Round 2, Vote 15 (HOH Top Centers)

[vadim sharifijanov]

[many things]

seventies, i'm not ignoring your post. but i think we fundamentally disagree on a number of things that aren't going to get settled anytime soon (relative value of higher PPG in fewer games, gap or lack thereof in intangibles between turgeon and sedin, etc.) for the purposes of this thread and this round of voting, we've both made our points, and i'm happy to let the conversation as it stands stand, with your words being the last words.

Players that have won 1000+ faceoffs in a season.

Player|Season|TFO|FOW|FO%
Brindamour|98-99|1773|1002|56.5
Brindamour|00-01|1907|1152|60.4
Brindamour|01-02|2057|1218|59.2
Brindamour|03-04|1817|1110|61.1
Brindamour|05-06|2145|1268|59.1
Brindamour|06-07|2047|1213|59.3
Messier|00-01|1879|1043|55.5
Oates|99-00|2176|1236|56.8
Oates|00-01|1836|1081|58.9
Oates|01-02|1965|1108|56.4
Rucchin|99-00|1996|1066|53.4
Sakic|00-01|2292|1215|53.0
Sakic|01-02|2149|1122|52.2
Sillinger|01-02|2025|1154|57.0
Sillinger|06-07|1708|1004|58.8
Sundin|98-99|1193|1142|57.3
Sundin|00-01|1870|1058|56.6
Sundin|01-02|1810|1041|57.5
Yzerman|99-00|1868|1061|56.8

19 seasons, 6 of them by Brindamour. Brindamour has the 5 highest FO% of the 19.

i'm assuming that nobody had kept track of faceoff stats before '98?

because in terms of comparisons to the players we've been comparing brind'amour to, carbonneau's big faceoff years are probably in the late 80s/early 90s, when he may or may not have been playing the equivalent of 2nd line or even 1a minutes and possibly taking 1000+ draws. ditto nieuwendyk post-gilmour trade when he was calgary's undisputed #1 (i'd have to think nieuwendyk was playing bigger minutes than reichel in those three seasons).

note that both carbo's and nieuwendyk's FO% in '98 are 59.4%, with nieuwendyk jumping to a crazy 63% (in 67 games) in '99. i can't say with certainty that these guys were exactly as good at faceoffs in their peaks when they might have been taking upwards of 2,000 draws a year, but i remember both being excellent at it.

 

[bigbuffalo313]

Just voted. Definitely the toughest round for me, mainly because of the amount of players available.

Now I just wait to get laughed at for my aggregate list (it was terrible)

 

[overpass]

Match-ups from the starting lineups would be revealing. Who was the opposing center - Apps, Cowley, Schmidt, etc for each NYR center?

Later, playing with the Canadiens during the 1943-44 season, Watson was used at RW - Lach, O'Connor, Fern Majeau(who?) and a bit of Ray Getliffe played center.

When the Rangers won the Cup in 1940, they had to go through Boston in the first round. Those were the two dominant teams of the late 30s, and the Bruins had won the previous year. This time the Rangers won and went on to win the Cup. Watson matched up against Boston's Art Ross winner Milt Schmidt, and Schmidt didn't record a point in the series. Newspaper articles of the time gave a lot of credit to Watson's checking.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Worthwhile

Indeed, I wish we had a reliable way to tell. Start-of-game matchups are deceiving and there's really nothing else to go on, unless a writer chose to mention a particular matchup.

Still would be a worthwhile effort once we get to roster sizes that allowed for multiple line rotations. Coaching strategies home and away, perceptions of players, etc could be explored.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Voting Open

Voting is now open and will close on Tuesday the 4th at 9pm EST. Please PM me your votes for only the top 8 centers with numbers next to each name (i.e. 1. Wayne Gretzky). You will receive confirmation that your vote has been received within 24hrs. If you do not receive confirmation please re-send votes and let me know with a post in this thread.


Thanks,
HT18

 

[Hardyvan123]

Voted and other than my top 3 and bottom 4 off the list, the order (4-8) really could have gone many ways as there are lots of yes he was good at this but he lacked here arguments for most guys in this round.

Lots of guys who didn't make the list and are arguably at least in the mix for middle of the pack this round, ie. borderline top 8 guys.

