Round 2, Vote 5

[Wings4Life]

A 36 year old Gordie Howe outscored everyone in the NHL not named Stan Mikita or Norm Ullman. Does that diminish the accomplishments of Phil Esposito, Bobby Hull, Johnny Bucyk, or Alex Delvecchio because they weren't better than one of the top 4 hockey players in history? I don't think it does, nor should the fact that Mario was better at 36 count against Jagr.

Touché.

 

[FissionFire]

The defensive gap is far bigger. I posted the even strength goals against numbers in this thread earlier. The differentials clearly show Trottier's combined Offense + Defense > Jagr's combined Offense + Defense

I just realized. You are Czech. Jagr is your Gretzky. You are just going to ignore anything I say anyways.

Let's let the voting decide then. Nothing you can say can change what I saw with my own two eyes, nor I you.

but I am almost 100% sure Trottier will make the list over Jagr.

Trottier was a far superior defensive player than Jagr but I don't think those combined GF/GA numbers are completely fair. Trottier's teams had far superior defensemen, led by Potvin, and I'd take their goalies of Barrasso anyday. Jagr may not have been a great defensive player, but the cap I don't think is as massive as the numbers suggested.

 

[Reds4Life]

The defensive gap is far bigger. I posted the even strength goals against numbers in this thread earlier. The differentials clearly show Trottier's combined Offense + Defense > Jagr's combined Offense + Defense

I just realized. You are Czech. Jagr is your Gretzky. You are just going to ignore anything I say anyways.

Let's let the voting decide then. Nothing you can say can change what I saw with my own two eyes, nor I you.

but I am almost 100% sure Trottier will make the list over Jagr.

No I am not going to ignore everything you say.
And tbh Jagr is not exactly my favourite player. I would put Lidstrom before Jagr on that list. But he should make the top25.
Jagr was more dominant player than Trottier.

Jagr at the age of 34 was able to get 123 points. Trottier at the same age managed 28.

 

[seventieslord]

Lemieux was the better player during that time, when he came back in 2001.

As soon as he shook off the rust in the first few games, he outscored Jagr at age 36.

I don't recall any rust shaking. He started with 3 points against the Leafs.

 

[Dark Shadows]

4 Cups with one of the most stacked teams ever and 2 with Jagr.
29 points playoff performance in 1980 is not equal to 23 points performance in 1995 no matter how you put it on the table.

Sigh......
Goals per game in 1979-1980
79-80 5902/840 7.02
Goals per game in 1995-1996
95-96 6701/1066 6.29

Goal per game only tells you so much. The true differences in goals per game between era's is in secondary scoring and mostly because of diluting of the talent pool through expansion(Which helped top end talent, but lowered goals per game). Top end talent was scoring MORE in 1992-93 than any year in the 80's with the exception of Gretzky.
It was only after 1997 that it truly began to affect the top lines hardcore.

In 1982-83:11 players had over 100 points(Gretzky had 196). 31 players had over 80 points.
In 1983-84:11 players had over 100 points(Gretzky had over 200). 41 players had over 80 points.
In 1984-85:16 players had over 100 points(Gretzky had over 200). 35 players had over 80 points.
In 1985-86:13 players had over 100 points(1 player had over 200). 30 players had over 80 points.
In 1986-87:7 players had over 100 points(Gretzky had 183), 21 players had over 80 points.
In 1987-88: 8 players had over 100 points. 30 players had over 80 points.
In 1988-89:9 players had over 100 points. 34 players had over 80 points.
In 1989-90:12 players had over 100 points. 36 players had over 80 points
In 1990-91:10 players had over 100 points. 29 players had over 80 points.
In 1991-92:9 players had over 100 points. 28 players had over 80 points.
1992-93:20 players had over 100 points. 47 players had over 80 points.
1993-94:8 players had over 100 points. 35 players had over 80 points.
1994-95:Lockout half season.
1995-96:11 players had over 100 points. 33 players had over 80 points.
In 1996-97: 2 players had over 100 points. 19 players had over 80 points.
In 1997-98: 1 player had over 100 points. 9 players had above 80 points.
In 1998-99: 3 players had over 100 points. 12 players had over 80 points
In 1999-2000: 0 players had over 100 points. 9 players had over 80 points
In 2000-01: 2 players had over 100 points. 20 players had over 80 points.
In 2001-02: 0 players had over 100 points. 4 players had over 80 points.
In 2002-03: 3 players had over 100 points. 14 players had over 80 points.
In 2003-04: 0 players had over 100 points. 8 players had over 80 points.
In 2004-05:Lockout Year
In 2005-06: 7 players had over 100 points. 26 players had over 80 points.
In 2006-07: 7 players had over 100 points. 28 players had over 80 points.

