Roy, Hasek, Brodeur = untouchables?

[Frank Drebin]

Lundqvist on better teams could have went down as one of the greats.

 

[GrkFlyersFan]

This is more of a false narrative. They may not have been like the previous Devils teams, but still very much a strong team. Especially defensively. That year they had the lowest GA in the league with the best PK. Brodeur was a part of a team that didn’t allow a lot of shots against him and was built to be defensively aware.

Yes, not as good as 2000 or even '95, but definitely better than the '93 Habs.

 

[SladeWilson23]

As I recall, Niedermayer finished ahead of Brodeur in the voting, and calm down, two of those were 16 saves.

No doubt Niedermayer was a beast. Also for goalies, fewer shots =/= easier.

 

[SladeWilson23]

Yes, not as good as 2000 or even '95, but definitely better than the '93 Habs.

The 93 Habs definitely had more talent than the 2003 Devils.

 

[SladeWilson23]

So ironic that people say Brodeur was a product of the system / trap. His puck handling abilities were the most important part of the system...

Brodeur's overall athleticism is what made the system. No coach would implement a system solely around a goalie's ability to handle the puck. His puck handling was definitely a big part, but his ability to make those athletic saves needed in case the trap failed is what made the system great. As I said, Brodeur was one of the best goalies on breakaways and odd man rushes.

 

[koyvoo]

Literally every defenseman on the 93 Habs team was like 22-23 years old.

Montreal Canadiens 1992-93 roster and scoring statistics at hockeydb.com

 

[GrkFlyersFan]

No doubt Niedermayer was a beast. Also for goalies, fewer shots =/= easier.

He was not better than Giguere who carried an even worse team(even you can concede that) that had no business getting out of the first round. 15 years later every Devils fan I know is still salty about this, probably because it's the only thing Brodeur never won.

 

[SladeWilson23]

He was not better than Giguere who carried an even worse team(even you can concede that) that had no business getting out of the first round. 15 years later every Devils fan I know is still salty about this, probably because it's the only thing Brodeur never won.

I'm not salty about it. I understand why Giguere won. However it doesn't change the fact Brodeur was incredibly unlucky in 2003 because he did have a Conn Smythe performance in those playoffs. He had no control over what Giguere did.

Funny thing about Giguere's run is that the best teams he faced in those playoffs were Detroit and Dallas, and not the Devils.

 

[SladeWilson23]

Literally every defenseman on the 93 Habs team was like 22-23 years old.

Montreal Canadiens 1992-93 roster and scoring statistics at hockeydb.com

Devils did not have a single player in the top 50 in scoring in 2003 while the Habs had 3 players in the top 50 in 1993.

 

[GrkFlyersFan]

I'm not salty about it. I understand why Giguere won. However it doesn't change the fact Brodeur was incredibly unlucky in 2003 because he did have a Conn Smythe performance in those playoffs. He had no control over what Giguere did.

Funny thing about Giguere's run is that the best teams he faced in those playoffs were Detroit and Dallas, and not the Devils.

I agree. Detroit had won the Cup the year before, and Dallas was still stacked at the time. The Devils actually had a pretty easy road that year.

 

[GrkFlyersFan]

Devils did not have a single player in the top 50 in scoring in 2003 while the Habs had 3 players in the top 50 in 1993.

And how about the defense?

 

[koyvoo]

Devils did not have a single player in the top 50 in scoring in 2003 while the Habs had 3 players in the top 50 in 1993.

If you’re looking at rosters built properly to win a Stanley Cup, I think a roster with literally an average age of 22 for their entire defence core would still look less likely to be able to do it.

 

[SladeWilson23]

I agree. Detroit had won the Cup the year before, and Dallas was still stacked at the time. The Devils actually had a pretty easy road that year.

Yes we did. Ottawa was a beastly team, but Boston and Tampa weren't that great. Another thing not being mentioned is that the "bad" Ducks team still managed to take the Devils to 7 games without Giguere playing as well as he did in the first 3 rounds. So how good could the 03 Devils had been if they still needed the full 7 to beat such a bad team?

And how about the defense?

Outside of Niedermayer (who was a total beast) and Rafalski, who exactly stood out? Stevens was playing on adrenaline and on his decline, and then you had Colin White, Oleg Tverdovsky, and then had Daneyko and Albelin swapping in and out who were both well on their way out.