Many thanks to TDMM and Hockeytown 18 for their efforts here.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Still would be a worthwhile effort once we get to roster sizes that allowed for multiple line rotations. Coaching strategies home and away, perceptions of players, etc could be explored.

I'm a little reluctant to put too much stock into starting lineups, because we really don't know the context behind each coach's choice (ie, were they planning to switch quickly or keep their line on for a full shift), but I guess something is better than nothing.

For the sake of getting this done before the project ends, I'm limiting the survey according to 2 factors:

1) Games in the 1939 and 1940 seasons. These are nice representative seasons since Colville and Watson were close to equal statistically, and Colville was at his peak as a forward. Also a period in which the Rangers were a pretty good team. And finally, we get to see the strategies of two different coaches -- Lester Patrick in 1939 and Frank Boucher in 1940.

2) Home games only. This ensures that we are seeing Patrick/Boucher's intentional matchup choices. Road games are a different dynamic.


1938-39 starting matchups:

11/15/38 vs Red Wings
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Howe - Barry - Bruneteau

11/20/38 vs Canadiens
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Cain - Gracie - Ward

11/14/38 vs Maple Leafs
Patrick - Smith - Dillon
vs
Parsons - Thoms - Marker

11/27/38 vs Black Hawks
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Northcott - Gracie - Robinson

12/11/38 vs Bruins
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Getliffe - Pettinger - Sands

12/15/38 vs Americans
Shibicky - Colville - Colville
vs
Wiseman - Stewart - Anderson

12/20/38 vs Red Wings
Shibicky - Colville - Colville
vs
Howe - Barry - Bruneteau

12/26/38 vs Maple Leafs
Shibicky - Colville - Colville
vs
Metz - Chamberlain - Kelly

12/31/38 vs Bruins
Allen - Smith - Dillon
vs
Dumart - Weiland - Bauer

1/2/39 vs Red Wings
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Howe - Barry - Kilrea

1/8/39 vs Americans
Allen - Smith - Dillon
vs
Carr - Chapman - Schriner

1/12/39 vs Black Hawks
Shibicky - Colville - Colville
vs
Desilets - Blinco - Gottselig

1/22/39 vs Canadiens
Shibicky - Colville - Colville
vs
Gagnon - Haynes - Blake

1/26/39 vs Americans
Allen - Smith - Patrick
vs
Schriner - Chapman - Carr

1/31/39 vs Black Hawks
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Gracie - Thoms - March

2/5/39 vs Maple Leafs
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Davidson - Apps - Drillon

2/9/39 vs Bruins
Shibicky - Colville - Colville
vs
Dumart - Schmidt - Bauer

2/16/39 vs Americans
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Schriner - Chapman - Carr

2/21/39 vs Red Wings
Patrick - Smith - Dillon
vs
Lewis - Giesebrecht - Wares

2/26/39 vs Canadiens
Patrick - Smith - Dillon
vs
Gagnon - Haynes - Blake

3/2/39 vs Black Hawks
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Desilets - Dahlstrom - Gottselig

3/7/39 vs Canadiens
Patrick - Smith - Dillon
vs
Gagnon - Haynes - Blake

3/12/39 vs Bruins
Shibicky - Colville - Colville
vs
Dumart - Schmidt - Bauer

3/19/39 vs Maple Leafs
Patrick - Smith - Dillon
vs
Metz - Langelle - Kelly


1939 Playoffs - vs Boston Bruins

3/21/39 - Home
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Dumart - Schmidt - Bauer

3/23/39 - Away
Shibicky - Colville - Colville
vs
Dumart - Schmidt - Bauer

3/26/39 - Away
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Dumart - Schmidt - Bauer

3/28/39 - Home
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Dumart - Schmidt - Bauer

3/30/39 - Away
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Dumart - Schmidt - Bauer

4/1/39 - Home
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Dumart - Schmidt - Bauer

4/2/39 - Away
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Dumart - Schmidt - Bauer

 

[Say Hey Kid]

This will be an interesting vote. Offensively Sedin, Turgeon, and Roenick have an argument.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Recent

I'm a little reluctant to put too much stock into starting lineups, because we really don't know the context behind each coach's choice (ie, were they planning to switch quickly or keep their line on for a full shift), but I guess something is better than nothing.

