WJC: Russia have phenomenal medals streak (2011-2017)

[Fantomas]

Also this is nonsense:

And the KHL is no different than the Russian League then, it too is a ultimately a domestic League for the benefit of the National Team

 

[Nino33]

You say "Give me a break. There has been plenty of negativism as it is" - I've referred to this thread, that describes things as "phenomenal" (no sign of the negativism you're talking about that I can see, actually the opposite)



And regarding the KHL being just like a National League IMO, the KHL says on it's own website "The League devised the calendar with the interests of Team Russia in mind" http://en.khl.ru/news/2016/03/24/242303.html

And just like decades ago, there's a few top teams and then the rest of the League is far lower in talent/quality

Maybe you see a big difference, I don't



I'm not "against" Russian hockey (I grew up idolizing Russian/European hockey actually), I just find the fanaticism and attempts at "we're phenomenal/we're better" a bit much

 

[Yakushev72]

I didn't refer to 1979-80 I said you had to go back to 1981 to get a winner in best-on-best (which means I'm referring to the last 35 years).

Regarding that 70s/80s era I've seen the players involved say that were treated like children/slaves + they were beating second level competition at the time (as everyone else had their best in the NHL, and nobody was forcing their players into hockey camps for 11 months of training a year)


And the KHL is no different than the Russian League then, it too is a ultimately a domestic League for the benefit of the National Team




In the time period you noted, from a point of view of actually winning, Finland's won more and Sweden's won the same (and both have done so more recently than Russia); my point was simply it seems odd to me how Russian fans celebrating "not winning" (and I don't see fans of other countries doing the same on the HFBoards)




These seem like excuses to me (and I think the clashing egos issue has been the primary issue for decades now, long before the KHL was created)

Before I assess the quality of your response, how is it that you Canucks never mention the 1979 Challenge Cup as a best-on-best victory for the Soviets? How is it that arguably the BEST Canadian best-on-best team ever assembled was literally stomped - absolutely crushed - by the Soviets, so much so that you all seem to have sought medical assistance to have it repressed from your memory. It was in mid-season (obviously, the mid-season break), in North America, and with Canadian refs in 2 of the 3 games. Couldn't have had more advantages lined up your way, and yet a 6-0 horsewhipping in the money match. Is therapy to repress the memory ongoing?

As for the rest of your response, I tried to offer a sober assessment of the differences between the Soviet era and now, and of progress in resurrecting hockey as a sport in Russia, but all I got in response was your anti-Russian rant. You never intended to discuss the state of Russian hockey, only to get a few shots in to show people how you feel about Russia. Go for it, its a free forum!

 

[Nino33]

how is it that you Canucks never mention the 1979 Challenge Cup as a best-on-best victory for the Soviets? How is it that arguably the BEST Canadian best-on-best team ever assembled was literally stomped - absolutely crushed - by the Soviets, so much so that you all seem to have sought medical assistance to have it repressed from your memory. It was in mid-season (obviously, the mid-season break), in North America, and with Canadian refs in 2 of the 3 games. Couldn't have had more advantages lined up your way, and yet a 6-0 horsewhipping in the money match. Is therapy to repress the memory ongoing?

#1 I don't pretend to know your nationality, not sure how you "know" mine (nor do I understand how you think your blatant one-sided attack/rant proves your views) #2 the 1979 Challenge Cup wasn't mentioned previously because it didn't connect to the WJC or the view that "phenomenal success" and "better than the European counterparts" was odd to some given the lack of actual victories #3 the Russian National team beat NHLers (including Borje Salming) not Team Canada, but undoubtedly they were mostly Canadian and undoubtedly the Russians easily won the 3rd game (your comments about medical assistance/repressed memories and best ever Canada lineup are all brand new to me...never seen such comments about the Challenge Cup before + they're childish hyperbole that weaken your expressed opinions not support them)

As for the rest of your response, I tried to offer a sober assessment of the differences between the Soviet era and now, and of progress in resurrecting hockey as a sport in Russia, but all I got in response was your anti-Russian rant. You never intended to discuss the state of Russian hockey, only to get a few shots in to show people how you feel about Russia. Go for it, its a free forum!

