Round 2, Vote 14

[FissionFire]

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2

• The top 10 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of five (5) days
• Final voting will occur for two (2) days by private message
• Final results will be posted and the process repeated for the next 5 places with remaining players until a list of 100 players is obtained

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines I'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:
1. Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
2. Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" etc. when debating.
3. Please treat other debaters with respect
4. Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
5. Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (26):
amnesiac, arrbez, BM67, cottonking, DaveG, EagleBelfour, God Bless Canada, Hockey Outsider, kruezer, Kyle McMahon, MXD, Nalyd Psycho, overpass, pappyline, pitseleh, pnep, Pwnasaurus, raleh, reckoning, seventieslord, Shlomo, Thornton_19, tomi2, Transplanted Caper, Wings4Life, Weztex

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes. Anyone wishing to participate who has not submitted a list yet will have until the start of Round 2, Vote 2 to get their list in. Once Vote 2 begins, no additional lists will be accepted.

On that note, I hope everyone is ready to wrack their brains and debate against some of the best hockey minds on the 'net! Have fun!

Click to read more...

 

[FissionFire]

*** PLEASE NOTE THE VOTING DEADLINE ***

Vote 14 will begin now and debates will run through Saturday, 6/14. Any extension to this time frame will be annouced prior to the deadline. Votes must be submitted no later than midnight EST on Saturday 6/14, and voting will run until this time or until all voters have sent their vote in, whichever comes first. THESE DEADLINES ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE SO PLEASE READ THROUGH THE ENTIRE THREAD.

I will be sending out confirmations when I receive ballots from the voters now. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume I never received it and should either resubmit it or contact me to arrange a different method to submit the ballots.

PLEASE NOTE THAT YOU WILL VOTE FOR YOUR TOP 7 OUT OF THE POOL OF ELIGIBLE PLAYERS.

Vote 14 will be for places 68 through 74 on the Top 100 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:
Johnny Bower
Frank Brimsek
Johnny Bucyk
Sprague Cleghorn
Sergei Fedorov
Peter Forsberg
George Hainsworth
Aurele Joliat
Ted Kennedy
Elmer Lach
Boris Mikhailov
Bernie Parent
Gilbert Perreault
Peter Stastny
Scott Stevens

 

[DaveG]

Glad to see Mikhailov finally make it into the voting list here. A bit disappointed to see Francis not make it in yet. Hard to believe someone that sits #2 all time in assists, has won a Selke, 3 Lady Bings and 2 Stanley Cups, and went 22 seasons scoring 50 or more points (a feat only Mr. Hockey himself can also claim) hasn't come up for a vote yet. Even here he remains possibly the most underrated player in hockey history.

 

[MXD]

IMO, there's two groups in the list.

Sprague Cleghorn
The Others, including safe guys like Stastny and Joliat.

 

[ck26]

There's Sergei ... right on time. I had Joliat, Lach and (IIRC) Bower on my last list, so they'll be 1-3 for me to start. Fedorov is the forward I wish more kids would try to emulate, he had absolutely everything. Great skater, great scorer, great all-around player. 13 straight seasons Fedorov was (or was fractionally close to being) a point-per-game player in the playoffs. That's second only to Gretzky's 14 (unless I'm missing someone). Fedorov's three Cups are money. We all know his stats. The MVP / Selke thing was sick.

Three other things stick out when we're talking "greatness" --
1) Name a skater with a better looking stride than Sergei's. Modano maybe. Lafleur maybe. That's it. The guy was lightning, and when I think about great skating, I think about Sergei.
2) Remember too the Nike endorsements and his white skates ... Sergei had what Crosby has now; he was the pretty boy of the NHL and was a commercial star.
3) Anna Kournikova. Like everybody not named Sergei and Anna, I don't know for sure what the deal was ... were they actually married? Dunno, but being romantically linked to one of the hottest pieces of ass on the planet does not hurt your legacy.

My case for Sergei over most of the guys on this list is the same as my case for Gordie over Gretzky and Orr -- why not? Tell me something you DON'T like about Gordie, and tell me something you DON'T like about Sergei. He could be the best player on the ice in any situation ... one of only a couple dozen players in hockey history who fit that mold.

 

[FissionFire]

There's Sergei ... right on time. I had Joliat, Lach and (IIRC) Bower on my last list, so they'll be 1-3 for me to start. Fedorov is the forward I wish more kids would try to emulate, he had absolutely everything. Great skater, great scorer, great all-around player. 13 straight seasons Fedorov was (or was fractionally close to being) a point-per-game player in the playoffs. That's second only to Gretzky's 14 (unless I'm missing someone). Fedorov's three Cups are money. We all know his stats. The MVP / Selke thing was sick.

Three other things stick out when we're talking "greatness" --
1) Name a skater with a better looking stride than Sergei's. Modano maybe. Lafleur maybe. That's it. The guy was lightning, and when I think about great skating, I think about Sergei.
2) Remember too the Nike endorsements and his white skates ... Sergei had what Crosby has now; he was the pretty boy of the NHL and was a commercial star.
3) Anna Kournikova. Like everybody not named Sergei and Anna, I don't know for sure what the deal was ... were they actually married? Dunno, but being romantically linked to one of the hottest pieces of ass on the planet does not hurt your legacy.

