WC: Roster Talk '13 — Denmark

[Bank]

Have been lurking around here once in awhile for some time, but seeing it stated that DEN could get relegated if finishing above SLO in the group over and over made me join! (Boredom might plays some part too, but hey...)

IIHF Format & Rules

On relegation:


On the final ranking:


So the last placed team in Helsinki will rank lower then Denmark (if Slovenia finishes 8th), no matter the number of points... right?

First: A big welcome! We can use all the Danes we can get on here Please do contribute in the section under "Northern Europe" also. I'm getting outnumbered to often

Secondly. I'm afraid the number in group-thing only counts in QF-ranking. As I read it the rules a pretty black-and-white. The two teams with the lowest number of points goes down.

But the rest of the tie breakers could easily be in play - and if numbers of goals scored is the second tie breaker we would be behind Austria right now. And with the current score in Latvia-Slovakia still ahead. Before the game Latvia was at -12 and Denmark are -3 after the Czech game.

The goalscore-thing could VERY MUCH be important. The tie breaker behind that is goal scored. Here Denmark could get into trouble. Let's hope we get a point or two against Belarus and the whole thing won't matter.

 

[Justinov]

Have been lurking around here once in awhile for some time, but seeing it stated that DEN could get relegated if finishing above SLO in the group over and over made me join! (Boredom might plays some part too, but hey...)

IIHF Format & Rules

On relegation:


On the final ranking:


So the last placed team in Helsinki will rank lower then Denmark (if Slovenia finishes 8th), no matter the number of points... right?

It's based on the formulation: "The overall bottom ranked two teams will be relegated to the 2014 IIHF Ice Hockey World Championship Division I Group A."

It's the overall, not last placed in each group.

Last year it was formulated this way:
"The last-placed team of each group will be relegated to the 2013 IIHF Ice Hockey World Championship Division Group A."

The ranking system is for the next WC and has nothing to do with who goes up and down. A lower ranking team can be in Elite and a higher ranking can be relegated.

and a big welcome here. Hope you will keep posting!

 

[DK Rookie]

Thanks...

But still:

The gold medal game and bronze medal game will determine the final ranking for the top-4 teams. The eliminated teams from the preliminary round plus the losing teams of the quarter-finals will be ranked following their positions in the groups preceding the quarter-final round.

The final ranking will follow the following procedure:

1. Higher position in the group,
2. Higher number of points,
3. Better goal difference,
4. Higher number of goals scored for,
5. Better seeding number

Meaning (unless I'm completely lost here) that it's the two 8th placed teams that are ranked lowest (15th-16th), the 7th placed ranked 13th-14th and so on. But someone call the IIHF, please!

 

[Justinov]

Damn we are in trouble now since Latvia has 3-1 over Slovakia.
Gives:
France 6 points.
Germany 4 points.
Austria 3 points.
Latvia (3 points) if they win this.

France-Latvia Germany-Latvia, France-Germany still need to play.
Austria have Slovakia, Finland and Russia left so hopefully 4 points should be enough.

 

[Justinov]

Thanks...

But still:



Meaning (unless I'm completely lost here) that it's the two 8th placed teams that are ranked lowest (15th-16th), the 7th placed ranked 13th-14th and so on. But someone call the IIHF, please!

Probably mean that we can be ranked 11-12'th or 13-14th and still go down! That would be so ridiculous that IIHF probably would have to change the rules back?!

The ranking is another set of rules than the relegation rules, so it would be very interesting what IIHF does if a strange situation arises.
Hopefully we beat Belarus so we avoid these technicalities.

 

[DK Rookie]

Probably mean that we can be ranked 11-12'th or 13-14th and still go down! That would be so ridiculous that IIHF probably would have to change the rules back?!

The ranking is another set of rules than the relegation rules, so it would be very interesting what IIHF does if a strange situation arises.
Hopefully we beat Belarus so we avoid these technicalities.

