Round 2, Vote 3 (HOH Top Centers)

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Agree, just listing the decades they played in and looking for overlap is not a good way to determine which players are of the same generation. Messier is listed for the 2000's and Sakic for the 1980's...they had almost no relevance during those time frames.

I mean, tarheel does have a point in that there is a big gap between Howie Morenz's death and Jean Beliveau entering the league, where we have nobody, but part of that is because the best forwards in the early 50s (Howe, Richard, Lindsay, Geoffrion, Moore) were all wingers.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

That is Espostio's case, it's his peak but it's still a large question of how much of a factor Orr was in that success.

If Esposito put up the stats he did without Orr, we'd be arguing about whether Lemieux or Esposito was the 2nd best center of all time behind Gretzky.

We're already taking Orr into account by having Esposito drop out of the top 8.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

If Esposito put up the stats he did without Orr, we'd be arguing about whether Lemieux or Esposito was the 2nd best center of all time behind Gretzky.

We're already taking Orr into account by having Esposito drop out of the top 8.

Perhaps it would help for people to say how they think Esposito would have done without Orr? I tend to think if him as a guy that would've still won 3 or so art rosses (not by huge margins) with a few more top 5 finishes. I'm sure some will disagree but there's a starting point. Once you have an idea of what an Orr-less Esposito looks like then compare his offensive edge to the next closest guys like Sakic and Trottier who have better defensive games and playoff resumes (and longevity in Sakic's case) and try to determine who was better.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Perhaps it would help for people to say how they think Esposito would have done without Orr? I tend to think if him as a guy that would've still won 3 or so art rosses (not by huge margins) with a few more top 5 finishes. I'm sure some will disagree but there's a starting point. Once you have an idea of what an Orr-less Esposito looks like then compare his offensive edge to the next closest guys like Sakic and Trottier who have better defensive games and playoff resumes (and longevity in Sakic's case) and try to determine who was better.

Well how about we take away Bossy and Potvin from Trottier.

How about we put Gretzky & Lemieux in another era where they would be forced to at least make an effort defensively?

Seems like everyone wants their favorites to sit right where they are but the players they don't care for to be put into different situations than they actually played in.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I'd like to see the case for Cyclone Taylor over Newsy Lalonde. Hopefully its not simply he went into the HHOF first.

Looking at their numbers I don't even see Nighbor over Lalonde. Clearly Lalonde's offensive numbers are far better than Nighbor's in the NHL even though Lalonde was past his prime and Nighbor should have been in his.

 

[seventieslord]

Interesting observations about the variance in center depth during that period. I'm trying to figure out quite what to make of it in terms of evaluating Apps.

Here's a summary of the regular centers in the league in 1937-38, by team, with their points-per-game average:

Boston | Chicago | Detroit | Canadiens | Maroons | Americans | Rangers | Toronto
Cowley .81|Romnes .73|Motter .69|Haynes .73|Gracie .65|Stewart .75|Colville .80| Apps 1.06 Schmidt .61 |Dahlstrom .40|Barry .60|Lepine .40|Blinco .40|Chapman .64|Smith .77|Thoms .79
Weiland .48|Voss .32|Howe .56|Brown .24|Trottier .40|Smith .43|Watson .67| Armstrong .00
x| Shill .30 | Drouillard .10 | Wilson .50 | Cook .29 | Shill .18 | Boucher .06 |x
x| Hanson .00 | Kilrea .00 | Asmundson .00 |Voss .00|x|x|x
x| Heyliger.00 |x|x|x|x|x|x

(italicized those who played less than half the 48-game season)



Well... how about that. Toronto was the only team in the league that year that used a 2-center rotation.

That seems like it would have had a major impact on Apps' scoring numbers. I'm trying to decide whether it would have been a net positive or a net negative. It certainly suggests that Apps was doing a LOT more than other #1 centers in terms of workload, TOI, etc.

What's much more likely is that Toronto had another center who just isn't listed as one for that season.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

What's much more likely is that Toronto had another center who just isn't listed as one for that season.

Yeah, H-R's position listings by season seem to involve a lot of guesswork, some of it clearly wrong (such as listing Sid Abel as a center in the season he was a 2nd Team AS at LW).

 

[seventieslord]

If Esposito put up the stats he did without Orr, we'd be arguing about whether Lemieux or Esposito was the 2nd best center of all time behind Gretzky.

We're already taking Orr into account by having Esposito drop out of the top 8.

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean we've taken it into account enough.