For the sake of getting this done before the project ends, I'm limiting the survey according to 2 factors:

1) Games in the 1939 and 1940 seasons. These are nice representative seasons since Colville and Watson were close to equal statistically, and Colville was at his peak as a forward. Also a period in which the Rangers were a pretty good team. And finally, we get to see the strategies of two different coaches -- Lester Patrick in 1939 and Frank Boucher in 1940.

2) Home games only. This ensures that we are seeing Patrick/Boucher's intentional matchup choices. Road games are a different dynamic.


1938-39 starting matchups:

11/15/38 vs Red Wings
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Howe - Barry - Bruneteau

11/20/38 vs Canadiens
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Cain - Gracie - Ward

11/14/38 vs Maple Leafs
Patrick - Smith - Dillon
vs
Parsons - Thoms - Marker

11/27/38 vs Black Hawks
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Northcott - Gracie - Robinson

12/11/38 vs Bruins
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Getliffe - Pettinger - Sands

12/15/38 vs Americans
Shibicky - Colville - Colville
vs
Wiseman - Stewart - Anderson

12/20/38 vs Red Wings
Shibicky - Colville - Colville
vs
Howe - Barry - Bruneteau

12/26/38 vs Maple Leafs
Shibicky - Colville - Colville
vs
Metz - Chamberlain - Kelly

12/31/38 vs Bruins
Allen - Smith - Dillon
vs
Dumart - Weiland - Bauer

1/2/39 vs Red Wings
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Howe - Barry - Kilrea

1/8/39 vs Americans
Allen - Smith - Dillon
vs
Carr - Chapman - Schriner

1/12/39 vs Black Hawks
Shibicky - Colville - Colville
vs
Desilets - Blinco - Gottselig

1/22/39 vs Canadiens
Shibicky - Colville - Colville
vs
Gagnon - Haynes - Blake

1/26/39 vs Americans
Allen - Smith - Patrick
vs
Schriner - Chapman - Carr

1/31/39 vs Black Hawks
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Gracie - Thoms - March

2/5/39 vs Maple Leafs
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Davidson - Apps - Drillon

2/9/39 vs Bruins
Shibicky - Colville - Colville
vs
Dumart - Schmidt - Bauer

2/16/39 vs Americans
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Schriner - Chapman - Carr

2/21/39 vs Red Wings
Patrick - Smith - Dillon
vs
Lewis - Giesebrecht - Wares

2/26/39 vs Canadiens
Patrick - Smith - Dillon
vs
Gagnon - Haynes - Blake

3/2/39 vs Black Hawks
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Desilets - Dahlstrom - Gottselig

3/7/39 vs Canadiens
Patrick - Smith - Dillon
vs
Gagnon - Haynes - Blake

3/12/39 vs Bruins
Shibicky - Colville - Colville
vs
Dumart - Schmidt - Bauer

3/19/39 vs Maple Leafs
Patrick - Smith - Dillon
vs
Metz - Langelle - Kelly


1939 Playoffs - vs Boston Bruins

3/21/39 - Home
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Dumart - Schmidt - Bauer

3/23/39 - Away
Shibicky - Colville - Colville
vs
Dumart - Schmidt - Bauer

3/26/39 - Away
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Dumart - Schmidt - Bauer

3/28/39 - Home
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Dumart - Schmidt - Bauer

3/30/39 - Away
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Dumart - Schmidt - Bauer

4/1/39 - Home
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Dumart - Schmidt - Bauer

4/2/39 - Away
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Dumart - Schmidt - Bauer

Switching of the faceoff is a rather recent phenomena. Started by Punch Imlach mid sixties Leafs, when he would do things like start five defensemen. Obviously would not go a full shift since it would disrupt the defensemen flow for a few shifts.

Just from the above, the trend is to avoid giving Clint Smith the hard match-ups.

The Watson/Schmidt merits a closer look since their styles were somewhat similar - aggressive.

Good contribution.