Your argument for Jagr's stats in the years after 1996 are sound, and I agree, it hurt him to play that era. But the years before were not all that different from the 80's.

This is why Adjusted stats need to be taken with a grain of salt. goals per game averages were more a product of secondary scoring than top line talent in the 80's. Adjusted stats are better than unadjusted stats, but contexts must be followed.

 

[Reds4Life]

Sigh......
Your argument for Jagr's stats in the years after 1996 are sound, and I agree, it hurt him to play that era. But the years before were not all that different from the 80's.

This is why Adjusted stats need to be taken with a grain of salt. goals per game averages were more a product of secondary scoring than top line talent in the 80's. Adjusted stats are better than unadjusted stats, but contexts must be followed.

Jagr's playoff performance in '96 playoffs is 23 points in 18 games, that is at least equal to Trottier's best performance in '81 playoffs where he got 29 points in 18 games. In 1996 Jagr played on worse team than 81 Islanders and he had to carry the load.
Saying that Trottiers playoff performances are miles ahead of Jagr's is simply not true.

If you are looking for 2-way player, what about Yzerman? He had better offensive peak than Trottier and when he changed his game to defensive, he was not that far behind Trottier. He got more goals and points. Led his team as captain to 3 Cups, Conn smythe, was not worse than Trottier in the playoffs by any means. He got Selke too. Yet, it's too early for Yzerman but not for Trottier?

 

[Dark Shadows]

Jagr's playoff performance in '96 playoffs is 23 points in 18 games, that is at least equal to Trottier's best performance in '81 playoffs where he got 29 points in 18 games. In 1996 Jagr played on worse team than 81 Islanders and he had to carry the load.
Saying that Trottiers playoff performances are miles ahead of Jagr's is simply not true

Again, no it doesn't Lemieux helped Jagr's stats more than Bossy and Potvin helped Trottier's, and he also had Francis. It was far from a weak team

 

[Fish on The Sand]

Lemieux was the better player during that time, when he came back in 2001.

As soon as he shook off the rust in the first few games, he outscored Jagr at age 36.

shook off the rust? He scored 5 points in his first game. Jagr outscored Lemieux once Lemieux came back. Jagr may not have scored at the same pace if Lemieux didn't come back, but that is irrelevant. The fact is Jagr did. If the only player in the world who is better than you is Mario Lemieux, then that says all you need to know.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

Again, no it doesn't Lemieux helped Jagr's stats more than Bossy and Potvin helped Trottier's, and he also had Francis. It was far from a weak team

why do you keep bringing up Francis? It is such a weak arguement. Francis was never an elite number 1 center. Never.

 

[Reds4Life]

Again, no it doesn't Lemieux helped Jagr's stats more than Bossy and Potvin helped Trottier's, and he also had Francis. It was far from a weak team

96 Pens:
Jagr: 23 points
Mario: 27 points
Francis: 9 points (11 games only)

81 Islanders:
Trottier: 29 points
Bossy: 35 points
Potvin: 25 points

The fact is, Jagr was more dominant player than Trottier. He was, unlike Trottier, considered the best player in the World for several years. I see no rational reason why Trottier should be ranked higher than Jagr.

