OT: Russia/Ukraine and the Washington Capitals thread (mod warning post #1)

[Hint1k]

I don't think NHL needs to revoke all Russian player's visas.
Panarin for example is very well known Putin's critic.
Why would NHL revoke Panarin's visa? For what exactly?

However, NHL most certainly needs to do something with Ovechkin. He was very open and very loud Putin's supporter for years.
I honestly don't remember any other Russian NHLer who made any noticeable effort to support Putin.
While Malkin, Kovalchuk and Bure are all on so called "Putin's team", all of them combined made probably less than 1% of effort Ovehckin made.

Which is why NHL and more importantly Caps should imidiately start doing something about it.
They need to talk to Ovechkin.
He has to make a real statement this time.
Not the bullsh**t he said last time.
He has to make a statement in Russian as well, for people in Russia.
If he refuses than send him back to Russia and take away all his NHL awards.

For those who do not know why he needs to make a statement in Russian:
The mass media in Russia are all controlled by Putin for almost 20 years now.
Most Russian people don't understand English and watch and read news only in Russian.
So they simply believe all sorts of lies Putin tells them on TV.
And they watched Ovechkin supporting Putin's lies.
Now they have to see that they were deceived.

 

[g00n]

I don't think it really matters if Ovechkin knew it was propaganda or not. He has been actively supporting Putin for decades and posed for the campaign to smear Ukraine while Russia was actively annexing parts of it against international law. It is clear to me that Ovechkin is an active member in all this - not a victim nor even neutral - so playing the dumb card or claiming ignorance doesn't really work when shit hits the fan with full force. No matter how dumb or ignorant you might actually be.

I don't know what Kuznetsov or Samsonov make of all this, but my opinion is that those people who took a neutral and non-political stance before shouldn't be punished. At the very least those people who have denounced Putin before (and got harassed for it) shouldn't be touched in any way or form (e.g. Panarin). Ovechkin fits neither of those categories.

I don't think you really read what I posted. There was a LOT of disinformation. Something like 70% of Russians supported Putin because of his propaganda in 2014. It's right there in the article. And I notice you liked the post above someone else made describing how complete Putin's control on Russian media is.

It's about reasonable expectations for the time period. Looking back without context is presentism. And assuming Russians have access to the same info we have here is a bit ethnocentric.

You can take hard line all you want. It doesn't change the fact that people get lied to by leaders they trust.

Again, the question is whether or not they learn from mistakes. That's still undecided.

Can you personally guarantee Ovechkin's family will be safe?

 

[Peeri]

He will never condemn President Putin's actions, why? Because he and most of the Russians think he is right. It would suicidal for him to take the "wrong side" in this debacle, if he plans to go home to Russia after his career in Washington is done. I'm sure he has plans to be part of hockey community there and you don't get there by being the outsider.

 

[Ovechkins Wodka]

Can we not have a Alexander Ovechkin hate thread on the Washington Capitals fan board that is mostly other fans coming to gang up on our captain

 

[Hanji]

I don't think you really read what I posted. There was a LOT of disinformation. Something like 70% of Russians supported Putin because of his propaganda in 2014. It's right there in the article. And I notice you liked the post above someone else made describing how complete Putin's control on Russian media is.

It's about reasonable expectations for the time period. Looking back without context is presentism. And assuming Russians have access to the same info we have here is a bit ethnocentric.

You can take hard line all you want. It doesn't change the fact that people get lied to by leaders they trust.

Again, the question is whether or not they learn from mistakes. That's still undecided.

Can you personally guarantee Ovechkin's family will be safe?

Nah, the media has some but not a whole lot to do with it. I mean it's not like Russians don't have access to the internet.

I've been traveling to Russia for work for years. This is basic knowledge if you know how things work.
Most Russians supported the 2014 venture into Ukraine. The Donbass is primarily ethnically Russian; it has exceedingly close ties to Russia. A large portion of people actually were pissed Putin didn't go further.

Basically it's the divide between ethnicity and nationality that people in North America have difficulty grasping.