It's not about the World Ranking! It's the ranking for the tournament... points are given to the teams after this ranking (1st-16th) and added to their points total (with some % of different years and such), but just to be clear: I'm not quoting rules regarding the World Ranking


From: Format & Rules

The IIHF World Ranking will be produced after the IIHF Ice Hockey World Championship. It is based on the rankings of the four most recent IIHF Ice Hockey World Championships and of the last Olympic men’s ice hockey tournament (including qualification tournaments).

 

[Justinov]

It's not about the World Ranking! It's the ranking for the tournament... points are given to the teams after this ranking (1st-16th) and added to their points total (with some % of different years and such), but just to be clear: I'm not quoting rules regarding the World Ranking


From: Format & Rules

Yeah it says Final Ranking/World Ranking - though I still think it is meant for the calculation of world ranking.
It clearly clashed with the relegation rule if we understand that BOTH final ranking AND world ranking is first to be determined by "higher position in each group" and thereafter "higher number of points".

You have a point - can be understood either way it seems, but sadly I think the relegation rule apply first?!

 

[oksun]

Damn we are in trouble now since Latvia has 3-1 over Slovakia.
Gives:
France 6 points.
Germany 4 points.
Austria 3 points.
Latvia (3 points) if they win this.

France-Latvia Germany-Latvia, France-Germany still need to play.
Austria have Slovakia, Finland and Russia left so hopefully 4 points should be enough.

Don't worry!!! Denmark can't go Down when where are ahead of Slovenia, and that's because when Denmark beeing nr. 7 you have to compare to nr. 8 in our own Group and only if BLR are going to be nr. 8 and Denmark are nr.7 then you have to compare to the other group

 

[Justinov]

Don't worry!!! Denmark can't go Down when where are ahead of Slovenia, and that's because when Denmark beeing nr. 7 you have to compare to nr. 8 in our own Group and only if BLR are going to be nr. 8 and Denmark are nr.7 then you have to compare to the other group

I hope that is true...but they did change the text in the relegation rules from last year.
So I guess we need an official IIHF guy to settle it.....

 

[DK Rookie]

Yeah it says Final Ranking/World Ranking - though I still think it is meant for the calculation of world ranking.
It clearly clashed with the relegation rule if we understand that BOTH final ranking AND world ranking is first to be determined by "higher position in each group" and thereafter "higher number of points".

You have a point - can be understood either way it seems, but sadly I think the relegation rule apply first?!

Which relegation rule? It states the bottom two ranked teams go out, and then says the first tie-breaker for the final ranking (5th-16th place) is the position within the group... It's the IIHF's own rules for the tournament. Please give me the wording of the rule that states it's points only that determines who goes down...

Guess we'll see at the end of the tournament if nothing else...

 

[Bank]

Are you guys changeling that two team from the same group can't go down?

I'm on the same page as Justinov. Otherwise I see no reason why they wouldn't write the two last places teams goes down. The ranking thing is the ranking that determines seeds next year.

I think. You've made me unsure. Still have my money on two teams from the same group can go down though.

 

[Justinov]

Which relegation rule? It states the bottom two ranked teams go out, and then says the first tie-breaker for the final ranking (5th-16th place) is the position within the group... It's the IIHF's own rules for the tournament. Please give me the wording of the rule that states it's points only that determines who goes down...

Guess we'll see at the end of the tournament if nothing else...

True.
Strange why they changed the formulation in the regulation rules if there is no change?
The "ranking rules" are actually unchanged from 2012-13.

 

[oksun]

Are you guys changeling that two team from the same group can't go down?

I'm on the same page as Justinov. Otherwise I see no reason why they wouldn't write the two last places teams goes down. The ranking thing is the ranking that determines seeds next year.

I think. You've made me unsure. Still have my money on two teams from the same group can go down though.

2 teams can go Down from the same Group if BLR are being nr. 8 in our Group

 

[Justinov]

Are you guys changeling that two team from the same group can't go down?

