Round 2, Vote 8 (HOH Top Non-NHL Europeans)

[Canadiens1958]

1987 Sweden's Gold Medal

^^^. 1987 Swedish Gold Medal is somewhat contraversial. Sweden was awarded the gold medal due to goal differential in the final round even though Sweden had lost three games while the Soviet Union was undefeated. Furthermore Sweden would not have qualified for the final round initially if certain decisions were not reversed. See link for details:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987_World_Ice_Hockey_Championships

The tournament AST and honours voting reflects the actual tournament performance of the players given the circumstances.

 

[Batis]

Ulf Sterner - finishing 2nd to Suchy's huge season in that 1969 Europe-wide poll is quite the feather in the cap of a player who was relevant for a good amount of time. Solid accolades both domestic and international. Seems pretty versatile. His performance in the O6-era AHL impressed me, at least. Plus, I think our list might be underrepresenting Swedes a bit.

Yes versatile seems like a good word to describe Ulf Sterner. Here are some quotes from Sterners Swedish HHOF profile regarding his strenghts as a player.

"Ulf Sterner had outstanding Hockey IQ and was a very good playmaker."

"Ulf Sterner was a reliable goal-scorer and also a very tough player, who not only once got into fights at the rink/on the ice."

http://hockeyhalloffame.se/invalda_1/

Edit: Sterner also had leadership qualities. I dont know exactly which year he became the captain of Tre Kronor but I know that he at the very least was the captain between 1969 and 1971.

 

[DN28]

Maybe because the IIHF directorate and the media didn't base their judgement on the save percentage??? If we put much emphasis on the SV%, then the Soviet goalie (also Belosheikin & Mylnikov) was the best goalie in almost every tournament in the 1980s; but it was clearly much easier to be in goal for USSR than e.g. for Sweden. Not that the save percentage is a meaningless statistic, but I think this is wrong kind of 'revisionism'; should we just assume that both the directorate and the media got it wrong?

Of course, it´s not all about save percentage, but come on... If you go through stats of different goalies throughout 60s to 80s, you clearly see that winner of goaltender´s awards was dominant statistically, i.e. SV% almost always well over 90% (Holecek, sometimes Tretayk) or at least slightly above 90% (most of other goalies). Seeing Lindmark winning it in 1986 with 7th best SV% (0.878) was like a punch to my face from my notebook. That´s equivalent of some NHL goalie winning Vezina trophy in today´s NHL with 0.905 %... Heck, Lindmark was more deserving of it even in 1987 when Hasek won it.

I like to base my judgement on something tangible. That´s why I can´t just ignore the fact that both Lindmark´s awards (1981 and 1986) were one of the most weakest during 60s to 80s from statistical standpoint.

No.

I mean, what did Kralik achieve internationally besides the 1982 and 1985 WHCs? I think he was rather weak in the 1980 OG, and wasn't anything great in the 1979 WHC, and as far as I can see, he was the #1 goalie on Team CSSR only in 1 other tournament (1983 WHC); in the 1981 Canada Cup, it was Karel Lang and in the 1984 Canada Cup Kralik wasn't even a backup goalie. Jaromir Sindel played in the big games in the 1984 OG too.

However, I like neither Lindmark nor Kralik being available in the vote at this stage.

Case for Kralik over Lindmark is very simple. Kralik´s three best championships are better than anything Lindmark has ever done in his career.

1982 World Championships
* NOTE: played only 1 game

- Kralik named All-star goalie and Directoriate´s best goalie

1983 World Championships
* NOTE: played only 1 game

- not surprisingly Tretyak won both awards, Kralik put up his statistically best championship though

WC 1985

1. Vladimir Myshkin: 9 games / 1.34 GAA / 0.936 %
2. Steve Weeks: 5 games / 2.04 GAA / 0.924 %
3. Jiri Kralik: 9 games / 1.89 GAA / 0.922 %
4. Pat Riggin: 4 games / 3.11 GAA / 0.893 %
5. Kari Takko: 5 games / 3.29 GAA / 0.891 %
6. Karl Friesen: 9 games / 3.92 GAA / 0.886 %
7. Rolf Ridderwall: 5 games / 4.43 GAA / 0.867 %
8. John Vanbiesbrouck: 9 games / 5.64 GAA / 0.866 %
9. Peter Lindmark: 7 games / 3.73 GAA / 0.843 %
- Kralik was All-star and won Best goalie award + his team won its only gold medal in 80s + was named Best player in Europe (Izvestia golden stick award) as the only non-Soviet during 80s

Lindmark never sniffed these high SVs% of Kralik in his international career.