 

[seventieslord]

Perhaps it would help for people to say how they think Esposito would have done without Orr? I tend to think if him as a guy that would've still won 3 or so art rosses (not by huge margins) with a few more top 5 finishes. I'm sure some will disagree but there's a starting point. Once you have an idea of what an Orr-less Esposito looks like then compare his offensive edge to the next closest guys like Sakic and Trottier who have better defensive games and playoff resumes (and longevity in Sakic's case) and try to determine who was better.

We've gone to great trouble to attempt to demonstrate what Esposito's r-on was when he was alone on the ice without Orr. The numbers are also unfathomable unless espo is more less even and Orr remains at over 2.0 without espo.

I'll have to dig that up.

 

[seventieslord]

I'd like to see the case for Cyclone Taylor over Newsy Lalonde. Hopefully its not simply he went into the HHOF first.

Looking at their numbers I don't even see Nighbor over Lalonde. Clearly Lalonde's offensive numbers are far better than Nighbor's in the NHL even though Lalonde was past his prime and Nighbor should have been in his.

For starters, assists were recorded less than half as often as they are now, and he was a playmaker. Lalonde was not good defensively and Taylor may or may not have been, (I don't know)

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Top 20 scoring finishes for Esposito, Sakic, Yzerman, and Trottier

italicized red finishes for Yzerman are with Bowman as coach.

player|top 20 finishes
Esposito | 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 7, 9, 15, 17, 17, 20
Sakic | 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6, 8, 10, 14, 17, 17, 19
Yzerman | 3, 3, 4, 7, 7, 10 , 12, 12, 13, 16, 19
Trottier | 1, 2, 5, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14

Sakic has as many top 5 finishes as Trottier has top 10 finishes (6), and has more top 10 finishes (10) than Trottier has top 20 finishes (8).

Sakic has as many top 5 finishes as Yzerman has top 10 finishes (6). Sakic has one fewer top 10 finish (10) than Yzerman has top 20 finishes (11).

Clearly Sakic was better over the long haul than Trottier. But having seen both play at their best, there is no way I would ever consider Joe Sakic to be as good a player as Trottier.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean we've taken it into account enough.

In this case, we can only rely on what the people who saw him play thought.

The writers gave Esposito a 6-2 advantage over Bobby Clarke in 1st Team All-Star nods, while giving Clarke a 3-2 advantage in Hart voting.

Likewise, the 1997 THN panel composed of members of the hockey establishment voted Stan Mikita and Phil Esposito back to back, several spots above Bobby Clarke (who was several spots ahead of Trottier). I realize there are issues with the THN Top 100 (for one, they should have never expanded it beyond 50 without asking for the panelists to send in lists longer than 50), but I think that is pretty strong evidence that Esposito was viewed as a great player in his own right by people who saw him play.

Last round, I ended up ranking Esposito a little higher than I thought I would going into the project.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

For starters, assists were recorded less than half as often as they are now, and he was a playmaker. Lalonde was not good defensively and Taylor may or may not have been, (I don't know)

Taylor was a playmaker, or Nighbor?

And how exactly is playmaking that important in an era without the forward pass, compared to goal scoring?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Taylor was a playmaker, or Nighbor?

And how exactly is playmaking that important in an era without the forward pass, compared to goal scoring?

Taylor was the best playmaker of the era by a wide margin, Nighbor second best.

Taylor seems to be the first player in history to make setting up his teammates a priority when it came to creating offense.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

In this case, we can only rely on what the people who saw him play thought.

The writers gave Esposito a 6-2 advantage over Bobby Clarke in 1st Team All-Star nods, while giving Clarke a 3-2 advantage in Hart voting.

Likewise, the 1997 THN panel composed of members of the hockey establishment voted Stan Mikita and Phil Esposito back to back, several spots above Bobby Clarke (who was several spots ahead of Trottier). I realize there are issues with the THN Top 100 (for one, they should have never expanded it beyond 50 without asking for the panelists to send in lists longer than 50), but I think that is pretty strong evidence that Esposito was viewed as a great player in his own right by people who saw him play.

If you think about it, how could people who saw Espo play not view him as a great player? He shattered scoring records and was a National hero because of the Summit Series.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Gaps

I mean, tarheel does have a point in that there is a big gap between Howie Morenz's death and Jean Beliveau entering the league, where we have nobody, but part of that is because the best forwards in the early 50s (Howe, Richard, Lindsay, Geoffrion, Moore) were all wingers.

Gaps have to be taken with a grain of salt, better yet a tablespoon of salt.

Top four centers are Gretzky(5 years app) to Lemieux(app 30 years) to Beliveau(app 15 years) to Morenz.