That said, invading the entirety of Ukraine is an entirely different scenario. From communications with co-workers and friends, the Russian population is in shock what's happening. This was never expected. Generally speaking the populace is still trying the grasp the reality of what they're doing and what the world is hitting them with. Putin is losing support by the second.

 

[Ovie's Neighbor]

So are we going to revoke visas now for people who live in countries that commit war crimes? So no Chinese players allowed in any professional sports due their genocide of Muslims? What about Turkish players who don’t speak out against Erdogan? Is this really the precedent we want to set?

 

[g00n]

Nah, the media has some but not a whole lot to do with it. I mean it's not like Russians don't have access to the intenet.

I've been traveling to Russia for work for years. This is basic knowledge if you know how things work.
Most Russian supported the 2014 thing. Novorossiya, DPR, etc. The Donbass is mainly ethnically Russian; it has exceedingly close ties to Russia. A large portion of people actually were pissed Putin didn't go further.

Basically it's the divide between ethnicity and nationality that people in North America have difficulty grasping.

That said, invading the East/entire country is an entirely different scenario. From communications with co-workers and friends I have there, people are in shock what's happening. This was never expected. Generally speaking the populace is still trying the grasp the reality it what's hitting them.

Yeah well access to the internet is more often a worsening factor than a clarifying one these days. Disinfo spreads there faster and more pervasively than anywhere else. And part of the Russian strategy is to muddy the waters with conflicting information. We've seen this here in the US for so many topics, and it's caused a lot of damage.

I think the "shock" you're talking about factors into it for any Russian citizen. To start harassing Ovechkin less than 24 hours after the invasion, as many did, was not entirely fair.

I hope Ovie comes out against more than just the invasion eventually but you never know.

 

[g00n]

So are we going to revoke visas now for people who live in countries that commit war crimes? So no Chinese players allowed in any professional sports due their genocide of Muslims? What about Turkish players who don’t speak out against Erdogan? Is this really the precedent we want to set?

The OP of this thread was asked for confirmation of this visa claim and it hasn't been provided.

 

[Hanji]

Yeah well access to the internet is more often a worsening factor than a clarifying one these days. Disinfo spreads there faster and more pervasively than anywhere else. And part of the Russian strategy is to muddy the waters with conflicting information. We've seen this here in the US for so many topics, and it's caused a lot of damage.

I think the "shock" you're talking about factors into it for any Russian citizen. To start harassing Ovechkin less than 24 hours after the invasion, as many did, was not entirely fair.

I hope Ovie comes out against more than just the invasion eventually but you never know.

Agree. But the point I'm making is Russia is NOT North Korea. Of course propaganda is heavy, but people aren't restricted to only one-sided information.

Basically, Putinism in Russia is the equvalent of Trumpism here; particularly in the South. Russia is exceedingly socially conservative and patriotic. This is the basis for Putin's popularity. St. Pete and Moscow are where he's least popular.

That said, I'm not here to bash Ovechkin. She should be able to say and believe what he wants without retribution, or people using him to virtue signal.

 

[g00n]

Agree. But the point I'm making is Russia is NOT North Korea. Of course propaganda is heavy, but people aren't restricted to only one-sided information.

Basically, Putinism in Russia is the equvalent of Trumpism here; particularly in the South. Russia is exceedingly socially conservative and patriotic. This is the basis for Putin's popularity. St. Pete and Moscow are where he's least popular.

That said, I'm not here to bash Ovechkin. She should be able to say and believe what he wants without retribution, or people using him to virtue signal.

Understand your point. Agree in general. My point is that having open access to the full scope of the internet doesn't guarantee you'll land on the truth, and that the Russian disinfo campaigns have been largely successful for the last 8 or so years, generally taking advantage of this type of environment.

It's not a logical bubble like NK create for themselves but it does turn into a philosophical and practical bubble due to filtering, algorithms, and confirmation bias. RU has been gaming that hard.

 

[IafrateOvie34]

So are we going to revoke visas now for people who live in countries that commit war crimes? So no Chinese players allowed in any professional sports due their genocide of Muslims? What about Turkish players who don’t speak out against Erdogan? Is this really the precedent we want to set?