 

[tomi2]

Even with Adjusted stats, it does not give Jagr a gigantic advantage.

In either case, the defensive difference is much bigger than the offensive one no matter how you slice it. The leadership and intangibles also goes to Trottier by a country mile, not to mention the playoff performances, which is also a runaway victory for Trotz, and the factor that matters most.

Trottier most certainly deserves to go on the list before Jagr.

It doesn't matter if the defensive difference is bigger than the offensive one, because they are first line forwards who's main job is to score, not to play great defence (of course it's always a positive thing if you can be solid defensively). And Jagr was so much better scorer that it more than justifies his place above Trottier.

As for the playoff part, I think that Jagr really gets underrated for his playoff performances. Other than 01, he has almost always been great in the playoffs.

 

[overpass]

Trottier was a far superior defensive player than Jagr but I don't think those combined GF/GA numbers are completely fair. Trottier's teams had far superior defensemen, led by Potvin, and I'd take their goalies of Barrasso anyday. Jagr may not have been a great defensive player, but the cap I don't think is as massive as the numbers suggested.

Jagr and Trottier, during their primes, outperformed their teams GF/GA at even strength by about the same amount. While Trottier had stronger teams overall to compare his numbers to than Jagr did, Trottier also had better regular linemates for the most part. I agree that a big part of Trottier's edge in GF/GA is teammates, so I don't think that the GF/GA prove anything either way.

I think Jagr had a real edge on the PP. I think he's a better PP player than Trottier, for one, and also the PP is a bigger part of today's game than it was when Trottier broke in. 20-25% of goals were scored on the PP during Trottier's prime, and over 30% of goals are scored on the PP today. Any analysis of Jagr that overlooks his PP performance is missing a big part.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

I think Jagr had a real edge on the PP. I think he's a better PP player than Trottier, for one, and also the PP is a bigger part of today's game than it was when Trottier broke in. 20-25% of goals were scored on the PP during Trottier's prime, and over 30% of goals are scored on the PP today. Any analysis of Jagr that overlooks his PP performance is missing a big part.

Jagr actually isn't a dominant PP player, at least relative to ES. Out of elite scorers, he has one of the highest ES point to PP ratios out there.

 

[Dark Shadows]

It doesn't matter if the defensive difference is bigger than the offensive one, because they are first line forwards who's main job is to score, not to play great defence (of course it's always a positive thing if you can be solid defensively). And Jagr was so much better scorer that it more than justifies his place above Trottier.

As for the playoff part, I think that Jagr really gets underrated for his playoff performances. Other than 01, he has almost always been great in the playoffs.

In this case, no it doesn't. Trottier was so good at defense that his defense more than supersedes the smaller gap between their offense.

Icing on the cake is that his playoff performances were better(Im not underrating Jagr's playoffs. I am simply pointing out the obvious truth that Trottier's were up there with all time best), + he was a FAR FAR better leader.

 

[Wings4Life]

Your argument for Jagr's stats in the years after 1996 are sound, and I agree, it hurt him to play that era. But the years before were not all that different from the 80's.

This is why Adjusted stats need to be taken with a grain of salt. goals per game averages were more a product of secondary scoring than top line talent in the 80's. Adjusted stats are better than unadjusted stats, but contexts must be followed.

Disagree. 1993-1996 was not as bad as the dead puck era, but significantly lower scoring than the 1980's. I have the stats on my other computer (not just the ones I presented the last time we argued about this).

Scoring was only mid-level in the mid 90's.

 

[EagleBelfour]

Wow, another very difficult round of voting. The Jagr vs. Trottier debate is a very interresting one. I'm leaning toward Jagr, but heh I just don't know. Two very different kind of player if you ask me.

I had Mike Bossy comfortably sitting in my top-20, and now he will be outside my top-25. Some of you changed my mind on him, and I now rank Jagr above him.