I don't need your "sober assessment" (seems more like biased ranting to me); IMO the "state of Russian hockey" is it's nowhere near as good as some Russians think (and thus the need to glory in not winning) #4 this response of yours shows your "sober assessment of others responses" is anything but (your extreme bias is obvious)

I didn't call Russia "phenomenal" (that was the OP) and I didn't say they were better than others in Europe (that would be you), nor did I talk at all about Canada or the US and their success or lack of success (I just mentioned that in NA not winning is not considered success, as others did) - a simple point that is apparently unacceptable to some, and requires hyperbolic attacking responses


EDIT - The obvious reason why I didn't mention the 1979 Challenge Cup is because my reference was to Russia's last victory in best-on-best which was in 1981 not 1979...to talk about 1979 I would have to have been unaware/incorrect on what Team Canada means and when Russia's last best-on-best victory (by the way, I consider the 1981 victory a much bigger victory for Russia than the 1979 Challenge Cup victory; I really have never heard the 1979 Challenge Cup team being considered a "best ever" Canada team (or best ever NHL team) - for that era and Canada, typically that's been the 1976 Canada Cup team)

 

[Yakushev72]

#1 I don't pretend to know your nationality, not sure how you "know" mine (nor do I understand how you think your blatant one-sided attack/rant proves your views) #2 the 1979 Challenge Cup wasn't mentioned previously because it didn't connect to the WJC or the view that "phenomenal success" and "better than the European counterparts" was odd to some given the lack of actual victories #3 the Russian National team beat NHLers (including Borje Salming) not Team Canada, but undoubtedly they were mostly Canadian and undoubtedly the Russians easily won the 3rd game (your comments about medical assistance/repressed memories and best ever Canada lineup are all brand new to me...never seen such comments about the Challenge Cup before + they're childish hyperbole that weaken your expressed opinions not support them)




I don't need your "sober assessment" (seems more like biased ranting to me); IMO the "state of Russian hockey" is it's nowhere near as good as some Russians think (and thus the need to glory in not winning) #4 this response of yours shows your "sober assessment of others responses" is anything but (your extreme bias is obvious)

I didn't call Russia "phenomenal" (that was the OP) and I didn't say they were better than others in Europe (that would be you), nor did I talk at all about Canada or the US and their success or lack of success (I just mentioned that in NA not winning is not considered success, as others did) - a simple point that is apparently unacceptable to some, and requires hyperbolic attacking responses



EDIT - The obvious reason why I didn't mention the 1979 Challenge Cup is because my reference was to Russia's last victory in best-on-best which was in 1981 not 1979...to talk about 1979 I would have to have been unaware/incorrect on what Team Canada means and when Russia's last best-on-best victory (by the way, I consider the 1981 victory a much bigger victory for Russia than the 1979 Challenge Cup victory; I really have never heard the 1979 Challenge Cup team being considered a "best ever" Canada team (or best ever NHL team) - for that era and Canada, typically that's been the 1976 Canada Cup team)

The reason that I referred to you as a "Canuck" was that you list your location as Edmonton, Alberta, and for your Country, you selected the Maple Leaf flag in red and white colors. If you are a Russian, you threw me off with those designations.

The Soviets only participated in 3 series that could be recognized as best-on-best: (1) the 1972 Summit Series, (2) the 1979 Challenge Cup, and (3) the 1981 Canada Cup. Had the Soviets been able to hold Canada off the score sheet in the last 34 seconds of Game 8, they would have won the 1972 Series on total goals, and they would have won all of the best-on-best Series' that they participated in. The Soviets sent B teams to the 1976 and 1991 Canada Cups, and the 1984-87 Canada Cups did not qualify as best-on-best because they failed to meet minimum standards for equal
competition.