My case for Sergei over most of the guys on this list is the same as my case for Gordie over Gretzky and Orr -- why not? Tell me something you DON'T like about Gordie, and tell me something you DON'T like about Sergei. He could be the best player on the ice in any situation ... one of only a couple dozen players in hockey history who fit that mold.

I can't resist....

 

[Howe Elbows 9]

During playoff time from 1995 to 2007, eight players scored over 100 points.

Name | GP | TP
Joe Sakic | 156 | 172
Peter Forsberg | 144 | 166
Sergei Fedorov | 130 | 130
Nicklas Lidström | 167 | 127
Steve Yzerman | 136 | 119
Jaromir Jagr | 96 | 114
Patrik Elias | 121 | 104
Brett Hull | 130 | 104

There are 17 players that meet the same criteria for 1983-1994, and Gretzky, Messier and Kurri all have over 200 points. If I were to complicate things further, the people with over 100 playoff points and more than a PPG during that time are as follows...

Name | GP | TP
Wayne Gretzky | 163 | 310
Mark Messier | 183 | 246
Jari Kurri | 160 | 203
Doug Gilmour | 123 | 146
Paul Coffey | 123 | 145
Denis Savard | 119 | 134
Mario Lemieux | 66 | 122
Adam Oates | 95 | 113
Al MacInnis | 95 | 102

I believe this information shows that players are often helped by being on great teams (Red Wings, Avalanche, Oilers). The reason that the teams are great, however, is due to its players - although having Scotty Bowman as your coach probably wouldn't hurt.

Let's take a closer look at Foppas career up until the 2002-03 season. I chose to not include his next season, where he only played 39 regular season games. He missed the 2001-02 regular season due to injury. Also, I adjusted his rookie season - 1994-95 - to an 82-game season. While in reality Peter had 50 points, I assumed he would continue at the same rate.

Season | GP | TP | +/-
1994-95 | 80 | 85 | 17
1995-96 | 82 | 116 | 26
1996-97 | 65 | 86 | 31
1997-98 | 72 | 91 | 6
1998-99 | 78 | 97 | 27
1999-00 | 49 | 51 | 9
2000-01 | 73 | 89 | 23
2002-03 | 75 | 106 | 52
Average | 72 | 90 | 24

The playoffs are what really matters (Sorry Jumbo Joe, but that's how I feel). Here's Forsbergs record during that time...

Season | GP | TP
1994-95 | 6 | 6
1995-96 | 22 | 21
1996-97 | 14 | 17
1997-98 | 7 | 11
1998-99 | 19 | 24
1999-00 | 16 | 15
2000-01 | 11 | 14
2001-02 | 20 | 27
2002-03 | 7 | 8
Average | 14 | 16

Going by players with 100+ playoff points, 22 of them have scored at a PPG pace (are you getting tired of me going on about PPG yet?). Among them are Gretzky, Lemieux, Messier, Bossy, Kurri, Forsberg, Stastny, Sakic, Beliveau, Bobby Hull, Esposito, Lafleur, Jagr, Howe and Coffey.

It's true that reaching 100 playoff points has gotten more common in recent years - Howe and Maurice Richard are the only players that started their careers before 1950 to do so. Still, players like Ciccarelli, Robitaille, Geoff Courtnall, Tonelli and Dale Hunter have all reached that mark, and that statistic speaks in their favor. What I mean by that is that I don't think reaching that plateau should be disregarded simply because more than 70 people has done it so far.

Only three out of those 22 players I mentioned in an earlier paragraph aren't in the HHOF (excluding those that aren't eligible yet) - Ken Linseman, Doug Gilmour and Kevin Stevens. The reasons for their exclusion might have something to do with Gilmour's Selke as his lone trophy and Stevens being on the first AST once and second AST twice as major individual honors.

Fedorov returned to the playoffs this year, but his 5 points in 7 games means that he now has 168 points in 169 games. Hopefully he can find some comfort in the fact that Russia won gold in the world championships. Also, Anna Kournikova > importing shoes to your native country.

Speaking of world championships, Forsberg has done well while representing his national team, and I'm not just talking about that classic penalty shot in the 1994 olympic final game.

Ignoring his injury problems, I personally believe Forsbergs points production would be comparable, though not really equal, to Jagr's. However, that would mean that I'm moving into the realm of hypothetical reasoning, so I'll try to end this post.

I'll post those usual statistics in a short while...

 

[Jungosi]

In my opinion :

Sprague Cleghorn
Aurel Joliat
Sergei Fedorov
Boris Mikhailov
Peter Stastny
Johnny Bower
Ted Kennedy

should make it this time.