I'm on the same page as Justinov. Otherwise I see no reason why they wouldn't write the two last places teams goes down. The ranking thing is the ranking that determines seeds next year.

I think. You've made me unsure. Still have my money on two teams from the same group can go down though.

I'm very unsure now:

Change 2012-2013: Regulation formulation.
The last-placed team of each group will be relegated to the 2013 IIHF Ice Hockey World Championship Division Group A.
AND
The overall bottom ranked two teams will be relegated to the 2014 IIHF Ice Hockey World Championship Division I Group A.

No change 2012-2013: Final Ranking/World Ranking

Final Ranking / World Ranking
The gold medal game and bronze medal game will determine the final ranking for the top-4 teams. The eliminated teams from the preliminary round plus the losing teams of the quarter-finals will be ranked following their positions in the groups preceding the quarter-final round.

The final ranking will follow the following procedure:

1. Higher position in the group,
2. Higher number of points,
3. Better goal difference,
4. Higher number of goals scored for,
5. Better seeding number


Maybe the "regulation" formulation stats the same because of the "final ranking", but why make the change so it can be misunderstood?? The old relegation rule was crystalclear!

BUT maybe the final ranking is still only for calculating World ranking for next WC?! Not he is relegated. even if relegated you still get a ranking.

 

[DK Rookie]

True.
Strange why they changed the formulation in the regulation rules if there is no change?
The "ranking rules" are actually unchanged from 2012-13.

The last placed teams in the two groups and the two lowest ranked teams are the same thing (as I read it!), guess the fact that BLR can't go down this year made them change the wording just in case they finish 8th?

 

[Bank]

If that is the case we're getting all worked up about nothing Justinov

I'm still not sold on it though. Searching for confirmation.

 

[Bank]

The last placed teams in the two groups and the two lowest ranked teams are the same thing (as I read it!), guess the fact that BLR can't go down this year made them change the wording just in case they finish 8th?

It isn't a new thing that the host country can go down? Right? Remember a relegation-group we avoided(Or just plain won) with a to-be-host-country in it that couldn't go down.

Everything is at question right now. We might be closer to Minsk '14 than 15 minutes ago in my head

 

[Justinov]

2 teams can go Down from the same Group if BLR are being nr. 8 in our Group

But not if Belarus gets 7'th.....?

How do you intepret the rules to that outcome?

 

[Justinov]

If that is the case we're getting all worked up about nothing Justinov

I'm still not sold on it though. Searching for confirmation.

Well I truly hope it is correct, I would start being less nervous

 

[DK Rookie]

It isn't a new thing that the host country can go down? Right? Remember a relegation-group we avoided(Or just plain won) with a to-be-host-country in it that couldn't go down.

Everything is at question right now. We might be closer to Minsk '14 than 15 minutes ago in my head

Yeah, but that was a different format right? Relegation play after 4 groups of 4... if I remember correctly (big if!)...

 

[Bank]

But not if Belarus gets 7'th.....?

How do you intepret the rules to that outcome?

I think he means that only in the other group can two teams get relegated.

 

[Justinov]

I think he means that only in the other group can two teams get relegated.

Ah ok - got it!!

It will mean an interesting wait, who will actually go down when the preliminary round is over with.

 

[Bank]

Yeah, but that was a different format right? Relegation play after 4 groups of 4... if I remember correctly (big if!)...

That could maybe make sense. I'm gonna wait to pass any judgement until I've gotten some confirmation from a official source

 

[oksun]

But not if Belarus gets 7'th.....?

How do you intepret the rules to that outcome?

If Den are 8 after Blr, Den goes Down. if Den are 7 and Blr are 8 then you have to compare 7 and 7 in the other Group and if Den are better than the other 7, then 2 teams fro Helsinki Group go down

 

[Justinov]

If Den are 8 after Blr, Den goes Down. if Den are 7 and Blr are 8 then you have to compare 7 and 7 in the other Group and if Den are better than the other 7, then 2 teams fro Helsinki Group go down

Thanks I understood what you mean!