tony d
Registered User
Is there anyone who doesn't have Espo 1st? I just can't see anyone overlooking his offensive dominance.
Trottier is #1 for me of the players up for debate in this round of voting but Espo's #2 I think.
Is there anyone who doesn't have Espo 1st? I just can't see anyone overlooking his offensive dominance.
Dionne back to back with Sakic? I just can't see it. The two of them are close in regular season offensive value, but then Sakic completely blows Dionne away in defense, leadership, and playoffs. IMO, there should be a very sizable gap between the two of them.
And what is the argument for Dionne over Esposito (or Trottier for that matter)?
Depends on how you define "generation", but in the early 1980s we had all of Gretzky, Trottier, Messier, Dionne and Lemieux playing in their impact years at the same time. Of course Messier was on the wing at that time. And Clarke was still kicking around too, if you want to include him.
That just seems like an incredible concentration of top-12'ers... half of them not just in the league, but in or close to their peaks, at the same time?
It's something to at least contemplate before we sign our names to it.
Not really sure how much actual overlap there really is with this group of players. By the time Mario has his rookie season, trotts is done , as an impact player and dionne had his last elite season.
Some period at the end of the day is going to have a high concentration of centers, in the Dman project it was the 70's, which still to me seems really strange to tell you the truth but that is a whole other matter.
1) By random chance, the world happened to produce more hockey talent between about 1948 and 1961 than during any other period.
...
#1 seems kind of unlikely, though not impossible. #2 and #3 have both been defended on this forum in previous threads.
Is there anyone who doesn't have Espo 1st? I just can't see anyone overlooking his offensive dominance.
I don't think anyone here would give Mike Gartner any consideration as even a top 20 right winger, let alone top 10. Heck, most probably wouldn't even glance at him for the top 30.
Trottier and Dionne were both 90+ point players after Mario came into the league. Sure they were past their absolute peak, but they were hardly beyond their "impact" stages.
In both the defensemen and goalie projects, we ended up with a concentration of all time greats in the 1970s (5 of the top 11 defensemen, 5 of the top 8 goalies) and we are on the verge of a similar concentration of all time great centers only a decade later.
Three possible explanations:
1) By random chance, the world happened to produce more hockey talent between about 1948 and 1961 than during any other period.
2) For logical reasons that we may or may not be able to uncover, the world happened to produce more hockey talent between about 1948 and 1961 than during any other period.
3) Our evaluations are being skewed by some form of systemic bias.
#1 seems kind of unlikely, though not impossible. #2 and #3 have both been defended on this forum in previous threads.
He isn't in my top 4 as his dominance seems to be either
A) too related to Orr or
B) his start and finish to his career, ie his time outside of Boston is weaker than many others in this round.
If one is primarily a peak guy and thinks that Esposito has similar seasons without Orr, or at least nothing drastically less, then I can see him in the top 4 but I don't see it.
It's just too easy to put him first by simply looking at the numbers, if one looks closely there are enough questions and red flags for Phil IMO.
I hope no other voters are buying this, although it appears from the last vote that isn't the case. I find it embarrassing to our efforts to have Esposito 9th, let alone somewhere in the mid teens.
Just my opinion.
That'd be one helluva t.v. commercial, like those where they trick shot off of things.You'd think Orr was bouncing pucks off Espo the way people talk of him.
I hope no other voters are buying this, although it appears from the last vote that isn't the case. I find it embarrassing to our efforts to have Esposito 9th, let alone somewhere in the mid teens.
Just my opinion.
This pretty closely mimics my opinion right now. Espo was a damn fine player. And he dominated the 70's in terms of offense.
Did Orr help? Damn right he did. But it's not like Esposito is some scrub. He's not some Rob Brown. Just like Coffey helped Gretzky and Lemieux and Messier.
I think we're really over-thinking ourselves here, personally. Lemieux was being talked about as not top 2 or 3 or whatever that nonsense was...now Esposito is gonna end up, where? It's getting a little too "cute" now, I think.
One important factor that needs to be considered regarding Apps and Schmidt is the effect on World War II on their careers. They both lost a significant amount of time because of it.
Apps lost two full seasons when he was age 28-29. Schmidt lost three full seasons when he was age 24-26. Imagine if you deleted two or three full seasons from the record of Esposito, Dionne or Trottier from when they were in their 20s. Their accumulated career honours (top 10 finishes, All-Star selections, finishes in Hart voting, etc.) would take quite a hit.
