Roster Speculation 2017-18 - Seven Deadly Roster Sins Edition

[Husko]

I think Scandella should be paired on the second pairing with Antipin. Antipin is similar to Spurgeon , whom Scandella spent most of his time with if I recall. Both are undersized, speedy, offensive defensemen with decent d play. Putting those two together could be advantageous

Like the idea, but the potential of a beaulieu/bogosian pairing scares me to death

Also, it either puts Antipin (being with Scandella) or Risto in the defensive deployment position. As I said previously, I want to spare Risto that, and if there is one thing Antipin is certainly not well suited for it is that. As much as he's not well suited for it, Bogosian is probably the one that falls into that role, if Scandella is used in such a way apart from Risto.

McCabe/Beaulieu-Risto
Scandella-Bogosian
M/B-Antipin

 

[Dreakon13]

Don't worry we're on the same page. Either you misread mine, or I got caught up in the sarcasm and misrepresented what I think.

My point was that the message suggesting that 'Antipin can't possibly play top 4 minutes because he's never played the NHL' is ridiculous. A guy doesn't have to play in the NHL to indicate he can succeed in the NHL. I brought up Eichel to show that every single player who enters the league doesn't have to start at the bottom.

Antipin isn't Eichel.

If he earns a top 4 spot for his play entering the season (camps, preseason, etc)... great. Maybe he adjusts to the NA game quickly, has better chemistry with other top 4 players on the team, or fits Housley's plans better than Bogosian. I don't understand the rationale of "it's his spot to lose" though. Shiny new toy syndrome.

 

[Jame]

Antipin isn't Eichel.

If he earns a top 4 spot for his play entering the season (camps, preseason, etc)... great. Maybe he has better chemistry with other top 4 players on this team, or fits Housley's plans better than Bogosian. I don't understand the rationale of "it's his spot to lose" though. Shiny new toy syndrome.

Antipin isn't a kid either.

 

[Dreakon13]

Antipin isn't a kid either.

If that means he's better prepared for NHL ice and can contribute in a greater capacity than Bogosian (without Bylsma)... again, great. Maybe we have so many top 4 players we dunno what to do with them all.

We don't know that though, no one really does. Why pencil him into a top 4 spot any less reluctantly than Bogo?


EDIT: For all his warts, Bogo actually was a top 4 player in the NHL at one point in his career. And he's only 27.

 

[Husko]

If that means he's better prepared for NHL ice and can contribute in a greater capacity than Bogosian (without Bylsma)... again, great. Maybe we have so many top 4 players we dunno what to do with them all.

We don't know that though, no one really does. Why pencil him into a top 4 spot any less reluctantly than Bogo?

Yeah, it's obviously a mostly academic debate. Whoever plays better between him and Bogosian will get more ice time.

 

[Dreakon13]

Yeah, it's obviously a mostly academic debate. Whoever plays better between him and Bogosian will get more ice time.

Well, if the question is "why aren't more people putting Antipin in the top 4" ... I'd say it's because we have no clue if he'll be any good over here yet (not just on this team, but on NHL ice). I don't think its a situation where it's insulting by starting him on the bottom pairing until he proves otherwise. The difference between middle pairing and bottom pairing on defense isn't, typically, as drastic of a difference stylistically/systemically than say... playing Eichel on the bottom line instead of the top 6 where he belongs.

Bogo, I think we know what we have with him. A guy that tops out in the middle pairing... in the right situation and if played to his strengths. So put him in the middle pairing, play to his strengths, and let Antipin prove he's better than that.

Am I looking at this irrationally?

 

[joshjull]

If that means he's better prepared for NHL ice and can contribute in a greater capacity than Bogosian (without Bylsma)... again, great. Maybe we have so many top 4 players we dunno what to do with them all.

We don't know that though, no one really does. Why pencil him into a top 4 spot any less reluctantly than Bogo?


EDIT: For all his warts, Bogo actually was a top 4 player in the NHL at one point in his career. And he's only 27.

I agree with your overall points in terms of Bogo vs Antipin. But I'm not sure why you phrased the bolded that way. Bogo has been a top 4 dman pretty much his entire career, including last season.