 

[DaveG]

In my opinion :

Sprague Cleghorn
Aurel Joliat
Sergei Fedorov
Boris Mikhailov
Peter Stastny
Johnny Bower
Gilbert Perrault

should make it this time.

Looks a lot like my picks. Order is going to be changed but yeah, prettymuch the same players.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

My case for Sergei over most of the guys on this list is the same as my case for Gordie over Gretzky and Orr -- why not? Tell me something you DON'T like about Gordie, and tell me something you DON'T like about Sergei. He could be the best player on the ice in any situation ... one of only a couple dozen players in hockey history who fit that mold.

I don't like the fact that he completely fell off the map in the regular season after 1995-96. He always left you wanting more, seemingly content to rack up pedestrian 65 point seasons. He still brought it in the playoffs those years though, so I suppose he deserves to be mentioned at this point. But it makes me wonder how much playing on a great team helped his legacy. Nobody really cared that he under-performed for 82 games, because the Red Wings were going to win their division anyway. If he was on an average team who missed the playoffs because Fedorov wasn't playing his best, would he be viewed in a different light?

 

[MXD]

My case for Sergei over most of the guys on this list is the same as my case for Gordie over Gretzky and Orr -- why not? Tell me something you DON'T like about Gordie, and tell me something you DON'T like about Sergei. He could be the best player on the ice in any situation ... one of only a couple dozen players in hockey history who fit that mold.

I think Sergei suffers of - Crime by Association -, a bit like Mark Messier with Lays chips.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=oONl0CyazD0

Sorry, I don't know how to embed.

Oh, Anna was hot, and is still hot, but she's slightly behind Alyssa Milano and Kim Alexis (okay, when Alexis was in her prime, even if she's likely the hottest 48 YO with 5 childrens...) in that regards.

 

[Stonefly]

Name | GP | TP
Wayne Gretzky | 163 | 310
Mark Messier | 183 | 246
Jari Kurri | 160 | 203
Doug Gilmour | 123 | 146
Paul Coffey | 123 | 145
Denis Savard | 119 | 134
Mario Lemieux | 66 | 122
Adam Oates | 95 | 113
Al MacInnis | 95 | 102

I believe this information shows that players are often helped by being on great teams (Red Wings, Avalanche, Oilers). The reason that the teams are great, however, is due to its players - although having Scotty Bowman as your coach probably wouldn't hurt.

Often that is true and then there are guys like Denis Savard. He was on one great team and that one was borderline. It's strange to me to see some of the names coming up for vote and yet Savard hasn't been mentioned. Maybe he's not even on most lists, not sure. For example there is no way I would ever say Al MacInnis was a better player than Savard. You could come to that conclusion going by awards and such though.

 

[MXD]

In my opinion :

Sprague Cleghorn
Aurel Joliat
Sergei Fedorov
Boris Mikhailov
Peter Stastny
Johnny Bower
Ted Kennedy

should make it this time.

Switch Bower with Brimsek, and that's pretty much the players that will make my list as well.

 

[Howe Elbows 9]

If you voted for Sakic over Yzerman, I don't see why you'd vote for Fedorov over Forsberg. Foppa has been injured a lot - get over it (I didn't mean for that to sound as hostile as it probably does).

All-star teams

Name | Position | 1st AST | 2nd AST | 1st AST span | 2nd AST span
Johnny Bower | G | 1 | 0 | 1961 |
Frank Brimsek | G | 2 | 6 | 1939-1942 | 1940-1948
Johnny Bucyk | LW | 1 | 1 | 1971 | 1968
Sprague Cleghorn | D | N/A | N/A
Sergei Fedorov | C | 1 | 0 | 1994 |
Peter Forsberg | C | 3 | 0 | 1998-2003 |
George Hainsworth | G | 0 | 0 |
Aurel Joliat | LW | 1 | 3 | 1931 | 1932-1935
Ted Kennedy | C | 0 | 3 | | 1950-1954
Elmer Lach | C | 3 | 2 | 1945-1952 | 1944-1946
Boris Mikhailov | RW | N/A | N/A
Bernie Parent | G | 2 | 0 | 1974-1975 |
Gilbert Perreault | C | 0 | 2 | | 1976-1977
Peter Stastny | C | 0 | 0 |
Scott Stevens | D | 2 | 3 | 1988-1994 | 1992-2001

League leaders:

Name | Season wins | Years | Season SO | Years | Playoff SO | Years
Johnny Bower | 33 | 60-61 | | | 2, 2, 1 | 63, 64, 67
Frank Brimsek | 33, 31 | 38-39 to 39-40 | 10, 6 | 38-39, 40-41 | 1 | 41
George Hainsworth | 26, 25, 26, 30 | 27-28, 31-32, 33-34, 34-35 | 14, 22 | 26-27, 28-29 | 3, 2, 2 | 30, 31*, 35**
Bernie Parent | 47, 44 | 73-74 to 74-75 | 12, 12, 7 | 73-74 to 77-78 | 2, 4 | 74***, 75

* tied with Charlie Gardiner
** tied with Alec Connell
*** tied with Tony Esposito