If you’re looking at rosters built properly to win a Stanley Cup, I think a roster with literally an average age of 22 for their entire defende core would still look less likely to be able to do it.

Perhaps, but look at some of the names on that defense. Eric Deasjardins, Mathieu Schneider, Lyle Odelein, Patrice Brisebois.

 

[koyvoo]

Perhaps, but look at some of the names on that defense. Eric Deasjardins, Mathieu Schneider, Lyle Odelein, Patrice Brisebois.[/QUOTE]

Ya but the point is those names had not yet become anywhere nearly established as they would be. They were all still developing an NHL game.

 

[GrkFlyersFan]

Yes we did. Ottawa was a beastly team, but Boston and Tampa weren't that great. Another thing not being mentioned is that the "bad" Ducks team still managed to take the Devils to 7 games without Giguere playing as well as he did in the first 3 rounds. So how good could the 03 Devils had been if they still needed the full 7 to beat such a bad team?



Outside of Niedermayer (who was a total beast) and Rafalski, who exactly stood out? Stevens was playing on adrenaline and on his decline, and then you had Colin White, Oleg Tverdovsky, and then had Daneyko and Albelin swapping in and out who were both well on their way out.



Perhaps, but look at some of the names on that defense. Eric Deasjardins, Mathieu Schneider, Lyle Odelein, Patrice Brisebois.

Stevens was still great, and there wasn't a weak spot on that D. Stevens being hurt in '04 is why we(Flyers) breezed past the Devils. That's before you realize those forwards that couldn't score all played good defense, too. If I wasn't so sure it would get moved to the History section, I'd be confident in starting a poll and people would handily say the '03 Devils were a much better team than the '93 Habs.

 

[GreatGonzo]

They definitely were worse than any of the SC teams Roy played on.



You're right, Brodeur had a W-L of 30-35 in the playoffs from 2004 through 2012. He did tail off, but I doubt a peak Roy would have done much with the post lockout Devils. I also do believe Brodeur at 40 was the MVP of the 2012 run for the Devils.

My entire point is that it isn't so cut and dry. I don't see this clear gap between the two like you do.

Does that matter? They weren’t mediocre and that is my point. They weren’t any better than the ‘93 Habs. Those devils teams were some of the best defensive teams during that time, all while having some years as being near the top offensively.


We can speculate all we want but in the end a majority of the Hockey community see Roy as one, if not the greatest goalie of all time...and that is because of his all around resume. But that shouldn’t be any slight against Brodeur, who, like you have said, is an all time great all around as well. Saying he is behind Roy shouldn’t be a negative.

It is a clear gap, but it doesn’t have to be a huge one. Just a comfortable one like I stated.

 

[SladeWilson23]

Stevens was still great, and there wasn't a weak spot on that D. Stevens being hurt in '04 is why we(Flyers) breezed past the Devils. That's before you realize those forwards that couldn't score all played good defense, too. If I wasn't so sure it would get moved to the History section, I'd be confident in starting a poll and people would handily say the '03 Devils were a much better team than the '93 Habs.

They definitely would, but it doesn't mean they're necessarily right.

 

[SladeWilson23]

Does that matter? They weren’t mediocre and that is my point. They weren’t any better than the ‘93 Habs. Those devils teams were some of the best defensive teams during that time, all while having some years as being near the top offensively.

If the 93 Habs were considered mediocre, and the Devils in 2003 weren't any better than the 93 Habs, what adjective should we use to call the 03 Devils then?

We can speculate all we want but in the end a majority of the Hockey community see Roy as one, if not the greatest goalie of all time...and that is because of his all around resume. But that shouldn’t be any slight against Brodeur, who, like you have said, is an all time great all around as well. Saying he is behind Roy shouldn’t be a negative.

It is a clear gap, but it doesn’t have to be a huge one. Just a comfortable one like I stated.

But the problem is that hockey community is pretty split, and it's not that clear cut.

 

[GreatGonzo]

If the 93 Habs were considered mediocre, and the Devils in 2003 weren't any better than the 93 Habs, what adjective should we use to call the 03 Devils then?



But the problem is that hockey community is pretty split, and it's not that clear cut.

The ‘93 Habs weren’t mediocre, that’s a false statement that some like to put out there. Neither team was.