 

[DN28]

Regarding Lindmark in particular, I really don't think comparing raw statistics is very useful when Team Sweden had nowhere near the team defense as, for example, Team Czechoslovakia.

Really? I don´t think CSSR´s defense in 80s was anything spectacular. Miloslav Horava or Antonin Stavjana weren´t bad players but they´re not relevant in this list. Not a single CS d-man won defensemen award during 80s (except for Arnold Kadlec in CC 1981). Sweden won one All-star d-man recognition (Anders Eldebrink in WC 1989). I don´t know how CSSR´s defense was any better than that of Swedes.

 

[MadArcand]

Igor Liba - My first impression is that he looks pretty good - good Golden Hockey Stick record, and two-way players like him will rightfully have better awards records than scoring finishes. On the other hand, what makes him better than contemporaries Ruzicka and Lala or countryman Golonka? Was he used in a defensive role internationally... his offensive stats in international games aren't very good.

He certainly didn't get 1st line role pretty much ever (as those were generally reserved for Czechs), so mostly used in 2nd/3rd line role with major defensive responsibility.

 

[MaxV]

Edit: Sorry I didn't know the rules.

In terms of strictly historical reputation of Soviet players, I would say that Davydov and Kapustin are higher then others, but judging by what I've read, I would say Lutchenko should be higher then the rest of Soviet players on this list.

 

[seventieslord]

So is Sterner the Swedish Liba?

 

[Rob Scuderi]

So is Sterner the Swedish Liba?

Sterner scored a lot more than Liba though (internationally/domestically/relative to team) right?

 

[seventieslord]

Sterner scored a lot more than Liba though (internationally/domestically/relative to team) right?

Do you have a breakdown of that? I don't doubt it's true but I'd like to see a visual of the degree that it is.

Also, I'd be more inclined to value domestic achievements from cssr over Sweden, and from the 80s over the 60s. So for Sterner to be ahead he'd have to show to be way more dominant in his environment.

I'm not sure what would put Sterner over Loob either. We're talking about "probably could have been in the NHL" versus "did play in the NHL and was an excellent player and one season star".

 

[DN28]

Finally, here is what Jan Suchý said in autobiography about using 'performance-enhancing drugs'.

Jan Suchý (p. 141-143):

"Championship (1965 - DN28) was quite a success, we swept Canada 8:0, USA 12:0 - albeit not the best overseas teams were competing us, only amateurs, some students from universities almost without exception. We blew out against Russians 1:3 yet, and finished second overall. Before the last game with Soviets, Franta Tikal came to me, with whom I played in pair, and he fiddled with some pink little pills in his hand: 'Hey, rookie, we´re playing for the title of World Champion. I have something here for encouragement. It will do no harm. Take it so we´ll play a big game.' - 'What is it?' I was interested. 'Don´t ask and take a shot.' I didn´t ask and swallowed one pill. Franta took three of them. During the game, I was really horny, totally boosted, I felt that I have immense power. Because of injury - I received a textbook 'konare' - I didn´t finish the game. Tikal scored our only goal. We got last one by reflection of the boards during a power play and we went for silver.
At night after the match, I still didn´t know what to do. I couldn´t eat, sleep, anything. My head throbbed and young Holík, with whom I shared the room, was still vainly keeping giving me advice: 'Please, go to bed already.' But I was travelling through the hall until next morning; it was -30° outside, I couldn´t go out, so I had no option than this walk-trip. In the morning, I went to Tikal who even after his three pills had been sleeping the whole night like a baby; I guess he was used to it. 'How could you cause me such a misery?!' I was blaming him, and he only laughed. I was twenty-one and I knew nothing about some doping. That it won´t be some vitamins however, was clear to me immediately. By the way: Franta Tikal was named the best defenseman of the tournament and he got even into the best unit through the writers-voting. I guess they were impressed how much power he had.

Since then, I´ve never taken anything. With pills though, I have one more experience. We were in Sweden for some exhibition, Czech athletes were living with us in a hotel and they had there some of their athletic competitions. We went for breakfasts together. Discus thrower Ludva Daněk was sitting next to me, he had a plate in front of him and bunch of little pills on it. Green one, blue one, red one... 'Hey man, what are you kicking in?' I asked. 'That´s cool. We eat it every day,' he was calming me down. Whatever that was, athletes sure made no secrets with eating those lentils - they were consuming them entirely publicly. Ludva is long gone, no one will ever know what kind of ***** that was. Perhaps even they didn´t know what they were eating.