Some will say that players can't be credited with time they didn't play, but in my opinion WW2 is a special case. It's not like losing time due to injuries from playing recklessly or not training properly, and it's certainly not like losing time due to a contract holdout. They lost that time through no fault of their own whatsoever.
And they were prime years. Apps had been top 5 in PPG in each of the seven seasons before he left, then he finishes in the top 5 again when he comes back. It's a safe assumption that he would've been one of the top scorers in those two missing seasons had he not been called to duty.
This pretty closely mimics my opinion right now. Espo was a damn fine player. And he dominated the 70's in terms of offense.
Did Orr help? Damn right he did. But it's not like Esposito is some scrub. He's not some Rob Brown. Just like Coffey helped Gretzky and Lemieux and Messier.
I think we're really over-thinking ourselves here, personally. Lemieux was being talked about as not top 2 or 3 or whatever that nonsense was...now Esposito is gonna end up, where? It's getting a little too "cute" now, I think.
Can we get some video evidence of how Esposito wasn't up to snuff (relative to the field) and how Orr totally made him? Instead of just guessing at it because Esposito wasn't as productive outside of his prime...
Is there anyone who doesn't have Espo 1st? I just can't see anyone overlooking his offensive dominance.
Non-sequitur: I watched Phil Esposito play (as I try to do with as many as these guys as I can, so I can determine who was a product of what or who was aided by this or not helped by that)...Esposito could play. He could really play. He was aided by having a #1 PMD with the capability of Orr, no doubt. But Espo would have been terrific with or without him. Let's not sleep on him. I thought he would have been just fine going in with the last group. He really shouldn't slip too far here...or at all probably...
Re: Yzerman and Sakic when they first came into the league. I was talking to a friend of mine who used to scout for the Nordiques when they got Sakic (the extra first they acquired that year for Dale Hunter was with Sakic in mind...though the owner (Marcel Aubut) was more interested in Stephane Quintal and may have strong-armed the staff into taking him had Boston not selected him the pick before...anyway...). He said that Yzerman was probably better defensively coming out, he was a Peterborough guy, and they prided themselves on two-way players. Sakic took a little time to develop on that front and was counted on so heavily to provide offense for a club with so little depth. I know this was a discussion in the previous round, so there's a tiny bit of inside baseball on it.
I hope no other voters are buying this, although it appears from the last vote that isn't the case. I find it embarrassing to our efforts to have Esposito 9th, let alone somewhere in the mid teens.
Just my opinion.
Not playing NHL hockey for those years likely extended their respective peaks, though, especially in the case of Schmidt, who played a rough, aggressive style. The human body is capable of sustaining an athletic peak well into the mid or even late 30's if fitness is maintained and no injuries occur. Players of earlier generations mostly flamed out earlier due to getting physically worn down and not having the training/medical knowledge or technology to compensate, as we do today.
Missing out on those war years also meant missing out on the wear and tear of the NHL during that period of time for players like Apps and Schmidt. I don't think it's a 1-for-1 kind of exchange, but I absolutely do think that getting a "break" like that added time to the end of their respective peaks/careers, and we should keep that in mind.
Let me be clear on this Phil most likely is a top 20 center with or without Orr. But let's also not forget how he started and finished his career as well, compared to others in this round and the guys who were already selected.
Phil has a great peak, Orr aided or not, but his resume or case slips with the beginning of his career, especially those playoffs, the later part of his career isn't as impressive as it looks either and his less than stellar ES play starting in Boston and carrying on in New York.
That was my feeling as well but it looks like Sakic developed quite nicely defensively by year 4 at least, which was earlier than my perception had him doing so.
Both guys are close by Sakic is slightly ahead IMO.
You're way overstating here.
It was a two-way street. No way Orr tops 100 assists without Esposito finishing plays, either.
Trottier is a product of Bossy, Esposito is a product of Orr, Gretzky played on the Oilers..
Hockey is a team game and there is no doubt that team style of play and teammates make an impact on a player's fortunes.. but come on.
There has been a definite creeping up of the so and so was a product of the player I like better phenomena lately on the boards..
Your 1-2 here matches mine precisely.Trottier is #1 for me of the players up for debate in this round of voting but Espo's #2 I think.