No it’s pretty clear cut. I have rarely seen anyone put Brodeur ahead of Hasek or Roy. I’m even sure many would have Plante and Sawchuk ahead of Brodeur as well. Doesn’t mean I wouldn’t have Brodeur anywhere between 3-5 all time, but definitely behind Roy and Hasek.

Look no further than our History board even, Roy is #1, Hasek #2.....Brodeur is #6. Is that arguable? Sure, but to say there are mix views or some split opinion on the matter is false.

 

[SladeWilson23]

The ‘93 Habs weren’t mediocre, that’s a false statement that some like to put out there. Neither team was.

Fair enough.

No it’s pretty clear cut. I have rarely seen anyone put Brodeur ahead of Hasek or Roy. I’m even sure many would have Plante and Sawchuk ahead of Brodeur as well. Doesn’t mean I wouldn’t have Brodeur anywhere between 3-5 all time, but definitely behind Roy and Hasek.

Look no further than our History board even, Roy is #1, Hasek #2.....Brodeur is #6. Is that arguable? Sure, but to say there are mix views or some split opinion on the matter is false.

The hockey community outside of HF is pretty split on 5 names (The big 3 along with Sawchuk and Plante). Personally I believe Hall belongs in that mix as well. HFB doesn't even remotely represent the entire hockey community.

 

[kudymen]

Hasek has more longevity that what we tend to remember, he started to play pro at like 16, was great in the playoff with Chicago in 90-91 and was still a .925% with a 2.09 GAA at 41 with the Senator in 2005-2006 a team that was around .900 like the league average when he was not in the net, chance are good they would have won the cup if Hasek does not get injured.

The number do seem to indicate that if is style created goal most other starter would not have gave, he more than made up for it for all the goals he prevented that no one else would have.

There is one small fun fact regarding Hašek's longevity.

Not only starting pro at 16 and carrying the Sens at the age of 41; he also came back after 1 year of retirement to be the goalie in the top Czech league, winning the championship the same year at the age of 45 (!). Despite it being just Czech top league, it is still unbelievable he was at 2.26 and .922 during 33 regular season games, 1.68 and .936 in the playoffs. At 45!
Moving on to sign with Spartak Moscow in the KHL next season, being the goalie with the most shutouts in the KHL at the age of 46 (!), recording 2.48 and .915 in 46 games!


Edit - I know these leagues are different tier compared to the NHL, but it is still interesting to see what he could do at such age in a position that is so physically demanding (especially with his style)

 

[ManofSteel55]

Brodeur doesn't belong in the same conversation as Hasek and Roy.

Sure he does, as long as it is by stating something like, "Brodeur was the clear cut #3 of his era, significantly behind Hasek and Roy, but significantly above the next tier of goalie, such as Curtis Joseph."

 

[ManofSteel55]

Fair enough.



The hockey community outside of HF is pretty split on 5 names (The big 3 along with Sawchuk and Plante). Personally I believe Hall belongs in that mix as well. HFB doesn't even remotely represent the entire hockey community.

Outside of HF, Broduer is still considered 5th at best amongst those who have much actual knowledge about the game - Roy, Plante, Sawchuk, Dryden and sometimes Hall and Hasek are considered above Brodeur by those who weren't Devils fans or stat page/record book watchers.

 

[ManofSteel55]

Broduer is literally the best puck-handling goalie of all time. He might not have been as positionally sound as Roy and some other butterfly goalies, and nobody was as athletic and dominant as peak Hasek, but Marty is severely underrated for his ability to act as a third defender. No other goalie impacted the flow of the game quite as much, hence the Brodeur rule.
If you want to get very nitty gritty about it I could see Hasek as 1 and Roy/Marty as 2A/2B, but I don't think you can clearly put Roy a cut above Broduer and I sure as hell don't see anyone in the same category as these 3.

Nobody underestimates that element of Broduer's game. That is literally what he is best known for and he is almost universally considered the best puck handling goalie of all time.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I have Brodeur firmly behind Hasek and Roy but it is impressive what a workhorse Brodeur was.

He had 11 seasons where he started 70 games or more. That's insane. For comparison Hasek had 1 season and Roy's highest games started was 68.

Given how mentally taxing goaltending is on top of the physical toll, that's a pretty incredible workload.