You may not be aware that the Soviet Union ceased to exist as an entity in 1991. I won't go into all that involved, but suffice it to say that it was the end of the Soviet era. The main similarity between Soviet teams and Russian teams is that the vast majority of Soviet players originated from the Russian Republic. After that, the similarities more or less end.

 

[Yakushev72]

You say "Give me a break. There has been plenty of negativism as it is" - I've referred to this thread, that describes things as "phenomenal" (no sign of the negativism you're talking about that I can see, actually the opposite)



And regarding the KHL being just like a National League IMO, the KHL says on it's own website "The League devised the calendar with the interests of Team Russia in mind" http://en.khl.ru/news/2016/03/24/242303.html

And just like decades ago, there's a few top teams and then the rest of the League is far lower in talent/quality

Maybe you see a big difference, I don't



I'm not "against" Russian hockey (I grew up idolizing Russian/European hockey actually), I just find the fanaticism and attempts at "we're phenomenal/we're better" a bit much

Your quote about "devising the calendar" only means that the season ends in time for league members to participate in the World Championships. In addition to Russia, KHL players are citizens of Canada, the United States, Sweden, Finland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Switzerland, Slovenia, Germany, Denmark, Norway, and on and on.

 

[NyQuil]

The Soviets only participated in 3 series that could be recognized as best-on-best: (1) the 1972 Summit Series, (2) the 1979 Challenge Cup, and (3) the 1981 Canada Cup. Had the Soviets been able to hold Canada off the score sheet in the last 34 seconds of Game 8, they would have won the 1972 Series on total goals, and they would have won all of the best-on-best Series' that they participated in. The Soviets sent B teams to the 1976 and 1991 Canada Cups, and the 1984-87 Canada Cups did not qualify as best-on-best because they failed to meet minimum standards for equal
competition.

This is good stuff right here.

Game 8 only was possible because Kharlamov was injured anyway.

And in 1980, that shouldn't count because Tretiak was pulled against all conventional hockey wisdom.

So realistically, the Soviets have never been beaten ever.

 

[patnyrnyg]

The reason that I referred to you as a "Canuck" was that you list your location as Edmonton, Alberta, and for your Country, you selected the Maple Leaf flag in red and white colors. If you are a Russian, you threw me off with those designations.

The Soviets only participated in 3 series that could be recognized as best-on-best: (1) the 1972 Summit Series, (2) the 1979 Challenge Cup, and (3) the 1981 Canada Cup. Had the Soviets been able to hold Canada off the score sheet in the last 34 seconds of Game 8, they would have won the 1972 Series on total goals, and they would have won all of the best-on-best Series' that they participated in. The Soviets sent B teams to the 1976 and 1991 Canada Cups, and the 1984-87 Canada Cups did not qualify as best-on-best because they failed to meet minimum standards for equal
competition.

You may not be aware that the Soviet Union ceased to exist as an entity in 1991. I won't go into all that involved, but suffice it to say that it was the end of the Soviet era. The main similarity between Soviet teams and Russian teams is that the vast majority of Soviet players originated from the Russian Republic. After that, the similarities more or less end.

How was the 84, 87, and 91 Canada Cups not best on best?

 

[Yakushev72]

How was the 84, 87, and 91 Canada Cups not best on best?

As I mentioned, in 1991, the Soviets sent a B team to the Canada Cup, with NHL players like Fetisov, Makarov, Krutov, Larionov, etc., unavailable to play. To be best-on-best, each team must have its best. In 1984, after the Soviets beat Canada 6-3 in the preliminary round, Alan Eagleson, Canadian owner of the Canada Cup tournament, held a post-game news conference firing Dag Olsson of Sweden from his referee position, and decreeing that European referees would no longer be allowed to work medal round games. After that, referees for Semi-final and Final games were chosen based solely on loyalty to Canada, thereby taking the Canada Cup out of consideration as a best-on-best tournament.