Career PPG

Name | PPG | Rank all time
Johnny Bucyk | 0.89 | 106
Sprague Cleghorn | 0.53 | N/A
Sergei Fedorov | 0.96 | 76
Peter Forsberg | 1.25 | 8
Aurel Joliat | 0.70 | N/A
Ted Kennedy | 0.81 | 160
Elmer Lach | 0.94 | 80
Gilbert Perreault | 1.11 | 21
Peter Stastny | 1.27 | 6
Scott Stevens | 0.56 | N/A

Playoff GWG

Name | GWG | Years
Sergei Fedorov | 4 | 1997*
Peter Forsberg | 4, 4 | 2002, 2000**

* tied with Claude Lemieux
** tied with Jaromir Jagr and Brett Hull

Playoff points leaders

Name | Points | Years
Sprague Cleghorn | 3 | 1925*
Sergei Fedorov | 24 | 1995
Peter Forsberg | 27, 24 | 2002, 1999
Ted Kennedy | 14 | 1948
Elmer Lach | 17 | 1946

* tied with Howie Morenz

Single season records

Name | Goals | Points | +/-
Johhny Bucyk | 51 | 116 | 36
Sprague Cleghorn | 17 | 26 | N/A
Sergei Fedorov | 56 | 120 | 49
Peter Forsberg | 30 | 116 | 52
Aurel Joliat | 30 | 41 | N/A
Ted Kennedy | 29 | 61 | N/A
Elmer Lach | 30 | 80 | N/A
Gilbert Perreault | 44 | 113 | 32
Peter Stastny | 47 | 139 | 28
Scott Stevens | 21 | 78 | 53

I'm thinking that I may go with all those playoff points leaders this time - Cleghorn, Fedorov, Forsberg, Kennedy and Lach. Mikhailov will probably also get a vote. And I'll also try to include a goalie, possibly Brimsek. How am I supposed to make room to vote for Stastny and Joliat? I'll need to think about this for a while...

Re: Denis Savard. He was one of many talented forwards during the era in which he played. He only made the second all-star team once (considering his competition, that's probably perfectly normal). Sometimes stats don't tell the entire story. He was very good during his career, but was he ever an elite player? I expect Serge Savard to make the list before Denis does.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

If you voted for Sakic over Yzerman, I don't see why you'd vote for Fedorov over Forsberg. Foppa has been injured a lot - get over it (I didn't mean for that to sound as hostile as it probably does).

I agree, Forsberg will very likely get my vote before Fedorov does. Outside of 1993-94, Fedorov was not amongst the very best in the world. Probably top 10 a couple of other years, but that's it. From 1996 to the lockout in 2004 Forsberg's name was always in the conversation about who the league's best player was. As good as Fedorov was in the playoffs, Forsberg was better. Twice he led the playoffs in points in years where his team didn't even reach the final.

Re: Denis Savard. He was one of many talented forwards during the era in which he played. He only made the second all-star team once (considering his competition, that's probably perfectly normal). Sometimes stats don't tell the entire story. He was very good during his career, but was he ever an elite player? I expect Serge Savard to make the list before Denis does.

I would say Savard was absolutely an elite player. Five season in the top seven in the scoring race and a superb producer in the playoffs. I had him within my top 100 on the original list.

Before arguments, a few players stand out to me. I was killing brain cells trying to choose between Kennedy, Lach, Joliat, and Stastny in the last vote, so I expect all four of them to get my vote this time around, but the order is up in the air. I also like the three netminders Brimsek, Bower, and Hainsworth. I've seen Cleghorn pimped in previous votes, so I'm eagerly awaiting his arguments. Mikhailov is a bit of an unknown, but he should definitely be in the discussion at this point, and I'm liking Forsberg too. Should be another week of killing brain cells

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Here's my comparison of Fedorov, Forsberg, Joliat, Kennedy, Lach, Stastny. I'm excluding Perreault because I think he's a bit weaker than the seven I mentioned. I'm excluding Mikhailov because he never played in the NHL (I plan on voting for him, I'm just keeping this comparison as simple as possible).

Goal-scoring

1. Joliat. Easily the best goal-scorer here. Seven seasons in the top ten, four in the top five. Retired 3rd all-time in goals.
2. Lach. Three years in the top ten. Sixth in goal-scoring during the span of his career.
3. Bucyk. Obviously Orr had a lot to do with his late success, but still had three top-ten years prior to Orr's explosion in 1970.
4. Stastny. Consistently just outside of the top ten.
5. Fedorov. Consistently good (10 years between 30 and 39 goals) with one enormous season (3rd in the league with 56 goals).
6. Kennedy. Got off to a good start, but stopped scoring goals after age 23.
7. Forsberg. Never an elite goal-scorer at the NHL level.