 

[Dreakon13]

I agree with your overall points in terms of Bogo vs Antipin. But I'm not sure why you phrased the bolded that way. Bogo has been a top 4 dman pretty much his entire career, including last season.

Because one would argue he didn't perform to the caliber that would be expected of a top 4 defenseman in this league, even if he technically did play there the last year or two.

EDIT: Whereas I think prior to Bylsma and prior to the Sabres, he was generally regarded as a player with the ability to play in the top 4.

 

[joshjull]

Because one would argue he didn't perform to the caliber that would be expected of a top 4 defenseman in this league, even if he technically did play there the last year or two.

EDIT: Whereas I think prior to Bylsma and prior to the Sabres, he was generally regarded as a player with the ability to play in the top 4.

If the last two years is the measure, then we have no top 4 dmen. All of the dmen that played big minutes were caved in in one form or another.

 

[Dreakon13]

If the last two years is the measure, then we have no top 4 dmen. All of the dmen that played big minutes were caved in in one form or another.

Well yeah, I agree using the last two years as some sort of bar is probably poor form (ie. not indicative of these guys actual ability/potential). Which is why I'm saying Bogo has at least some track record in the NHL vs Antipin, if we're drawing up lines before actually seeing anyone play.

 

[joshjull]

Well yeah, I agree using the last two years as some sort of bar is probably poor form (ie. not indicative of these guys actual ability/potential). Which is why I'm saying Bogo has at least some track record in the NHL vs Antipin, if we're drawing up lines before actually seeing anyone play.

My point is your argument is stronger than you're laying out because Bogo IS an established top 4 NHL dman not WAS one. He has been for almost his entire career including the last two years. He's not someone who had a run there at one point of his career and then moved back to a bottom pairing slot.

 

[dkollidas]

What are some lineup features you'd like 'penciled' in going into camp? If you were to draw up a skeleton, with some things set as a place to start from, and then to try things around, what would it be? A few of mine:

1) Eichel-ROR-Sam-Larsson as the 4 centers down the middle. I think those 4 down the middle could be our model for victory for many years to come. Now I just want to see it damnit.

2) Scandella on the second pairing, away from Risto. Yes, I think they could excel together. But as long as Risot has to play the toughest defensive minutes I don't think we'll ever see his full potential. Scandella is our best defensive dman, I want him on a second pairing draw matchups away from Risto, at least to start.

3) ROR/Okposo, Eichel/Girgensons, Reinhart/Pominville, and Larsson/Josefson as pairs to start out. ROR/Okposo played well together, Eichel/Girgensons have excelled in limited time together, I think Pominville would be a perfect fit with Reinhart on an easy matchups third line, and Josefson and LArsson could be 2/3 of an excellent defensive deployment 4th line.

So, my skeleton:


X-Eichel-Girgensons (ZG on RW presumably on RW because Moulson, Pouliot, and Kane all play LW)
X-ROR-Okposo
X-Reinhart-Pominville
Josefson-Larsson-X

Y-Risto
Scandella-Y
Y-Y

My Skeleton:

FORWARDS
Girgensons-Eichel-AAAA:
~Eichel is the franchise. Give him L1, and try Girgs on his wing. They seemed to mesh but Disco never let it stay together.

BBBB-O'Reilly-Okposo:
~O'Reilly Okposo seems like it should be a good start, putting Kane here is out of the question to me as he just has the puck on his stick too often, a player who will help facilitate would be a nice option here (Nylander in '18-'19?).

Kane-Reinhart-Pominville:
~I just like the idea of this as a 3rd line. The other two combos above above can be carried by their centermen. Easy minutes. Kane next to two high IQ players. Pommer on a 3rd line that can score. Reinhart at center with talented singers

Josefson-Larsson-CCCC:
~4th line, heavy d-zone minutes. Can put a lot of guys on that right wing and be a competent defensive group of forwards.

Candidates:
AAAA= Rodrigues, Baptiste, Bailey, Pouliot, Fasching, Nylander
- I think Rodrigues comes in a bit stronger and ready for pro play, and at least to start, they give him a shot on Eichel's wing.

