Round 2, Vote 5

[Reds4Life]

Despite my best efforts otherwise to get Bossy ranked high based on his offensive prowess, others have already pointed out that he was not a leader in anything but example on this team. He was neither vocal nor physical. He would not gettin scrums, or stand up for teammates

Lead by example is not enough?

Jagr has shown that he is willing to sulk, and allow his production to drop if he is unhappy. He becomes a distraction to his teams, and has never led them anywhere.

But he could play effective hockey when 36 years old. Trottier could not. Trottier was pretty useless player during his last seasons with Pens.

I love how you just decide to ignore hard evidence because Jagr didn't play that way. News flash. jagr didn't play defensively, which allowed him to take more offensive chances. Trottier DID play defensively, and he still won scoring titles and shut teams down.

Not scoring titles. One.

Jagr played against best lines too, but when he had puck, it was hard to score against his team. Gretzky never played defense, how come he is higher than Orr?

Saying it shouldn't count just because Jagr didn;t play that way is completely childish. If Trottier had thrown Defense to the wind, he would have racked up a few 150+ point seasons, and several more 120+point ones.

Pure speculation. I can say: If jagr played in 80s he would racked up few 200 points season and several more 150 seasons.

So what? Goals per game were roughly the same, as much you you want to blame goaltending, there are people in this very thread advocating that goaltending in the early 90's was terrible(And we are talking about the early 90's). Jagr actually had worse stats in the higher scoring start of his career then the middle, and he was never more than 5th best on his team when they won cups.

5th best at the age of 19 is pretty good. 1996 is not early 90's, and I was reffering to that.

The offensive gap is huge, had Trottier played in 90's and beyond 2000, he would be shutdown center without Art Ross trophy.

You clearly demonstrated that you don't want Jagr in top25 for his personality, but that is not list of The Best Daddys of the Year.
Jagr's hockey skills are just awesome, far by hundreds of kilometers better offensive player than Trottier.

Jagr was the most dominant forward in his era, Trottier never was.
This simple fact is more than enough of a reason why Jagr is definitely above Trottier.
Jagr should also go before Lindsay and Clarke. Hall and Messier are debatable, but Jagr should definitely crack top25.

 

[Dark Shadows]

The offensive gap is huge, had Trottier played in 90's and beyond 2000, he would be shutdown center without Art Ross trophy.

You clearly demonstrated that you don't want Jagr in top25 for his personality, but that is not list of The Best Daddys of the Year.
Jagr's hockey skills are just awesome, far by hundreds of kilometers better offensive player than Trottier.

Jagr was the most dominant forward in his era, Trottier never was.
This simple fact is more than enough of a reason why Jagr is definitely above Trottier.

Jagr should also go before Lindsay and Clarke. Hall and Messier are debatable, but Jagr should definitely crack top25.

This argument is moot now since Jagr pulled in last round, but The part I bolded has to be addressed. Ill simply imagine that you were temporarily insane to be spewing psychobabble like that.

"Trottier would be a shutdown center with no art ross".......that is among the most ridiculous statements I have read on this board if you meant it in the way it comes across as. News flash. Trottier was almost always in the top scoring race in his shorter peak. He won against the likes of Lafleur(Who is already in the top 15 here), Dionne, Bossy.

If Trottier was playing in the 90's, he would have been Yzerman or Fedorov. Only better. Fedorov had a shorter peak than both, but his Hart trophy year was pretty much what you expected from Trottier in his slightly longer peak. Yzerman, for all his brilliance, was better offensively than even Jagr, but he was not capable of maintaining his offense while playing stellar defense as he did when Bowman showed up. He still put up excellent numbers, but nothing like the 155 points he put up playing with bums. Trottier never lost his offensive edge while playing stellar defense. Neither did Clarke, only Clarke was even better than Trottier.

If Trottier was playing today, he would have been Alfredsson, Zetterberg or Datsyuk, except better offensively and defensively and more physical. There really isn't a comparable player in todays game.

 

[Reds4Life]

This argument is moot now since Jagr pulled in last round, but The part I bolded has to be addressed. Ill simply imagine that you were temporarily insane to be spewing psychobabble like that.

"Trottier would be a shutdown center with no art ross".......that is among the most ridiculous statements I have read on this board if you meant it in the way it comes across as. News flash. Trottier was almost always in the top scoring race in his shorter peak. He won against the likes of Lafleur(Who is already in the top 15 here), Dionne, Bossy.

If Trottier was playing in the 90's, he would have been Yzerman or Fedorov. Only better. Fedorov had a shorter peak than both, but his Hart trophy year was pretty much what you expected from Trottier in his slightly longer peak. Yzerman, for all his brilliance, was better offensively than even Jagr, but he was not capable of maintaining his offense while playing stellar defense as he did when Bowman showed up. He still put up excellent numbers, but nothing like the 155 points he put up playing with bums. Trottier never lost his offensive edge while playing stellar defense. Neither did Clarke, only Clarke was even better than Trottier.

If Trottier was playing today, he would have been Alfredsson, Zetterberg or Datsyuk, except better offensively and defensively and more physical. There really isn't a comparable player in todays game.

Name a player since 90 to 2000 who would have lost Art Ross to Trottier? (Gretzky, Lemieux and Jagr so who do you pick?)

And Trottier never was (for more than one season) the most dominant forward in the game.

I never said he would be worse than Yzerman, Fedorov, Zetterberg, Datsyuk or Alfredsson.

Of course that Bryan Trottier was world class player, I had no intention to doubt that, but I simply think Jagr was better. That's all.

 

[pitseleh]

Name a player since 90 to 2000 who would have lost Art Ross to Trottier? (Gretzky, Lemieux and Jagr so who do you pick?)

And Trottier never was (for more than one season) the most dominant forward in the game.

Trottier won his Art Ross over Guy Lafleur (and Dionne), so I don't think it's ridiculous to think he could have taken a Ross away from Jagr.

On the second point, it's debateable. If you define most dominant forward as the forward who scored the most for several years, then no Trottier never did that. In the case of a Gretzky or a Mario, I think you'd have a point that they were the most dominant. But a player who finished top-6 in scoring over several years while being physical and very good defensively and a Conn Smythe winner could also be considered the most dominant as well (if you exclude Gretzky from the discussion, because it's not really fair to compare mere mortals to him).

 

[Reds4Life]

Trottier won his Art Ross over Guy Lafleur (and Dionne), so I don't think it's ridiculous to think he could have taken a Ross away from Jagr.

On the second point, it's debateable. If you define most dominant forward as the forward who scored the most, then no Trottier never did that. In the case of a Gretzky or a Mario, I think you'd have a point that they were the most dominant. But a player who finished top-6 in scoring over several years while being physical and very good defensively could also be considered the most dominant as well (if you exclude a player like Gretzky, who it's not really fair to compare mere mortals to).

But there is no doubt Trottier is one of the best 2way player of all time. But I doubt he was ever considered the best player in the World, Jagr was.