 

[tarheelhockey]

1939-40 Starting Matchups

11/12/39 vs Maple Leafs
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Drillon - Apps - Davidson

11/16/39 vs Black Hawks
Shibicky - Colville - Colville
vs
Hergesheimer - Carse - Allen

11/19/39 vs Canadiens
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Blake - Haynes - Sands

11/28/39 vs Red Wings
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Liscombe - Kilrea - Dillon

12/2/39 vs Americans
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Jackson - Armstrong - Carr

12/10/39 vs Bruins
Patrick - Smith - MacDonald
vs
Pettinger - Jackson - Cain

12/14/39 vs Red Wings
Shibicky - Colville - Colville
vs
Liscombe - Giesebrecht - Dillon

12/19/39 vs Canadiens
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Blake - Mantha - Sands

12/23/39 vs Black Hawks
Shibicky - Colville - Colville
vs
Allen - Carse - Hergesheimer

12/25/39 vs Maple Leafs
Shibicky - Colville - Colville
vs
Schriner - Chamberlain - Kelly

12/29/39 vs Bruins
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Dumart - Schmidt - Bauer

12/31/39 vs Americans
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Sorrell - Armstrong - Boll

1/7/40 vs Red Wings
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Howe - Kilrea - Dillon

1/11/40 vs Black Hawks
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Hergesheimer - Carse - Allen

1/21/40 vs Bruins
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Dumart - Schmidt - Bauer

1/25/40 vs Maple Leafs
Pike - Colville - Colville
vs
Marker - Langelle - Heron

1/28/40 vs Americans
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Boll - Sorrell - Armstrong

2/4/40 vs Americans
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Mantha - Drouin - Blake

2/8/40 vs Maple Leafs
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Davidson - Metz - Drillon

2/15/40 vs Red Wings
Shibicky - Colville - Colville
vs
Howe - Kilrea - Bruneteau

2/25/40 vs Canadiens
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Blake - Mantha - Demers

2/29/40 vs Black Hawks
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Hergesheimer - Dahlstrom - Gottselig

3/10/40 vs Americans
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Carr - Smith - Jackson

3/14/40 vs Bruins
Shibicky - Colville - Colville
vs
Hammill - Cowley - Hill


1940 Playoffs - vs Boston Bruins

3/19/40 - Home
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Dumart - Schmidt - Bauer

3/21/40 - Away
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Dumart - Schmidt - Bauer

3/24/40 - Away
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Dumart - Schmidt - Bauer

3/26/40 - Home
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Dumart - Schmidt - Bauer

3/28/40 - Away
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Dumart - Schmidt - Bauer

3/30/40 - Home
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Dumart - Schmidt - Bauer



1940 Playoffs - vs Toronto Maple Leafs

4/2/40 - Home
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Davidson - Apps - Drillon

4/3/40 - Home
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Davidson - Apps - Drillon

4/6/40 - Away
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Davidson - Apps - Drillon

4/9/40 - Away
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Davidson - Apps - Drillon

4/11/40 - Away
Pike - Colville - Colville
vs
Davidson - Apps - Drillon

4/13/40 - Away
Hiller - Watson - Hextall
vs
Davidson - Apps - Drillon

 

[sr edler]

ditto nieuwendyk post-gilmour trade when he was calgary's undisputed #1 (i'd have to think nieuwendyk was playing bigger minutes than reichel in those three seasons).

I know Nieuwendyk wont go in the top 60 now, unless I have missed something cruical, but I wonder why he's even up for grabs this round. He's basically a second line calibre center with some nice 80s inflated 50 goal seasons and coattail cups. When Nieuwendyk was Calgary's first line center the team couldn't do anything. That was a pretty good team but it couldn't move out of the first round in the playoffs for years and years. I've seen many blame this on Mike Vernon, but please. Nieuwendyk didn't cut it as a first line center. Because he wasn't good enough. He was a perfect secondary center though.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Switching of the faceoff is a rather recent phenomena.

That's a good point, I was projecting a modern mindset onto the older systems. It's pretty clear from the lack of home/away differences during the playoffs that both coaches simply accepted the opening matchup and didn't try to "game" their way around it.

Just from the above, the trend is to avoid giving Clint Smith the hard match-ups.

Certainly under Boucher that was the case. Smith's line got starts against the top lines of the Americans, Bruins (minus Schmidt) and Habs under Patrick, but it's obvious that Boucher wanted no part of matching Smith's line against top opponents the following season.


As far as Colville and Watson are concerned, here's one way to look at it:

Opponents started their top-scoring player against the Rangers on 24 occasions.