Playmaking

1. Lach. Three-time assist leader with seven years in the top five. Some of this was during WW2, though.
2. Forsberg. Seven years in the top ten. Turned Hejduk into a RR winner. Never scored less than 50 assists when healthy.
3. Joliat. Eight years in the top ten. Retired 4th in assists.
4. Stastny. Seven years in the top ten. Only Gretzky was better in the eighties. (Top four are virtually interchangeable).
5. Kennedy. Five years in the top ten, leading playmaker in 1951.
6. Bucyk. Three years in the top ten prior to Orr, with weak linemates.
7. Fedorov. Consistently good, but never great.

Overall offense

1. Lach. Two Art Rosses (one from WW2); only Richard outscoring him during span of his career.
2. Stastny. Only Gretzky was better in the 1980s.
3. Joliat. Nine years in the top ten. Retired 3rd all-time in scoring.
4. Forsberg. Can't give him credit for what he didn't actually accomplish, so only six elite years as a scorer.
5. Bucyk. Probably better than most would expect pre-1970 (three years as a top ten scorer, 9th in scoring during that span).
6. Kennedy. Inconsistent, but still managed four years in the top ten.
7. Fedorov. Consistently good with two huge years.

Defense/intangibles

1. Fedorov. Two Selke trophies; looked good as a defenseman.
2. Kennedy. See my post from last time; known as a great defensive player, faceoff winner, and aggressive checker.
3. Forsberg. Good defensively and hard to knock off the puck.
4. Joliat. Good enough defensively to break up plays and lead the transition; small but never backed down.
5. Bucyk. Good along the boards; like Charlie Conacher, used his strength but never had a mean streak.
6. Lach. Battled through injuries most of his carer.
7. Stastny. Intangibles don't really add to/detract from his legacy.

Playoffs
1. Kennedy. Five times in the top five in playoff scoring; earned three retro Conn Smythes.
2. Lach. Twice led the playoffs in assists. Only Richard scored more during span of his career. One retro Smythe.
3. Forsberg. Twice led the playoffs in points despite not making the finals. Only Sakic scored more during span of his career.
4. Fedorov. Led playoffs in G, A or P four times; four 20-point playoffs; 3rd to Sakic and Forsberg during career.
5. Bucyk. From 1969 to 1974, finished 3rd or higher in team scoring all six years, providing good, consistent secondary scoring for Bruins.
6. Stastny. Doesn't really add to/detract from his legacy.
7. Joliat. Won three Cups but his offense, relative to his peer group, dropped significantly.

Awards
1. Kennedy. One Hart, four Hart nominations, three all-star selections, three Smythes.
2. Lach. One Hart, three nominations, five all-star selections, one Smythe.
3. Joliat. One Hart, three nominations, four all-star selections (possibly a few AS-calibre years before '31).
4. Fedorov. One Hart, two Hart nominations, one all-star selection, two Selkes.
5. Forsberg. One Hart, one Hart nomination, three all-star selections.
6. Stastny. One Hart nomination. To give him credit for the fact that he faced off against Gretzky for awards, note that Stastny was a three-time third team all-star, but I still think he's weaker than all but Bucyk.
7. Bucyk. No Hart nominations, two all-star selections, three third-team selections.

If we assign a simple score where 1st place in a category is worth 6 pts, etc., the scores are:

Lach- 34
Joliat- 27
Kennedy- 27
Forsberg- 24
Fedorov- 20
Stastny- 19
Bucyk- 17

This of course assumes that each category is equal (probably not true) and doesn't take into account whether the player is far ahead of/behind the others. In other words: those numbers are a rough guide, I'm not saying (for example) that Fedorov at 20 is definitely better than Stastny at 19.

 

[MXD]

HO, I like Joliat, I plan on voting for Joliat, and I absolutely respect what you're doing here, but when rating him, take account that he played with Morenz...

 

[canucks4ever]

Im surprised Fedorov is being mentioned before Selanne. I thought Teemu was the one with the better overall career. Shouldnt fed's string of 60 point seasons be held against him. This guys was elite for two seasons.

 

[nik jr]

some arguments for cleghorn:


he was generally considered the best or among the best d-men before eddie shore.

Hockey Outsider reported from newspapers from the '30s:

The consensus was that Shore is roughly on the same level as Hod Stuart, Sprague Cleghorn, Cyclone Taylor, etc., as one of the greatest defensemen ever. Keep in mind that this was written before Shore won three more Hart trophies.

pitseleh reported a similar thing from old papers, citing '20s-'30s hockey writer red mackenzie:

Well, I just came across Mackenzie's defenseman article, and this is what he had to say (interestingly, he notes that it's very difficult to compare players from before the forward pass to after it because of the big changes in style of play):

- Eddie Shore and Sprague Cleghorn are the best all around defensemen he has seen. Both were steady blockers, better than average pasers and goal scoring threats every second they were on the ice. He goes on to talk about their glaring weakness as being penalty prone and how it has cost their teams games in the past.

charles coleman, author of "trail of the stanley cup," picked cleghorn and ernie johnson as the 2 best d-men from 1893-1926.
johnson was a star in the PCHA.


cleghorn played his best seasons before the hart trophy was awarded, but he was a close runner up in '24 and '26.

he scored a point per game in 6 seasons, and scored over a goal per game in '15. he was also the 1st NHL d-man to lead his team in scoring ('22).

he was a brilliant skater who learned from cyclone taylor.

if the norris had existed, it would be a safe bet that he'd have won several.


cleghorn was also a very dirty player. i once read a bit of a book by king clancy, where clancy described an enraged cleghorn skating around butt-ending every opposition player in the ribs.
when ottawa traded him, he got revenge by injuring 4 ottawa players the next time he played against them.