At the Championship in 1965 there were no tests yet, so even Franta Tikal didn´t have to worry. But later an initiative was started to go for urinal controls. Until after the second period we didn´t learn which three players had been chosen from each team for providing their body fluids for control. They caught me only once - in 1969 in Stockholm. They brought me to waiting room, put a small bottle into my hand and I was waiting when I would be able to pee. They had little box with beers in there, so I was taking it one by one in order for me to deliver quickly. I wasn´t used to go on toilet earlier than after five pieces - I had already observed that. In Stockholm, I tried of course to go earlier so that I didn´t have to stay there too long, I was pushing almost until my eyes jumped out of my eyeholes, but all of it was futile. Other examined players - it was after our loss to Sweden - were long gone and I still produced nothing. Nurse has already been nervous, she went looking for me but I hold my phial still empty, only those cans were piling up next to me. This time, it took me for honest six pieces. I spent there like three hours, but thanks to well arranged supplies it wasn´t so bad."



Since I´m here with this, I have to mention another hilarious sentence. On the very next page Suchý talks how he never understood purpose for which masseurs or saunas are good. "I cured myself with cigarettes and beers." Or that he never drunk during a game because his immediate post-game beer wouldn´t taste so good.

And Jan Suchý again later in his book (p. 237):

"That tournament (WC 1974 - DN28) is sometimes called the ephedrine one. We bested the Finns there 5:2 (oops, Czechs actually lost to Finns 5:2 there - DN28) and additionally their goalie had taken just the ephedrine. They improved our score with contumacy yet. They caught even some other Polish with enhancing drugs at that tournament. Anti-doping controls in Europe were just starting, until then everything was possible. Franta Tikal, who eated berries for encouragement, would remain staring. Tests were introduced even in the league in time soon.

For example, athletes were juicing without any discussion. Shot putter Jarda Brabec from Dukla Prague was throwing over twenty-one metres. Later, he went to ask civil doctor if that special nutrition of his could hurt him, and doctor told him that if he´s going to continue, he will be having problems ***with erection*** and that he´ll be at risk of infertility. Jarda stopped swallowing pills and since then, he couldn´t achieve more than nineteen fifty. Whole Eastern Bloc doped so it couldn´t miss even us."

 

[Theokritos]

Finally, here is what Jan Suchý said in bio about using 'performance-enhancing drugs'.

Thanks for this. It's rare anybody opens up about this topic like Suchý did.

 

[Thegreatwar]

Thanks for this. It's rare anybody opens up about this topic like Suchý did.

Sounds like some sort of stimulant (amphetamines, maybe?)

 

[Canadiens1958]

1968 Olympic AST

This may not be the ideal spot for this post but came across the 1968 Olympic AST results with détails about the voting. Seems that 50 sportswriters did the voting producing the results as listed.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ZMUtAAAAIBAJ&sjid=458FAAAAIBAJ&hl=fr&pg=2848,4099715

 

[DN28]

Thanks for this. It's rare anybody opens up about this topic like Suchý did.

You´re welcome. It was definitely worth to post it.

Sounds like some sort of stimulant (amphetamines, maybe?)

Yes, that very well could be.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Sterner scored a lot more than Liba though (internationally/domestically/relative to team) right?

This. Also, I don't think Sterner has as much said about his two-way game as Liba.

Do you have a breakdown of that? I don't doubt it's true but I'd like to see a visual of the degree that it is.

Also, I'd be more inclined to value domestic achievements from cssr over Sweden, and from the 80s over the 60s. So for Sterner to be ahead he'd have to show to be way more dominant in his environment.

I'm not sure what would put Sterner over Loob either. We're talking about "probably could have been in the NHL" versus "did play in the NHL and was an excellent player and one season star".

On the other hand, Sterner was voted the 2nd best European in that isolated 1969 poll when competition was pretty strong. Where do you think Loob would rank, even during his one NHL All-Star season?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Really? I don´t think CSSR´s defense in 80s was anyhow spectacular. Miloslav Horava or Antonin Stavjana weren´t bad but they´re not relevant in this list. Not a single CS d-man won defensemen award during 80s (except for Arnold Kadlec in CC 1981). Sweden won one All-star d-man recognition (Anders Eldebrink in WC 1989). I don´t know how CSSR´s defense was any better than that of Swedes.

If your argument is that Lindmark didn't deserve his Best Goalie/All Star Goalie nod(s), you probably should not use those exact same awards for his defensemen in support of your position.

Anyway, I think there are major problems with using save percentage in small sample sizes, ESPECIALLY in tournament where the gap between the good and bad teams is enormous.

I tend to think that when two different groups of independent voters (both the Directorate and the media) come to the same conclusion, that we shouldn't second-guess their conclusion, absent really compelling information.