Watson's line faced them 5 times in 1938-39 and 11 times in 1939-40 = 16
Colville's line faced them 3 times in 1938-39 and 1 times in 1939-40 = 4
Smith's line faced them 4 times in 1938-39 and 0 times in 1939-40 = 4


Then, in the playoffs, Watson's line got 17 starts against the Kraut and Apps lines, compared to Colville's line getting 2 starts.

A 33-6-4 ratio makes it obvious that Watson's line was taking the tough matchups and was considered the "first" line in a 1A/1B type situation. This is much more decisive than I expected to see.


Three observations:

1) Colville's AS voting makes little sense in this context. The only explanation I can see is that Colville was perceived to be playing with weaker wings, and therefore carrying his line more. But that's just a hypothesis; I haven't seen any contemporary evidence to support it.

2) Bear in mind that Colville also had a strong turn at defense after WWII, so his time at forward is only part of his case for our list.

3) I'm starting to feel like Phil Watson is even more underrated than Colville.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

That's a good point, I was projecting a modern mindset onto the older systems. It's pretty clear from the lack of home/away differences during the playoffs that both coaches simply accepted the opening matchup and didn't try to "game" their way around it.



Certainly under Boucher that was the case. Smith's line got starts against the top lines of the Americans, Bruins (minus Schmidt) and Habs under Patrick, but it's obvious that Boucher wanted no part of matching Smith's line against top opponents the following season.


As far as Colville and Watson are concerned, here's one way to look at it:

Opponents started their top-scoring player against the Rangers on 24 occasions.

Watson's line faced them 5 times in 1938-39 and 11 times in 1939-40 = 16
Colville's line faced them 3 times in 1938-39 and 1 times in 1939-40 = 4
Smith's line faced them 4 times in 1938-39 and 0 times in 1939-40 = 4


Then, in the playoffs, Watson's line got 17 starts against the Kraut and Apps lines, compared to Colville's line getting 2 starts.

A 33-6-4 ratio makes it obvious that Watson's line was taking the tough matchups and was considered the "first" line in a 1A/1B type situation. This is much more decisive than I expected to see.


Three observations:

1) Colville's AS voting makes little sense in this context. The only explanation I can see is that Colville was perceived to be playing with weaker wings, and therefore carrying his line more. But that's just a hypothesis; I haven't seen any contemporary evidence to support it.

2) Bear in mind that Colville also had a strong turn at defense after WWII, so his time at forward is only part of his case for our list.

3) I'm starting to feel like Phil Watson is even more underrated than Colville.

Keep in mind, it isn't just the All-Star teams. Colville was inducted into the HHOF with a relatively short waiting period (for the era), while Smith was Veteran's committee pick and Watson never got in. That's a somewhat distinct group from the All-Star voters who strongly preferred Colville.

Edit: Also, if Watson was matched against Schmidt and Colville against Cowley, it pretty much evens out, right?

 

[tarheelhockey]

Keep in mind, it isn't just the All-Star teams. Colville was inducted into the HHOF with a relatively short waiting period (for the era), while Smith was Veteran's committee pick and Watson never got in. That's a somewhat distinct group from the All-Star voters who strongly preferred Colville.

Again though, that's factoring in his time as a defenseman which is being set apart for the purpose of this conversation.

Edit: Also, if Watson was matched against Schmidt and Colville against Cowley, it pretty much evens out, right?

In 1939 yes, in 1940 no.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Voted. Hard to believe we're done with 3 of these lists already. Gratz and thank-you to TDMM and HT18 for putting a ton of time and work into taking this project from concept to reality.

 

[MXD]

Voted. I said that Colville and Carbonneau were two of the very interesting and complex candidates. Judging by posts, they indeed were.

Few things were said about Novy, but I don't think he stood much of a chance at the top-3. FTR, Novy would've been anywhere between 10 and 14.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Voted. I said that Colville and Carbonneau were two of the very interesting and complex candidates. Judging by posts, they indeed were.

Few things were said about Novy, but I don't think he stood much of a chance at the top-3. FTR, Novy would've been anywhere between 10 and 14.