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

Here's my comparison of Fedorov, Forsberg, Joliat, Kennedy, Lach, Stastny. I'm exluding Bucyk and Perreault because I think they're a bit weaker than the six I mentioned. I'm excluding Mikhailov because he never played in the NHL (I plan on voting for him, I'm just keeping this comparison as simple as possible).

Goal-scoring

1. Joliat. Easily the best goal-scorer here. Seven seasons in the top ten, four in the top five. Retired 3rd all-time in goals.
2. Lach. Three years in the top ten. Sixth in goal-scoring during the span of his career.
3. Bucyk. Obviously Orr had a lot to do with his late success, but still had three top-ten years prior to Orr's explosion in 1970.
4. Stastny. Consistently just outside of the top ten.
5. Fedorov. Consistently good (10 years between 30 and 39 goals) with one enormous season (3rd in the league with 56 goals).
6. Kennedy. Got off to a good start, but stopped scoring goals after age 23.
7. Forsberg. Never an elite goal-scorer at the NHL level.

Playmaking

1. Lach. Three-time assist leader with seven years in the top five. Some of this was during WW2, though.
2. Forsberg. Seven years in the top ten. Turned Hejduk into a RR winner. Never scored less than 50 assists when healthy.
3. Joliat. Eight years in the top ten. Retired 4th in assists.
4. Stastny. Seven years in the top ten. Only Gretzky was better in the eighties. (Top four are virtually interchangeable).
5. Kennedy. Five years in the top ten, leading playmaker in 1951.
6. Bucyk. Three years in the top ten prior to Orr, with weak linemates.
7. Fedorov. Consistently good, but never great.

Overall offense

1. Lach. Two Art Rosses (one from WW2); only Richard outscoring him during span of his career.
2. Stastny. Only Gretzky was better in the 1980s.
3. Joliat. Nine years in the top ten. Retired 3rd all-time in scoring.
4. Forsberg. Can't give him credit for what he didn't actually accomplish, so only six elite years as a scorer.
5. Bucyk. Probably better than most would expect pre-1970 (three years as a top ten scorer, 9th in scoring during that span).
6. Kennedy. Inconsistent, but still managed four years in the top ten.
7. Fedorov. Consistently good with two huge years.

Defense/intangibles

1. Fedorov. Two Selke trophies; looked good as a defenseman.
2. Kennedy. See my post from last time; known as a great defensive player, faceoff winner, and aggressive checker.
3. Forsberg. Good defensively and hard to knock off the puck.
4. Joliat. Good enough defensively to break up plays and lead the transition; small but never backed down.
5. Bucyk. Good along the boards; like Charlie Conacher, used his strength but never had a mean streak.
6. Lach. Battled through injuries most of his carer.
7. Stastny. Intangibles don't really add to/detract from his legacy.

Playoffs
1. Kennedy. Five times in the top five in playoff scoring; earned three retro Conn Smythes.
2. Lach. Twice led the playoffs in assists. Only Richard scored more during span of his career. One retro Smythe.
3. Forsberg. Twice led the playoffs in points despite not making the finals. Only Sakic scored more during span of his career.
4. Fedorov. Led playoffs in G, A or P four times; four 20-point playoffs; 3rd to Sakic and Forsberg during career.
5. Bucyk. From 1969 to 1974, finished 3rd in team scoring all six years, providing good, consistent secondary scoring for Bruins.
6. Stastny. Doesn't really add to/detract from his legacy.
7. Joliat. Won three Cups but his offense, relative to his peer group, dropped significantly.

Awards
1. Kennedy. One Hart, four Hart nominations, three all-star selections, three Smythes.
2. Lach. One Hart, three nominations, five all-star selections, one Smythe.
3. Joliat. One Hart, three nominations, four all-star selections (possibly a few AS-calibre years before '31).
4. Fedorov. One Hart, two Hart nominations, one all-star selection, two Selkes.
5. Forsberg. One Hart, one Hart nomination, three all-star selections.
6. Stastny. One Hart nomination. To give him credit for the fact that he faced off against Gretzky for awards, note that Stastny was a three-time third team all-star, but I still think he's the weakest here.
7. Bucyk. No Hart nominations, two all-star selections, three third-team selections.

If we assign a simple score where 1st place in a category is worth 6 pts, etc., the scores are:

Lach- 34
Joliat- 27
Kennedy- 27
Forsberg- 24
Fedorov- 20
Stastny- 19
Bucyk- 17

This of course assumes that each category is equal (probably not true) and doesn't take into account whether the player is far ahead of/behind the others. In other words: those numbers are a rough guide, I'm not saying (for example) that Fedorov at 20 is definitely better than Stastny at 19.