 

[DN28]

If your argument is that Lindmark didn't deserve his Best Goalie/All Star Goalie nod(s), you probably should not use those exact same awards for his defensemen in support of your position.

Anyway, I think there are major problems with using save percentage in small sample sizes, ESPECIALLY in tournament where the gap between the good and bad teams is enormous.

I tend to think that when two different groups of independent voters (both the Directorate and the media) come to the same conclusion, that we shouldn't second-guess their conclusion, absent really compelling information.

ONE tournament is a small sample size. 10/11 different tournaments during the whole decade is not.

Of course, we can fully trust the voters that they picked the right goalies. Even then, the save percentage (or generally statistical) argument becomes obvious.

Lindmark - twice best goalie award + twice all-star

Kralik - twice best goalie award + twice all-star

SV% in those tournaments?

Lindmark - 0.903 % in 1981 and 0.878 % in 1986

Kralik - 0.928 % in 1982 and 0.922 % in 1985

BIG difference, I´d say.

Putting Lindmark ahead of Kralik is based only on the fact that Lindmark played more championships, nothing else. And is that enough?

 

[Batis]

Look good this round

Sergei Kapustin - strong international record. Pretty physical and a good cornerman. Good enough to be a second liner on CSKA. Keep in mind that in the 1980s, 2nd and 3rd liners on CSKA were going to be generally better players than 1st liners on other Soviet domestic teams, but without as many opportunities to put up domestic stats.

While I agree that Kapustin is one of the strongest candidates in this vote I just want to point out that he did not play at CSKA during most of the 1980s. Kapustin played with CSKA between 77/78 and 79/80. During the 80s Kapustin mostly played with Spartak on the brilliant Kapustin-Shepelev-Shalimov line.

 

[seventieslord]

This. Also, I don't think Sterner has as much said about his two-way game as Liba.



On the other hand, Sterner was voted the 2nd best European in that isolated 1969 poll when competition was pretty strong. Where do you think Loob would rank, even during his one NHL All-Star season?

I don't know, as the best players in europe were all scattered, but he was probably the NHL's best european since his top competition was mikko makela at forward, tomas jonsson at defense and kari takko in net.

overseas there was makarov and fetisov (surely better), krutov and kasatonov (generally better but not this season), and hasek was already winning his czech league top goalie awards and surely has to throw his hat in the ring.

So, 3rd or 4th. considering the names ahead of him I don't think that's any less impressive.

god, I hope I didn't forget anyone obvious, I'm gonna feel like a twit.

 

[VMBM]

Almetov with Loktev and Alexandrov, did he approach the long term overall contribution of Vladimir Petrov to his linemates or was he carried by his linemates?

Similar to Pete Mahovlich with Lafleur and Shutt, nice numbers for two seasons, but easily replaced by Jacques Lemaire, recognized as a much better overall player but not as prolific offensively ?

I don't think so. He seemed to have been great when he was great (according to e.g. Russian contemporary sources), and had at least 6 or 7 top notch seasons domestically and/or internationally. I've never seen anything that suggests that he was a 'complementary player'. He played in his last WHC (1967) without Loktev (on a line with Alexandrov and Viktor Yakushev I think) and was an All-Star. Replaceable? Heh, almost everyone is.

Vitaly Davydov - excellent defensive defenseman. Apparently a strong performer in the Olympics Games (finished quite highly in that ranking of the top Soviet hockey players ever in the Olympics -http://www.chidlovski.com/personal/1972/stats/rutop10i.htm ).

Well, you keep on believing that the list well-researched/-thought-out... I won't. At least not as long as it remains just a list without any further information about how the list was conducted and who exactly are responsible for it. Mikhailov above Kharlamov at the Olympics, yeah right...

Vladimir Shadrin - Doesn't have the stats or accolades. Behind two clearly superior contemporaries (Vikulov and Shalimov) who aren't even available yet. He gets drafted in the All Time (fantasy) Draft as a penalty killer who isn't inept offensively, a fairly rare skillset there, but irrelevant to lists such as this one.

Actually I think his international stats are fine; 84 points (41+43) in 71 WHC/OG games, with 1.183 PPG (<-- better than Kapustin's http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=106601341&postcount=244).
You are right about accolades... on the other hand, Jiri Holik didn't win any awards either, although he has a strong GS voting record (arguably much stronger than Shadrin's SPOTY voting record, even relatively speaking).

I don't know about his reputation as a "distinguished master of penalty killing", though; might be a bit overrated. Boris Mikhailov and Vladimir Petrov seemed to be used as penalty killers in the 1970s at least as much as Shadrin, maybe even more so.