One thing for sure it will be a disaster for the NHL if the league chooses to not let Russian players play and a extremely idiotic move.

 

[Ovie's Neighbor]

Agree. But the point I'm making is Russia is NOT North Korea. Of course propaganda is heavy, but people aren't restricted to only one-sided information.

Basically, Putinism in Russia is the equvalent of Trumpism here; particularly in the South. Russia is exceedingly socially conservative and patriotic. This is the basis for Putin's popularity. St. Pete and Moscow are where he's least popular.

That said, I'm not here to bash Ovechkin. She should be able to say and believe what he wants without retribution, or people using him to virtue signal.

I agree that many Russians are willfully ignorant and many definitely support Putin. But I do not think that is a fair comparison because speaking out against Trump didn’t land you in jail or the grave.

 

[Hanji]

Understand your point. Agree in general. My point is that having open access to the full scope of the internet doesn't guarantee you'll land on the truth, and that the Russian disinfo campaigns have been largely successful for the last 8 or so years, generally taking advantage of this type of environment.

It's not a logical bubble like NK create for themselves but it does turn into a philosophical and practical bubble due to filtering, algorithms, and confirmation bias. RU has been gaming that hard.

Totally agree with that. Everybody has more information at their fingertips, but it's human nature search only for info that validates one's confirmation bias. This is where propaganda explodes. Within this context Russia has been very good formulating a sense of victimhood within it's population.

Nonetheless, Russia's 2014 Ukrainian adventure was gonna garner mass support regardless; propoganda or not. These were ethnic Russians. The West may not have liked it, but Ovechkin's support was par-for-the-course in Russia.
But this current invasion is completely different. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

 

[Hanji]

I agree that many Russians are willfully ignorant and many definitely support Putin. But I do not think that is a fair comparison because speaking out against Trump didn’t land you in jail or the grave.

Thing is, speaking out against Putin is not a black and white proposition. There's a giant grey area one can maneuver within in regards to this.

Go to any bar in Moscow, people shit on Putin all the time.
99% of protesters are completely safe. What the gov does is arrest a few to make a point to the population. Put some doubt in the population's mind about doing it.
It's these scenes that are splattered around Western media for our own propaganda purposes and we henceforth think all Russian protesters are subject to this.

In regards to Ovi, I suspect if he speaks out against Putin his post-NHL career is over in Russia. Considering his popularity/influence he could get any position he wants in Russia's Hockey Federation.
But threats to himself or his family for speaking out? Gimme a break.

 

[g00n]

Thing is, speaking out against Putin is not a black and white proposition. There's a giant grey area one can maneuver within in regards to this.

Go to any bar in Moscow, people shit on Putin all the time.
99% of protesters are completely safe. What the gov does is arrest a few to make a point to the population. Put some doubt in the population's mind about doing it.
It's these scenes that are splattered around Western media for our own propaganda purposes and we henceforth think all Russian protesters are subject to this.

In regards to Ovi, I suspect if he speaks out against Putin his post-NHL career is over in Russia. Considering his popularity/influence he could get any position he wants in Russia's Hockey Federation.
But threats to himself or his family for speaking out? Gimme a break.

Threats would not have to come from state officials. They could come from citizens or others who are upset or otherwise negatively impacted.

Famous and rich people have body guards and high end security systems for a reason. That gets amplified in a politically charged environment. Especially if a political connection is seen as contributing to someone's hardship, as may be the case if the RU economy tanks.

 

[Ovie's Neighbor]

Thing is, speaking out against Putin is not a black and white proposition. There's a giant grey area one can maneuver within in regards to this.

Go to any bar in Moscow, people shit on Putin all the time.
99% of protesters are completely safe. What the gov does is arrest a few to make a point to the population. Put some doubt in the population's mind about doing it.
It's these scenes that are splattered around Western media for our own propaganda purposes and we henceforth think all Russian protesters are subject to this.

In regards to Ovi, I suspect if he speaks out against Putin his post-NHL career is over in Russia. Considering his popularity/influence he could get any position he wants in Russia's Hockey Federation.
But threats to himself or his family for speaking out? Gimme a break.

