump ship before the russian school gave them all it could possibly give them. At 17-18 they are coming to Canada and dive into a different brand of hockey and different way of teaching hockey, but their canadian peers are in that system from the get go, they understand it and are already molded by that system to develop the way that system does that. Russians have then to buy into that foreign system without all the preparation and their russian education also remains unfinished. That is why they fail. And it is obviously way more complicated tham just the language barrier and culture shock which of course just adds to the confusion.
The "issue" with young Russians development in Russia is that it has developed numerous not so highly touted prospects into solid to great NHLers, while the CHL route seems to make minor leaguers out of better and best russian prospects all the time.
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I said in the beginning I didn't think Omsk is a good fit, they were already loaded before Kostin came. I thought it would be much better to be in the situation similar to that of a Kravtsov or a Chekhovich where there is alot of opportunity in the top 6. Also I think honestly he did not come over in shape. Coming from the AHL there was a very long offseason, he did not start training in the summer as the other KHL players were and his upcoming situation and season had uncertainty because of Covid. Obviously it should be on the player to stay in shape, but if he is looking gassed and slow ( which Kostin is not ) , then I highly doubt he is near game shape right now.
TK 421
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Kostin picked the slowest possible development path when he insisted on playing AHL hockey as an 18 year old because he 'wanted to play against men'. He had the option to play CHL hockey and like a bing bong he passed it up. Too bad because he already needed a lot of work to get to the NHL and that decision set him back imo. Frankly I'm not sure if he'll ever be able to keep up at the NHL level regardless of which development path he chose.
Yeah, I don’t think it’s good for any 18 year old to play in the AHL, 19 is okay under certain circumstances but there is nothing wrong with playing juniors at 18.
But how to make new Russian kids learn from past mistakes? Young kids keep repeating the same mistakes that countless of older Russian players have done over the years. Like what Ivan Miroshnichenko did this year. An idiotic decision!
How to stop it?
It is obvious that these kids are not smart enough to realize it themselves. Or their agents or their parents. So the higher authorities must come up with something in order to save Russian hockey from losing its most talented players to mediocricy.
Authorities should not be obliged to wipe every stupid parents' arses. We will lose some along the way until even the dumbest parents realise going to Canada at 17 is fun and all, but if they want the kid to have a career in hockey they need to stay put.
Steve Kournianos
@thedraftanalyst
The Blues love Kostin and are happy with his development. Their prospect pool thinned out so there will come a time when he’s needed. Covid has all these kids off track but its temporary.