Nice analysis but I think Stastny's playoff performances are really underrated. He really carried the Nords on his shoulders and they were never really considered strong cup contenders but still had some deep runs due to him. Great PPG pace in the playoffs.

 

[BM67]

Here is a comparison of players to the guy who finished 2nd in the league in goals, assists and points each season. Consider it a shorthand version of adjusted points.

Example: Iginla 52 goals= 1.268293 points, Guerin, Sundin & Murray 41 goals= 1 point each, Naslund 40 goals= 0.97561 points

TG= Total goals value; HG= Highest single season goals value; H3G= Highest 3 consecutive years goals total; CAG= Career average goals, TG/years. A & P stand for assists and points. These are regular season numbers only.

Player|TG|HG|H3G|CAG|TA|HA|H3A|CAA|TP|HP|H3P|CAP
Johnny Bucyk|12.80398|1|2.409231|0.557|13.87321|0.855263|2.352568|0.603|13.91908|0.894231|2.438165|0.605
Sprague Cleghorn NHL|3.094618|0.548387|1.423387|0.309|4.483333|0.666667|1.833333|0.448|3.868127|0.666667|1.688406|0.387
Sprague Cleghorn NHA|2.634616|0.7|1.447097|0.376|3.415385|1.5|2.8|0.854|3.104042|0.970588|1.852221|0.443
Sprague Cleghorn Total|5.729234|0.7|1.447097|0.337|7.898718|1.5|2.8|0.564|6.972169|0.970588|1.852221|0.41
Sergei Fedorov|9.441006|0.982456|2.262195|0.555|9.424665|0.761905|2.182853|0.554|10.33408|1|2.432407|0.608
Peter Forsberg|5.156683|0.681818|1.711607|0.43|9.411164|1.184615|2.79063|0.784|8.360835|1.019231|2.695533|0.697
Aurel Joliat|10.32765|1|2.544643|0.645|8.948517|0.814815|2.319865|0.559|11.13484|1|2.567978|0.696
Ted Kennedy|7.134146|0.933333|2.458974|0.51|7.920436|1|2.452381|0.566|8.054143|0.924242|2.315547|0.575
Elmer Lach|6.743889|1|2.079167|0.482|10.37267|1.35|3.483333|0.741|9.384843|1.09589|2.934801|0.67
Boris Mikhailov|10.44955|1.176471|3.079696|0.871|6.757862|0.9375|2.434211|0.614|9.655328|1|2.75|0.805
Gilbert Perreault|9.072492|0.785714|2.255728|0.534|10.35088|0.971831|2.450092|0.609|10.49929|0.94958|2.484174|0.618
Peter Stastny|7.390552|0.821429|2.2523|0.493|8.939352|1|2.749007|0.596|9.227448|1|2.890023|0.615
Scott Stevens|3.421963|0.315789|0.788499|0.156|8.867841|0.714286|1.855666|0.403|7.418645|0.65|1.51481|0.337

Cleghorn played 7 years in the NHA and assists were recorded only in the last 4 years.

Mikhailov's numbers cover only from 69-70 (70-71 for assists) to 80-81. He played 4 years in the USSR top league and 2 years with the national team before that.

For fairness, here are the defensemen compared to only the other defensemen each year.

Player|TG|HG|H3G|CAG|TA|HA|H3A|CAA|TP|HP|H3P|CAP
Sprague Cleghorn|7.25754|1.066667|2.9|0.726|6.287698|1|2.388889|0.629|6.940129|1.05|2.48913|0.694
Scott Stevens|8.411797|0.772727|1.945035|0.382|12.1272|1|2.81681|0.551|11.76389|0.906667|2.527223|0.535

Cleghorn's numbers cover only his NHL career.

By request here are the same numbers equated to 1 point = 50 goals, 70 assists, 120 points.

Player|TG|HG|H3G|CAG|TA|HA|H3A|CAA|TP|HP|H3P|CAP
Johnny Bucyk|640.2|50|120.46|27.85|971.12|59.87|164.68|42.21|1670.29|107.31|292.58|72.6
Sprague Cleghorn NHL|154.73|27.42|71.17|15.45|313.83|46.67|128.33|31.36|464.18|80|202.61|46.44
Sprague Cleghorn NHA|131.73|35|72.35|18.8|239.08|105|196|59.78|372.49|116.47|222.27|53.16
Sprague Cleghorn Total|286.46|35|72.35|16.85|552.91|105|196|39.48|836.66|116.47|222.27|49.2
Sergei Fedorov|472.05|49.12|113.11|27.75|659.73|53.33|152.8|38.78|1240.09|120|291.89|72.96
Peter Forsberg|257.83|34.09|85.58|21.5|658.78|82.92|195.34|54.88|1003.3|122.31|323.46|83.64
Aurel Joliat|516.38|50|127.23|32.25|626.4|57.04|162.39|39.13|1336.18|120|308.16|83.52
Ted Kennedy|356.71|46.67|122.95|25.5|554.43|70|171.67|39.62|966.5|110.91|277.87|69
Elmer Lach|337.19|50|103.96|24.1|726.09|94.5|243.83|51.87|1126.18|131.51|352.18|80.4
Boris Mikhailov|522.48|58.82|153.98|43.55|473.05|65.62|170.39|42.98|1158.64|120|330|96.6
Gilbert Perreault|453.62|39.29|112.79|26.7|724.56|68.03|171.51|42.63|1259.91|113.95|298.1|74.16
Peter Stastny|369.53|41.07|112.62|24.65|625.75|70|192.43|41.72|1107.29|120|346.8|73.8
Scott Stevens|171.1|15.79|39.42|7.8|620.75|50|129.9|28.21|890.24|78|181.78|40.44