Ok and it’s easy to be a keyboard warrior and say if you were in his position you would give that all up. And I’m not just talking about OV I’m talking about your average Russian citizen. Sure they will shit on the regime behind closed doors but will they do it publicly. Many are far too scared and for a good reason.

 

[SpinningEdge]

Morally - super messed up to send people back.

however, the best way for war to end is within. The sanctions, etc will even hurt billionaires who are usually shield proof - and Moscow has almost as many billionaires as New York City.

Look at Epstein and associates. The power people eliminated any chance of any info getting out. Billionaire or the very rich rarely get that way by “playing nice” or “doing the morally right things”.

there’s talk about sending Russian students back too. I think it’s wrong - but if it happens I see the reasoning (even tho i disagree with it).

if parents are outraged bc their kids are stuck, rich athletes are outraged being stuck, billionaires outraged - etc - all while Russia’s economy fails with rest of world basically blacklisting everything Russian - the biggest threat and worry for Putin won’t be his enemy countries - it will be behind his back.

that being said this totally sucks. Remember, in war the elites rarely have anything happen to them - it’s almost always the innocent that get hurt the most.

I think a lot of millennials are going to learn how nasty war is. It’s not a situation of what’s fair and what’s right. People wanting to shoot your head off don’t care if you’re trying to cancel them & war is a very dark and nasty place - usually led by dark and nasty people.

whole situation sucks and I feel terribly bad for ovechkin and others.

Ovechkin, Russian students, and the 60 year old Russian grandmother who sells piroshki in your town did not invade UKraine. Remember that. No need to be assholes to them. They deserve kindness just like your American neighbor.

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

Can we not have a Alexander Ovechkin hate thread on the Washington Capitals fan board that is mostly other fans coming to gang up on our captain

I'm cleaning up the political / off-topic stuff. The other stuff is permitted (for now) so long as it relates to hockey and how it could affect the sport and the Caps moving forward.

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

He has not supported the invasion of ukraine, but he has trashed ukraine in 2014. Look at slava malamud's twitter posts today. While I realize he does have and always had an agenda against ovechkin... he does offer some pretty damaging statements made by ovechkin in the past.

Not exactly sure how to feel he could have changed his opinion since then, but in the past he has parroted putin's stance.

I'm not getting in this debate but Slava Malamud has had an axe to grind for two decades. His opinion and what he posts should be taken in that context.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Agent: Russian NHL players harassed, threatened

 

[um]

I think a lot of millennials are going to learn how nasty war is.

I don’t understand this point. It’s not like this is the first war in the 21st century.

at this point the US or Canada (my country) aren’t even in the war.

Anyways I agree with your overall points.

 

[Peeri]

I don’t understand this point. It’s not like this is the first war in the 21st century.

at this point the US or Canada (my country) aren’t even in the war.

Anyways I agree with your overall points.

This is the first war that is literally broadcasted online in real time. If you scroll through some of these newer social platforms (TikTok etc.) you can find a lot of pretty nasty stuff there, when the war was starting there were paratroopers live streaming their jumps into ukraine, pretty surreal with young audience watching while they were being shot at. Never in history have teenagers and young adults been exposed to such stuff.

 

[PlushMinus]

Would be an interesting image seeing Ovechkin lifting the cup as captain at these circumstances

You clearly haven't been watching the Caps play. There is NO chance in hell he's going to be lifting another Cup anytime soon

 

[um]

This is the first war that is literally broadcasted online in real time. If you scroll through some of these newer social platforms (TikTok etc.) you can find a lot of pretty nasty stuff there, when the war was starting there were paratroopers live streaming their jumps into ukraine, pretty surreal with young audience watching while they were being shot at. Never in history have teenagers and young adults been exposed to such stuff.

I don’t know, I recall watching 9/11 in grade 3.

Since then we’ve seen atrocities in Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq, China, Israel/Palestine, Yemen, etc.

I’m not trying to downplay the seriousness of this invasion. I’m just saying it’s not the first war of the 21st century.

 

[um]

You clearly haven't been watching the Caps play. There is NO chance in hell he's going to be lifting another Cup anytime soon

It’s the NHL playoffs baby, anyone can make a run!