I had Clarke sitting at 20 in the last round of voting, and nothing changed my mind since then. He sit atop of my list.

Ted Lindsay will get the spot at number 22. No contest.

It's time for the great Glenn Hall to be on the list. He's the 5th goaltender on my list, and he's sitting at number 23. I wouldn't be surprised to see Martin Brodeur on my top-30 list.

The last two are very difficult to judge. At first, I had Larry Robinson at around spot #25 and now he's not making the cut. A whole lot of great arguments for Niklas Lidstrom and I now have him over Robinson.

The only I never thought going on my list was Steve Yzerman. Milt Schmidt was a better player, and I always compared favouritely Joe Sakic to him. He probably won't be in my top-35.

Mark Messier: not a big fan of him at all. However, now it's the time he get him. I was really against him in the top-20, but now I'm rooting for him to be in the top-25

At last, I'm really looking up to the Valeri Kharlamov debate. Only a mere 6 position is separating Phil Esposito to him and one of the poster was right when he said that Espo was no better than Kharlamov. Even though I have a whole bunch of Russia in my top-120 list (Kharlamov, Fetisov, Federov, Tretiak, Mikhailov, Vasiliev, Firsov, Yakushev and Maltsev), it's true that they are very difficult to judge against the North American players. Hell, I feel like they are more difficult to judge than the 1910's players from Canada. Anyway, I actually have Kharlamov at 30, but I feel he will be over Jagr, Trottier and Bossy in my final list. Between 25-28.

My final list:

Bobby Clarke
Ted Lindsay
Glenn Hall
Mark Messier
Niklas Lidstrom

Who I think will be voted in:
Bobby Clarke
Glenn Hall
Ted Lindsay
Mike Bossy
Mark Messier

My top-5 not yet up:
Milt Schmidt
Valeri Kharlamov
Martin Brodeur
Viacheslav Fetisov
Joe Sakic

 

[pitseleh]

Bobby Clarke
Ted Lindsay
Glenn Hall
Mark Messier
Niklas Lidstrom

Move Clarke from first to third and you have my list.

My top-5 not yet selected (alphabetical):

Ken Dryden
Slava Fetisov
Valeri Kharlamov
Newsy Lalonde
Brad Park

 

[Wings4Life]

In this case, no it doesn't. Trottier was so good at defense that his defense more than supersedes the smaller gap between their offense.

Icing on the cake is that his playoff performances were better(Im not underrating Jagr's playoffs. I am simply pointing out the obvious truth that Trottier's were up there with all time best)

I agree. Again, it is up to individual voters, but imo playoffs are far more than just "icing on the cake".

To me they are worth more than regular season stats in many ways.

 

[Reds4Life]

I agree. Again, it is up to individual voters, but imo playoffs are far more than just "icing on the cake".

To me they are worth more than regular season stats in many ways.

Do you realize that Trottier played on one of the most stacked teams ever? Yet, his point production in his best playoffs ('81, 29points) was equal at best to Jagrs in 1996(23 points).
Jagr was important player in 91 playoffs at the age of 19!
Saying that Trottier was MUCH better leader just demonstartes that many people here hate him and therefore are biased against him. Jagr is pretty good leader.
There is no doubt he was, is and always will be bigger star than Trottier ever was. If you want to play "better defensive player" game, how come Esposito is on the list already? Jagr was better offensively. Jagr was the best player in the world for several years, noone asked him to play defense. Wayne Gretzky was one dimensional player too, yet he is on the list higher than Bobby Orr.

 

[Dark Shadows]

Disagree. 1993-1996 was not as bad as the dead puck era, but significantly lower scoring than the 1980's. I have the stats on my other computer (not just the ones I presented the last time we argued about this).

Scoring was only mid-level in the mid 90's.