Novy will definitely be in my top 8. I don't know what more can be said about him, other than his non-NHL record looks the same as Nedomansky's, better than any remaining non-NHL Euro.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Wingers

That's a good point, I was projecting a modern mindset onto the older systems. It's pretty clear from the lack of home/away differences during the playoffs that both coaches simply accepted the opening matchup and didn't try to "game" their way around it.



Certainly under Boucher that was the case. Smith's line got starts against the top lines of the Americans, Bruins (minus Schmidt) and Habs under Patrick, but it's obvious that Boucher wanted no part of matching Smith's line against top opponents the following season.


As far as Colville and Watson are concerned, here's one way to look at it:

Opponents started their top-scoring player against the Rangers on 24 occasions.

Watson's line faced them 5 times in 1938-39 and 11 times in 1939-40 = 16
Colville's line faced them 3 times in 1938-39 and 1 times in 1939-40 = 4
Smith's line faced them 4 times in 1938-39 and 0 times in 1939-40 = 4


Then, in the playoffs, Watson's line got 17 starts against the Kraut and Apps lines, compared to Colville's line getting 2 starts.

A 33-6-4 ratio makes it obvious that Watson's line was taking the tough matchups and was considered the "first" line in a 1A/1B type situation. This is much more decisive than I expected to see.


Three observations:

1) Colville's AS voting makes little sense in this context. The only explanation I can see is that Colville was perceived to be playing with weaker wings, and therefore carrying his line more. But that's just a hypothesis; I haven't seen any contemporary evidence to support it.

2) Bear in mind that Colville also had a strong turn at defense after WWII, so his time at forward is only part of his case for our list.

3) I'm starting to feel like Phil Watson is even more underrated than Colville.

Similar to the Joe Primeau situation there are various winger trade-offs involved. Watson / Schmidt also produces Hextall / Dumart.

These are probably best left for the winger projects. BTW we are onto something interesting with Charlie Conacher.

Watson was a bit of an agitator. Probably a bit of issue in match-ups as he would be able to get to certain players not others.

Back to Watson / Schmidt. They also faced each other as contemporary coaches in the second half of the fifties. Schmidt's Bruin teams were solid defensively especially at center. Watson's Ranger teams were the opposite.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I know Nieuwendyk wont go in the top 60 now, unless I have missed something cruical, but I wonder why he's even up for grabs this round. He's basically a second line calibre center with some nice 80s inflated 50 goal seasons and coattail cups. When Nieuwendyk was Calgary's first line center the team couldn't do anything. That was a pretty good team but it couldn't move out of the first round in the playoffs for years and years. I've seen many blame this on Mike Vernon, but please. Nieuwendyk didn't cut it as a first line center. Because he wasn't good enough. He was a perfect secondary center though.

Didn't Calgary win the Cup in 89, Nieuwendyk's 2nd season?

 

[MXD]

Didn't Calgary win the Cup in 89, Nieuwendyk's 2nd season?

He wasn't their first center, and come playoff time, I'm not even sure he was their 2nd center either.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Didn't Calgary win the Cup in 89, Nieuwendyk's 2nd season?

With Gilmour also on the team.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

He wasn't their first center, and come playoff time, I'm not even sure he was their 2nd center either.

So, he was a 50 goal scorer 2nd line center. With another 10 in the playoffs.

 

[MXD]

So, he was a 50 goal scorer 2nd line center. With another 10 in the playoffs.

I don'T have very clear recollections of those finals, but he was outscored by Doug Gilmour and Joel Otto...

It doesn't exclude the possibility that he was used at wing.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

I know Nieuwendyk wont go in the top 60 now, unless I have missed something cruical, but I wonder why he's even up for grabs this round. He's basically a second line calibre center with some nice 80s inflated 50 goal seasons and coattail cups. When Nieuwendyk was Calgary's first line center the team couldn't do anything. That was a pretty good team but it couldn't move out of the first round in the playoffs for years and years. I've seen many blame this on Mike Vernon, but please. Nieuwendyk didn't cut it as a first line center. Because he wasn't good enough. He was a perfect secondary center though.

Suggesting a Conn Smythe winner rode the coattails of others to a Stanley Cup is an interesting theory.

 

[MXD]

Suggesting a Conn Smythe winner rode the coattails of others to a Stanley Cup is an interesting theory.

I think edler referred to the Cup won in 89.