And the same for the D vs D.

Player|TG|HG|H3G|CAG|TA|HA|H3A|CAA|TP|HP|H3P|CAP
Sprague Cleghorn|362.88|53.33|145|36.3|440.14|70|167.22|44.03|832.82|126|298.7|83.28
Scott Stevens|420.59|38.64|97.25|19.1|848.9|70|197.18|38.57|1411.67|108.8|303.27|64.2

 

[pappyline]

If we assign a simple score where 1st place in a category is worth 6 pts, etc., the scores are:

Lach- 34
Joliat- 27
Kennedy- 27
Forsberg- 24
Fedorov- 20
Stastny- 19
Bucyk- 17

This of course assumes that each category is equal (probably not true) and doesn't take into account whether the player is far ahead of/behind the others. In other words: those numbers are a rough guide, I'm not saying (for example) that Fedorov at 20 is definitely better than Stastny at 19.

pretty nice analysis & very helpful. Here are my choices at this point:

1.Joliat
2.kennedy
3.Perrault
4.Forsberg
5.Stastny
6.Lach
7.Brimsek

But where is busher jackson?

 

[Stonefly]

Not to harp on the Savard thing but I'm just curious what separates him and Stastny. Using my eyes I would take Savard but it would be really close. However even using stats and such I don't really see much difference. I keep hearing people say Stastny was second to Gretzky in the 80's. I could be wrong but I think Savard was third or fourth and the difference from Stastny and Savard wasn't much. I would say Savard is actually one of the very best physically talented players I've seen.
So again just curious what is elevating Stastny? Anyone have thoughts on that?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Not to harp on the Savard thing but I'm just curious what separates him and Stastny. Using my eyes I would take Savard but it would be really close. However even using stats and such I don't really see much difference. I keep hearing people say Stastny was second to Gretzky in the 80's. I could be wrong but I think Savard was third or fourth and the difference from Stastny and Savard wasn't much. I would say Savard is actually one of the very best physically talented players I've seen.
So again just curious what is elevating Stastny? Anyone have thoughts on that?

Stastny wasn't as exciting as Savard. But he was big and strong and utilized his teammates better. In points per game category, Stastny is 6th, Savard 18th. Goals created per game, Stastny 10th, Savard 30th.

Being a Bruins fan and a Whalers season ticket holder during Stastny's career, I saw him a lot. Maybe I'm a little bias becasue he killed both the B's and the Whale.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

There's Sergei ... right on time. I had Joliat, Lach and (IIRC) Bower on my last list, so they'll be 1-3 for me to start. Fedorov is the forward I wish more kids would try to emulate, he had absolutely everything. Great skater, great scorer, great all-around player. 13 straight seasons Fedorov was (or was fractionally close to being) a point-per-game player in the playoffs. That's second only to Gretzky's 14 (unless I'm missing someone). Fedorov's three Cups are money. We all know his stats. The MVP / Selke thing was sick.

Three other things stick out when we're talking "greatness" --
1) Name a skater with a better looking stride than Sergei's. Modano maybe. Lafleur maybe. That's it. The guy was lightning, and when I think about great skating, I think about Sergei.
2) Remember too the Nike endorsements and his white skates ... Sergei had what Crosby has now; he was the pretty boy of the NHL and was a commercial star.
3) Anna Kournikova. Like everybody not named Sergei and Anna, I don't know for sure what the deal was ... were they actually married? Dunno, but being romantically linked to one of the hottest pieces of ass on the planet does not hurt your legacy.

My case for Sergei over most of the guys on this list is the same as my case for Gordie over Gretzky and Orr -- why not? Tell me something you DON'T like about Gordie, and tell me something you DON'T like about Sergei. He could be the best player on the ice in any situation ... one of only a couple dozen players in hockey history who fit that mold.

He's the poster boy for "how do you define great". At his best, in his best season, an all-time great. Yet, only two 100 point seasons, less than a point a game for his career.

What if the Soviet Union didn't crumble, and Federov spent 15 years with Mogilny and Bure as his linemates? Do you think we might be rating all 3 a lot higher?