Wings, those are some excellent arguments for Fedorov. Not that I agree with them, but they're well-thought-out and expressed. Some of the lesser lights who have posted in these threads could learn a thing or two.
Just a few rebuttals:
*On the four straight 20-point playoffs. It's impressive. But I think at least half his points came in the four-game sweep of San Jose. It was a message sending series for Fedorov, since he wasn't great the year before against the Sharks, and earned a suspension thanks to the 1994 series. But Detroit outscored the Sharks 24-6 in 1995. Fedorov wasn't nearly as good in the final two rounds. And he left a lot of people wanting after his performance in the 1996 playoffs.
*I wouldn't say he was dominant in 1992-93. It was a strong year for him, but keep in mind that there were 20-ish 100-point players that year, and several more who scored at the 100-point clip. He was really good, but not dominant.
*He left a lot of people wanting more in 1995 and 1995-96. It wasn't that he played poorly, but expectations were so high after 1993-94, and he just didn't play at that high level on a regular basis. I thought in 1995-96 that Yzerman was Detroit's best player. I don't think he would have finished top 10 in Hart voting in 1995, thanks to the outstanding season that Paul Coffey had.
*As I said before, the shift to defence was often done as a way to motivate him. I don't think he was happy playing on the blue-line. Sometimes it was done as an injury substitute. Did a motivated, playing at or close to his potential Fedorov play defence for Detroit when the Red Wings blue-liners were healthy? And he never played defence for an extended period of time. There's a world of difference between Fedorov's tours of duty on the blue-line, and those of a Red Kelly or a Dit Clapper.
*Made my case countless times for the lack of legitimacy for the Selkes of Fedorov, Francis and Gilmour.
*Word to the wise: all-star game appearances are generally viewed as a last-ditch, desperation argument in these parts.
*The five-goal game in 1996-97 was impressive. It was the last one for the next 11 years. But to a certain extent, I think it's very indicative of Fedorov post-1994. When he wanted to, he could dominate. There wasn't a player like him in the league. But he didn't always deliver. He had the ability to dominate. And when he wanted to, he did it. But too many nights where it looked like he was just out for a skate, and he didn't do much.
*Ray Sheppard was actually a very, very good goal scorer. I don't know why Fedorov and Sheppard clicked - Sheppard was a terrible skater, but he had great hands in tight, a nose for the net and just overall excellent scorer's instincts. A 38-goal rookie year in Buffalo, 35 goals in 65 games with San Jose and Florida in 1996 are proof that Sheppard could deliver offensively without Fedorov. I don't think he was an ideal linemate due to his limited mobility, but he was definitely a guy a playmaking centre would want for a linemate.
I don't know why his play tailed off in the regular season so much after 1995-96. I don't think it was the layoff. I've seen a lot of guys take an extended layoff due to contract squabbles. Most of them responded by playing some of their best hockey afterwards. Did Fedorov get comfortable from 1998-99 to 2001-02 because of the front-end loaded contract? Perhaps. He had his money after the 1998 playoffs. And when the contract expired in 02-03, he had his best regular season in nearly a decade. After that, it was mostly forgetable hockey, until he got to Washington.
I don't care about the supporting cast when it comes to Fedorov. I won't use it against him. My only concern was Fedorov's ability to deliver in the playoffs when he was the go-to-guy, the guy that the opposition keyed on. For most of his Detroit career, the go-to guy was Yzerman. When it was Fedorov in the playoffs (except for the series against San Jose in 1995), Fedorov was ineffective in that role.
Fedorov's inconsistency and frequent apathy has been and will be used against him. For most of his career, the word "apathy" has dogged him.
GBC, thank you for the props. You've given me some very good arguments, let me give you some rebuttals in the same format you laid them out in:
-Fedorov did play well in the final 2 rounds in '95! He suffered a seperated shoulder halfway through game 3 in the Chicago series, but injured, against New Jersey, he put up 3 goals and 5 Points in the 4 game sweep...Detroit only scored 7 goals
in the entire series, and Fedorov was involved in 5 of them. He was the only player the Devils could not contain.
-He was only 22 in 92/93, and I concede not quite dominant per se...but it was still a very solid year, offensively and defensively.
-You may be getting your seasons mixed up here, I don't know...Fedorov was top 5 in Hart voting in '96 and outscored Yzerman by 3 goals/12 points in 2 less GP...in the playoffs both guys were 20 Pts in 18 GP as forwards, but in the one game YZerman missed Fedorov played on D in a 3-0 loss to Colorado. Admittedly, Don Cherry/other media were all over Fedorov that year because he scored only 2 goals in the playoffs, but they failed to mention that he led the playoffs in assists, and spent a game on D.
-Fedorov would have, imo, easily cracked the top 10 in Hart voting in 1995, if the format allowed it (there were only 6 players voted in). My reasoning:
1996: 9th in scoring, 7th in PPG, 1st in Selke voting --> 5th in Hart voting
2003: T-12th in scoring, 12th in PPG, 8th in Selke voting --> 9th in Hart voting
1995: T-14th in scoring, 9th in PPG, 4th in Selke voting --> _____
(Spots 7-10 were available. Not to mention, he was the top scoring forward on a team that was the runaway President's trophy winner and known for their offence.)
-To answer your question, see the response I gave Thornton: yes! A motivated/healthy Feds was placed on D at times, such as the end of his stellar 96 season or in the 96 playoffs, to name a few times...though you are correct when you say that it was sometimes done as a way of simply motivating him, such as his stint at the end of 96-97 where he was having a slightly under PPG season for the first time in his career (bad by his standards). Still, how many all-star forwards do you see serving as defenceman in this day and age? Or in Fedorov's day and age?
The fact that he spent so many games on D ought to be rewarded in lists such as these.
-I would very much like to hear your case! Ive heard people question Gilmour's Selke, but seldom Fedorov's. In fact in 1992, when the emphasis was on shutdown forwards (Carbonneau ended up winning it) Fedorov was second in the voting and 1st in first place votes...as Jet mentioned, even this year he did better than Forsberg's top defensive season.
-Your opinion of Fedorov post-94 is pretty reasonable when applied to him post 97. Personally I believe it was several things: age, missing 3/4 of a season, effort, and also icetime in Bowman's system.
In fact, his IT was way down in his first post-layoff year, he was averaging 17 minutes and had a horrible PPG, but when it was bumped to 23 minutes over the last 20+ games, Fedorov was on pace for 102 points! (
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A06E7DF133AF936A25751C0A96F958260).
Check out the NHL stats machine at NHL.com --> stats (
http://www.nhl.com/cgi-bin/supersta...ar&playerType=skater&season=19981999&team=COL), a 28 year old Fedorov was getting only 19:20 minutes per game (due to Bowman rolling 4 lines ever since the Devils series)...whereas other superstars such as Joe Sakic were clocking at 25:40, due to Colorado NOT rolling 4 lines in this way. (The trend continues in later years)
The Detroit system bred success, but in the mid-to-late 90's it hurt individual player statistics in a big way.
-Regarding all-star games: point taken!
-Regarding Ray Sheppard: he was a decent scorer, yes. But when Yzerman went down, Fedorov took over the first line on what many thought was the best team in the league...and on that first line he had...Ray Sheppard? Ray was good enough to be a solid second liner on most teams but he was definitely more along for the ride than anything on Detroit's first line, imo. And as you said, his slowness rendered Fedorov's speed and stickhandling skills somewhat ineffective.
Anyway, it's been fun, I believe the deadline for voting is tonight, unless we get another extension. Cheers and thanks for the well-thought ought response!