On the other hand in a 7, mainly 6 team NHL between Morenz and Beliveau, the league did see twenty flow thru HHOF quality centers.

Go back over the last 15 seasons and adjust to 30 teams. Has the NHL seen a flow thru of 75 - 100 HHOF quality centers?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Taylor was the best playmaker of the era by a wide margin, Nighbor second best.

Taylor seems to be the first player in history to make setting up his teammates a priority when it came to creating offense.

Did not realize that.

 

[unknown33]

On the other hand in a 7, mainly 6 team NHL between Morenz and Beliveau, the league did see twenty flow thru HHOF quality centers.

Go back over the last 15 seasons and adjust to 30 teams. Has the NHL seen a flow thru of 75 - 100 HHOF quality centers?

There is still a maximum of 4 male players per year so adjusting to more teams won't change the number of HHOF quality centers.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Schmidt differentiates himself from Apps and Dionne for being a physical player and Joe Pelletier's profile calls him a two-way player. Apps was criticized in many of his combinations for having no one to backcheck.

This is the only one I could find, but I've read it for other linemate combinations.


Milt's offensive production doesn't match the other two, but he brings other elements to the table they don't seem to have.

Fully agree with you here on this point, I was simply pointing out the production and scoring for each of the 3 players.

Intangibles and playoffs can and should also be taken into consideration as should team situations as well.

 

[Hardyvan123]

If Esposito put up the stats he did without Orr, we'd be arguing about whether Lemieux or Esposito was the 2nd best center of all time behind Gretzky.

We're already taking Orr into account by having Esposito drop out of the top 8.

Frankly his weaker start and finish to his career took him out of the top 8 IMO.

How much the Orr affect matters, or not will be seen in this round perhaps.

I would like to see the case of Esposito and Lalonde (who is looking like the forgotten man this round.

Someone, I think 70's lord brought up how he was top 4 in scoring in his leagues over most of a 15 year time period.

Can someone advocate for him and present his case more clearly?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Frankly his weaker start and finish to his career took him out of the top 8 IMO.

How much the Orr affect matters, or not will be seen in this round perhaps.

I would like to see the case of Esposito and Lalonde (who is looking like the forgotten man this round.

Someone, I think 70's lord brought up how he was top 4 in scoring in his leagues over most of a 15 year time period.

Can someone advocate for him and present his case more clearly?

It's funny that you used to argue that Lidstrom was better than Orr, but now all of a sudden Orr is so good that he's singlehandedly responsible for Esposito winning 5 Art Rosses.

Basically, Lalonde won 5 scoring titles* (1 PCHA 2 NHA, 2 NHL), but at a time when half the best players were in another league. Actually, his 1912 PCHA title is really weak, as the PCHA wasn't really up to strength yet (no Taylor for one thing). So that would be 4 goal scoring titles in a half league and 1 in a league that was somewhat less than a half league.

*the PCHA and NHA titles were based on goals only - no assists were recorded in those seasons.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Resources on Lalonde and Taylor

Here's a good HHOF profile on Lalonde: http://www.hhof.com/htmlSpotlight/spot_oneononep195005.shtml

It includes both the good and the bad

The bad:

Rejoining the Canadiens through a trade for Didier Pitre in 1912-13, Newsy would spend the next decade in Montreal. He scored 25 goals in 18 games during that season, adding 22 in 14 games in 1913-14. During that season, Lalonde, never a candidate for most gentlemanly player, was at his ornery best. During the 1914 Stanley Cup final against the Seattle Metropolitans, Newsy earned five penalties, including a game misconduct for butt-ending the referee.

The good:

But Montreal's newly-anointed captain returned with a vengeance in 1915-16 and not only led the NHA with 28 goals through the 24-game season, but helped lead the Canadiens over the PCHA's Portland Rosebuds for the franchise's first Stanley Cup championship.

Apparently Lalonde had a thing for assaulting referees. He did it again as manager of the Quebec CAHL team in 1927: http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...v0tAAAAIBAJ&sjid=JIwFAAAAIBAJ&pg=3992,3751099

The Trail of the Stanley Cup on Lalonde (via an All-Time Draft profile):

Newsy Lalonde was the greatest and most colourful hockey player of the era covered by this record. ...

... His ability as a hockey and lacrosse player is legendary. More has been written about this athlete, both in praise and abuse, than possibly any other. ... Great hockey stars shone in Newsy's era but they never could move the limelight for long from the original Flying Frenchman. ...