 

[patnyrnyg]

As I mentioned, in 1991, the Soviets sent a B team to the Canada Cup, with NHL players like Fetisov, Makarov, Krutov, Larionov, etc., unavailable to play. To be best-on-best, each team must have its best. In 1984, after the Soviets beat Canada 6-3 in the preliminary round, Alan Eagleson, Canadian owner of the Canada Cup tournament, held a post-game news conference firing Dag Olsson of Sweden from his referee position, and decreeing that European referees would no longer be allowed to work medal round games. After that, referees for Semi-final and Final games were chosen based solely on loyalty to Canada, thereby taking the Canada Cup out of consideration as a best-on-best tournament.

I do remember them sending the younger players, but why were they unavailable? In that case, Canada didn't have Bobby Orr in 72 and still won. Then again, he wasn't really that good, so missing him is like saying the 2014 Olympic Tournament wasn't best on best because Tom Poti didnt play for the US.

Yeah, that does not take away from 84 and 87 being best on best, but spin it anyway you want. Just hope that Washington and Pitt get knocked out in the first round this year and maybe Russia will have a shot to win that silly tourney in May.

 

[Zine]

As I mentioned, in 1991, the Soviets sent a B team to the Canada Cup, with NHL players like Fetisov, Makarov, Krutov, Larionov, etc., unavailable to play. To be best-on-best, each team must have its best. In 1984, after the Soviets beat Canada 6-3 in the preliminary round, Alan Eagleson, Canadian owner of the Canada Cup tournament, held a post-game news conference firing Dag Olsson of Sweden from his referee position, and decreeing that European referees would no longer be allowed to work medal round games. After that, referees for Semi-final and Final games were chosen based solely on loyalty to Canada, thereby taking the Canada Cup out of consideration as a best-on-best tournament.

1984 was a scam with Eagleson changing the rules in the middle of the tournament to benefit Canada. The guy was a 100% **** bag.

Biased reffing aside, 1987 was legit. We sent our best knowing full well what we were up against and in for. No use complaining.

1991 is an interesting case as half our team refused to participate. I dunno, would Canadians consider a tourney to be 'best v best' if half of Canada's "A" players refused to participate? Hmmm....

 

[Fantomas]

In terms of pure entertainment, WJC is still #1 for me. And I love that time of the year.

 

[Fantomas]

1984 was a scam with Eagleson changing the rules in the middle of the tournament to benefit Canada. The guy was a 100% **** bag.

Biased reffing aside, 1987 was legit.

It was a scam, just like the previous one.

 

[Yakushev72]

1984 was a scam with Eagleson changing the rules in the middle of the tournament to benefit Canada. The guy was a 100% **** bag.

Biased reffing aside, 1987 was legit. We sent our best knowing full well what we were up against and in for. No use complaining.

1991 is an interesting case as half our team refused to participate. I dunno, would Canadians consider a tourney to be 'best v best' if half of Canada's "A" players refused to participate? Hmmm....

Only NA refs allowed in the 1987 medal round, same as in 1984. The choice was Don Koharski, the Canadian, or the American referee, easily the worst of all time (I can't recall his name at the moment). The most important element of a best-on-best is fair and equal competition. Even with the rink tilted toward Canada, the 3-game championship series was settled by a last minute goal in Game 3. The Soviets clearly had a chance to win with a fair deal.

 

[Backami]

I don't know. There is just one gold. And actual NHL stars are those who won in 2011. After that I can't say that we had top players.

Give some time, Tarasenko and co are 25 already but later generation is just 19...

based by first appearances
2011
Panarin

Zaitsev, Tarasenko, Kuznetsov and Orlov made their first debut in 2010 but not in 2011.

2012
Vasilevsky
Kucherov
Gusev (definitely one of the top players in KHL)
Nesterov

2013
Nichuskin (still have a time, Panarin became one of the top players in KHL just at age 23)

2014
Buchnevich is on his way to the top
Zadorov
Tryamkin

2015
Sorokin
Shestyorkin
Provorov

2016
Samsonov
Kaprizov