BTW, Alexander Almetov's bio on the Greatest Hockey Legends. com suggests that he was a terrific penalty killer:

Part of that was because Almetov was a superior defensive forward. In fact he was a mainstay on the Russian penalty killing units perhaps the best PK man of his generation.

On the other hand, he was also called a poor & lazy defensive forward at even strength.
One thing that bothers me in that bio is that they claim that "he was never an elite scoring threat". Huh? He was one of the top goal-scorers in the league in 1961-66 and and a very effective scorer internationally (up till 1967 WHC) too.

 

[VMBM]

Case for Kralik over Lindmark is very simple. Kralik´s three best championships are better than anything Lindmark has ever done in his career.

Again, based solely on the SV%. Sorry if I don't quite agree with that approach.

I tend to think that when two different groups of independent voters (both the Directorate and the media) come to the same conclusion, that we shouldn't second-guess their conclusion, absent really compelling information.

This.

One interesting thing about the 1980s Swedish teams is that Finland did extremely well against them; Finland lost only 1 game to Sweden in the World Championships & Olympics in the 1980s: in the 1989 WHC Sweden beat Finland 6-3, but other than that, only ties (mostly) and Finnish victories. Generally, Sweden did much better (and they beat Finland in the Canada Cups both in 1981 and 1987) and usually made the medal round whereas Finland usually didn't, but head-to-head, you'd think that Finland had the better team(s).

 

[Theokritos]

BTW, Alexander Almetov's bio on the Greatest Hockey Legends. com suggests that he was a terrific penalty killer:

On the other hand, he was also called a poor & lazy defensive forward at even strength.

Both statements seem to be mostly based on what Tarasov wrote, which is: Almetov was not the most reliable backchecker (unlike Starshinov) so his defensive play at even strength left something to be desired, but his technical qualities still made him a valuable penalty killer as he could be used to basically play keep-away against any opponent.

One thing in that bio bothers me is that they claim that "he was never an elite scoring threat". Huh? He was one of the top goal-scorers in the league in 1961-66 and and a very effective scorer internationally (up till 1967 WHC) too.

Yes, I think there is nothing wrong with Almetov offensively. My read on him is that he was creative player with fine technique who could (and would) make opponents dizzy with his stickhandling and the passing between him and Veniamin Aleksandrov. The downside is that he wasn't the strongest physically and, as just mentioned, he wasn't disciplined defensively. That and a relatively short career.

 

[VMBM]

I don't know, as the best players in europe were all scattered, but he was probably the NHL's best european since his top competition was mikko makela at forward, tomas jonsson at defense and kari takko in net.

Errr, Peter Stastny & Jari Kurri*... although Loob might have had a better season than Kurri in 1987-88. But these two were certainly more of a top competition in the NHL than anyone of those mentioned. Or am I missing something?

EDIT: * Mats Näslund too

 

[Canadiens1958]

Important Distinction

I don't know about his reputation as a "distinguished master of penalty killing", though; might be a bit overrated. Boris Mikhailov and Vladimir Petrov seemed to be used as penalty killers in the 1970s at least as much as Shadrin, maybe even more so.

BTW, Alexander Almetov's bio on the Greatest Hockey Legends. com suggests that he was a terrific penalty killer:

On the other hand, he was also called a poor & lazy defensive forward at even strength.
One thing that bothers me in that bio is that they claim that "he was never an elite scoring threat". Huh? He was one of the top goal-scorers in the league in 1961-66 and and a very effective scorer internationally (up till 1967 WHC) too.

An important distinction has to be made about penalty killing before the fall of 1969 and after.

During Almetov's era(pre fall 1969) the puck could not be iced from outside the Red Line during a penalty kill. A defensive zone(circle) faceoff would follow. Starting the fall of 1969 icing the puck was allowed during the PK.

So PK skills and requirements have to be viewed within the context of the rules. Comparing PK skills and results across the two eras is not accurate.

As for Almetov's importance. Fran Huck was much more important to Canada, raising the level of play of his teammates and team than Almetov was to the Soviet UNIon. Still their individual WHC results were very close.

 

[Theokritos]

An important distinction has to be made about penalty killing before the fall of 1969 and after.

During Almetov's era(pre fall 1969) the puck could not be iced from outside the Red Line during a penalty kill. A defensive zone(circle) faceoff would follow. Starting the fall of 1969 icing the puck was allowed during the PK.

That's a very good point. Someone with excellent keep-away-skills would be even more valuable during a penalty kill when you can't ice the puck as was the case up until 1969.