I have the numbers too, and I explained them above. The goal scoring drop between the early and mid 90's affected the secondary scoring 10x more than the top scorers. The top scorers were still scoring at their normal rate (I.E my above research showed this)

The drop and major effect on top scorers happened around 96-97

If what you said were otherwise, then a visible drop in players capable of hitting 100+ points and 80+ points would have occurred.

1986-87. 7 players over 100 points, 21 players over 80 points, yet the league goals per game average was 7.33gpg. Obviously, the scoring was coming from somewhere. 2nd, 3rd and 4th lines are the answer.
In 1987-88: 8 players had over 100 points. 30 players had over 80 points. 7.43gpg
In 1988-89:9 players had over 100 points. 34 players had over 80 points. 7.48gpg

Ill avoid using the freak year that had the same goals per game(92-93 was 7.25 gpg, but 20 players over 100 points, 47 over 80 points) since Expansion feeding skewed the results.

Let's use 1995-96.

95-96 a 6.29gpg average that season, yet 11 players hit over 100 points, 33 players over 80 points.

Obviously, the guys taking a scoring hit were the teams secondary scoring, Checking, and energy lines. Down over a goal per game and no visible changes to high end scoring

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

My top 5 not up:
Newsy Lalonde
Valeri Kharlamov
Slava Fetisov
Martin Brodeur
Chris Chelios

 

[Dark Shadows]

Do you realize that Trottier played on one of the most stacked teams ever? Yet, his point production in his best playoffs ('81, 29points) was equal at best to Jagrs in 1996(23 points).
Jagr was important player in 91 playoffs at the age of 19!
Saying that Trottier was MUCH better leader just demonstartes that many people here hate him and therefore are biased against him. Jagr is pretty good leader.
There is no doubt he was, is and always will be bigger star than Trottier ever was. If you want to play "better defensive player" game, how come Esposito is on the list already? Jagr was better offensively. Jagr was the best player in the world for several years, noone asked him to play defense. Wayne Gretzky was one dimensional player too, yet he is on the list higher than Bobby Orr.

For the love of god stop with that, I already explained that the Isles were not even close to one of the most stacked teams ever.

It had a solid core, and decent secondary scoring. The thing which pushed this team to greatness was chemistry, and leadership from Potvin and Trottier.

a "Stacked" team was the Oilers of the 80's, or the penguins of the early 90's, and in some ways, teams like Detroit in the later 90's. The Habs of the 50's and 70's were stacked teams.

The Isles were not a stacked team.

And no, Jagr was not a good leader unless it is by example, and even then, he leaves much to be desired when he starts sulking.

Trottier and Potvin were 2 guys who demanded greatness from themselves and everyone around them, and that is why those Isles teams with solid cores were pushed beyond their normal limits.

And no, his production in those 29 point playoffs were BETTER than Jagr's best. Scoring was still high in 1996 and I just outlined it. Quit trying to make up excuses to pat Jagr on the back.

Even if you could convince me that Jagr's 23 points was better than Trotz 29 points by a slim margin, there remains the fact that Trotz defense was better than Jagr's in the playoffs by miles. Especially in the playoffs when he was both scoring all the important scoring, and shutting down opposing top teams top lines.

 

[Reds4Life]

For the love of god stop with that, I already explained that the Isles were not even close to one of the most stacked teams ever.

It had a solid core, and decent secondary scoring. The thing which pushed this team to greatness was chemistry, and leadership from Potvin and Trottier.

a "Stacked" team was the Oilers of the 80's, or the penguins of the early 90's, and in some ways, teams like Detroit in the later 90's. The Habs of the 50's and 70's were stacked teams.

The Isles were not a stacked team.

Isles had Trottier and Bossy and Potvin before they won their Cup, it was addition of Goring that brought them the success.

And no, Jagr was not a good leader unless it is by example, and even then, he leaves much to be desired when he starts sulking.

Trottier and Potvin were 2 guys who demanded greatness from themselves and everyone around them, and that is why those Isles teams with solid cores were pushed beyond their normal limits.