... A born leader, he was almost always the captain or playing manager of his team. There were no desultory performances without incurring a whiplash of his tongue. ...

... They defeated Portland for the Stanley Cup when Lalonde was the star of the series. ...

... They went west to defend the Cup against Seattle and in this series Newsy was sensational and won the acclaim of his west coast critics. It was practically Lalonde against Seattle in the second game when he scored all the Canadien goals.

_____________________

Here's the HHOF profile on Taylor:
http://www.hhof.com/htmlSpotlight/spot_oneononep194706.shtml

During his time in Renfrew, fans declared that Taylor was such an amazing player that he actually scored a goal skating backwards. "That simply isn't true," Cyclone clarified. "Even though there were many people who would swear they saw it happen, it's just one of those stories that was blown up."

Taylor led the PCHA in scoring 5 times and may have won it a 6th time if it weren't for his damn appendix:

Taylor's prodigious scoring ability was him lead the league in scoring five times altogether. In 1915-16, he totalled 35 points, 43 in 1917-18 and 36 in 1918-19. It is possible that he would also have won the scoring title in 1916-17, but appendicitis kept him out of action for five weeks.

The Trail of the Stanley Cup on Taylor (via an All-Time Draft profile):

"Was regarded as a speedy rushing defender in the east. (Played rover and center upon moving west) He was a great goal scorer and inspirational leader. He was named many times to western all-star teams.

"When the O'Briens decided to pack the Renfrew team in the newly formed NHA, their plans wo win the Cup were predicated on securing Taylor from Ottawa. Altough Renfrew never got anywhere in their quest for the Cup, they put on a good show and Taylor was the star."

"Great players like Smokey Harris, Frank Nighbor, Mickey Mackay, Barney Stanley, and Gordon Roberts appeared on the Vancouver forward lines, but Mackay was the only one who seriously challenged Taylor."

Upon his arrival in Houghton/Portage Lakes in 1906 the local newspaper stated:

"Taylor is one of the fastest and most effective, if not the very best player that western Canada has ever produced." (I guess Ontario was considered Western Canada in those days.)

And also: "Taylor is a whirlwind, and has a superior on not any of the league teams."

The likes of Lalonde and several other Hall of Famers played in this league.

Legendary Pittsburgh shortstop Honus Wagner claimed Taylor "was as fine of an athlete as he has ever seen".

 

[tarheelhockey]

Who is the 5th best center of his generation here?

Depends on how you define "generation", but in the early 1980s we had all of Gretzky, Trottier, Messier, Dionne and Lemieux playing in their impact years at the same time. Of course Messier was on the wing at that time. And Clarke was still kicking around too, if you want to include him.

That just seems like an incredible concentration of top-12'ers... half of them not just in the league, but in or close to their peaks, at the same time?

It's something to at least contemplate before we sign our names to it.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'd like to see the case for Cyclone Taylor over Newsy Lalonde. Hopefully its not simply he went into the HHOF first.

Looking at their numbers I don't even see Nighbor over Lalonde. Clearly Lalonde's offensive numbers are far better than Nighbor's in the NHL even though Lalonde was past his prime and Nighbor should have been in his.

To add to this, it's a really tough comparison. Honestly, the main reason I prefer Taylor to Lalonde is because we know that most people thought Lalonde wasn't as good as Nighbor, while it's a lot harder to tell how Taylor ranked against Nighbor. And yes, Taylor went in the HHOF before Lalonde. And yes, 3 people picked Taylor as the best player of the Half Century in that 1950 poll (only 1 picked Lalonde).

I realize it's a really, really thin case, but what else does anyone have?

(As an aside, I don't like adding Lalonde before fellow Canadien center Henri Richard is even an option, but I realize that's a poor reason not to vote for Lalonde if he's worthy on his own).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Depends on how you define "generation", but in the early 1980s we had all of Gretzky, Trottier, Messier, Dionne and Lemieux playing in their impact years at the same time. Of course Messier was on the wing at that time. And Clarke was still kicking around too, if you want to include him.

That just seems like an incredible concentration of top-12'ers... half of them not just in the league, but in or close to their peaks, at the same time?

It's something to at least contemplate before we sign our names to it.

I would be willing to entertain a Trottier vs Apps vs Schmidt comparison. My first thought is that Trottier was a better all-round player than Apps, and was better offensively in the playoffs than Schmidt.

Edit: On the other hand, we currently have 3 centers on our list (Gretzky, Lemieux, and Messier) who were in their primes in at some point in the last 35 years. That doesn't seem like a lot.

Double edit: Clarke and Lemieux never overlapped.