And Jagr is lazy and he sucks, right? You have never been on any team Jagr played on, yet you claim he was not good leader.
Shanahan claims Jagr is great leader, I will take his opinion over yours.

Jagr is the best RW in a long long time, he definitely deserves to be on top25 list.

And no, his production in those 29 point playoffs were BETTER than Jagr's best. Scoring was still high in 1996 and I just outlined it. Quit trying to make up excuses to pat Jagr on the back.

Even if you could convince me that Jagr's 23 points was better than Trotz 29 points by a slim margin, there remains the fact that Trotz defense was better than Jagr's in the playoffs by miles. Especially in the playoffs when he was both scoring all the important scoring, and shutting down opposing top teams top lines.

Just look at the goalies in 81 and 96. No difference right?
Jagr never was defensive player, so that "advantage" of Trottier is not right. Jagr played the way he was most effective, Trottier too.
You cannot deny fact Jagr was more dominant and much much bigger superstar than Trottier.

 

[Dark Shadows]

Isles had Trottier and Bossy and Potvin before they won their Cup, it was addition of Goring that brought them the success.

Despite my best efforts otherwise to get Bossy ranked high based on his offensive prowess, others have already pointed out that he was not a leader in anything but example on this team. He was neither vocal nor physical. He would not gettin scrums, or stand up for teammates

And Jagr is lazy and he sucks, right? You have never been on any team Jagr played on, yet you claim he was not good leader.
Shanahan claims Jagr is great leader, I will take his opinion over yours.

Jagr is the best RW in a long long time, he definitely deserves to be on top25 list.

Jagr has shown that he is willing to sulk, and allow his production to drop if he is unhappy. He becomes a distraction to his teams, and has never led them anywhere.

Just look at the goalies in 81 and 96. No difference right?
Jagr never was defensive player, so that "advantage" of Trottier is not right. Jagr played the way he was most effective, Trottier too.
You cannot deny fact Jagr was more dominant and much much bigger superstar than Trottier.

I love how you just decide to ignore hard evidence because Jagr didn't play that way. News flash. jagr didn't play defensively, which allowed him to take more offensive chances. Trottier DID play defensively, and he still won scoring titles and shut teams down.

Saying it shouldn't count just because Jagr didn;t play that way is completely childish. If Trottier had thrown Defense to the wind, he would have racked up a few 150+ point seasons, and several more 120+point ones.

So what? Goals per game were roughly the same, as much you you want to blame goaltending, there are people in this very thread advocating that goaltending in the early 90's was terrible(And we are talking about the early 90's). Jagr actually had worse stats in the higher scoring start of his career then the middle, and he was never more than 5th best on his team when they won cups.

 

[Wings4Life]

Despite my best efforts otherwise to get Bossy ranked high based on his offensive prowess, others have already pointed out that he was not a leader in anything but example on this team. He was neither vocal nor physical. He would not gettin scrums, or stand up for teammates


Jagr has shown that he is willing to sulk, and allow his production to drop if he is unhappy. He becomes a distraction to his teams, and has never led them anywhere.



I love how you just decide to ignore hard evidence because Jagr didn't play that way. News flash. jagr didn't play defensively, which allowed him to take more offensive chances. Trottier DID play defensively, and he still won scoring titles and shut teams down.

Saying it shouldn't count just because Jagr didn;t play that way is completely childish. If Trottier had thrown Defense to the wind, he would have racked up a few 150+ point seasons, and several more 120+point ones.

So what? Goals per game were roughly the same, as much you you want to blame goaltending, there are people in this very thread advocating that goaltending in the early 90's was terrible(And we are talking about the early 90's). Jagr actually had worse stats in the higher scoring start of his career then the middle, and he was never more than 5th best on his team when they won cups.

Did you still rate Bossy highly? I included him in my top 25.

Btw, still disagree regarding your era argument. Will have stats up tomorrow.