BBBB= Pouliot, Bailey, Rodrigues, Fasching, Nylander
-Pouliot is an underachiever who might revive his game playing with two pros like this. Both are guys who just play a workermans game and I think

CCCC= Moulson, Rodrigues, Fasching, Bailey, Baptiste

DEFENSE:
Scandella-Ristolainen
McCabe-Antipin
Beaulieu-Bogosian

~ For me there's just not a lot of uncertainty here.

1st Pair:
Scandella to pair with Ristolainen. A guy who can deal with a heavy workload and tough matchups. A battler. Scandella gives Ristolainen that, which is something he's never had next to him (McCabe in spots, maybe).

2nd Pair:
McCabe with a solid puck mover in Antipin. I think Antipin will look at home having played professionally for a few seasons on a team like this playing up tempo with a guy in McCabe who is a jack of all trades, master of none.

3rd Pair:
Beaulieu and Bogosian form an interesting pair who are both reclamation projects in their own way. Might not be where Beaulieu wants to start, but I don't think he deserves to play above Scandella or McCabe.

GOALIE

Lehner-Johnson is obvious.

 

[Dreakon13]

My point is your argument is stronger than you're laying out because Bogo IS an established top 4 NHL dman not WAS one. He has been for almost his entire career including the last two years. He's not someone who had a run there at one point of his career and then moved back to a bottom pairing slot.

Then I guess you could say I was just proactively trying to take some wind out of the sails of anyone that would rebut that Bogosian "didn't play like a top 4 defenseman last year" as an argument for Antipin playing there, by emphasizing that Bogo did prior to coming here and is more proven in doing so than someone who has never played in the NHL at all.

 

[joshjull]

Then I guess you could say I was just proactively trying to take some wind out of the sails of anyone that would rebut that Bogosian "didn't play like a top 4 defenseman last year" as an argument for Antipin playing there, by emphasizing that he did prior to coming here and is more proven in doing so than someone who has never played in the NHL at all.

Fair enough

 

[BananaSquad]

My Skeleton:

FORWARDS
Girgensons-Eichel-AAAA:
~Eichel is the franchise. Give him L1, and try Girgs on his wing. They seemed to mesh but Disco never let it stay together.

BBBB-O'Reilly-Okposo:
~O'Reilly Okposo seems like it should be a good start, putting Kane here is out of the question to me as he just has the puck on his stick too often, a player who will help facilitate would be a nice option here (Nylander in '18-'19?).

Kane-Reinhart-Pominville:
~I just like the idea of this as a 3rd line. The other two combos above above can be carried by their centermen. Easy minutes. Kane next to two high IQ players. Pommer on a 3rd line that can score. Reinhart at center with talented singers

Josefson-Larsson-CCCC:
~4th line, heavy d-zone minutes. Can put a lot of guys on that right wing and be a competent defensive group of forwards.

Candidates:
AAAA= Rodrigues, Baptiste, Bailey, Pouliot, Fasching, Nylander
- I think Rodrigues comes in a bit stronger and ready for pro play, and at least to start, they give him a shot on Eichel's wing.

BBBB= Pouliot, Bailey, Rodrigues, Fasching, Nylander
-Pouliot is an underachiever who might revive his game playing with two pros like this. Both are guys who just play a workermans game and I think

CCCC= Moulson, Rodrigues, Fasching, Bailey, Baptiste

DEFENSE:
Scandella-Ristolainen
McCabe-Antipin
Beaulieu-Bogosian

~ For me there's just not a lot of uncertainty here.

1st Pair:
Scandella to pair with Ristolainen. A guy who can deal with a heavy workload and tough matchups. A battler. Scandella gives Ristolainen that, which is something he's never had next to him (McCabe in spots, maybe).

2nd Pair:
McCabe with a solid puck mover in Antipin. I think Antipin will look at home having played professionally for a few seasons on a team like this playing up tempo with a guy in McCabe who is a jack of all trades, master of none.

3rd Pair:
Beaulieu and Bogosian form an interesting pair who are both reclamation projects in their own way. Might not be where Beaulieu wants to start, but I don't think he deserves to play above Scandella or McCabe.

GOALIE

Lehner-Johnson is obvious.

Just not sure we have the wingers yet to support all 4 centres.

Kane - Eichel - Reinhart
Pouliot - ROR - Okposo
Girgensons - Larsson - Pominville
Moulson - Josefson - Erod/Fasching

Just seems like a better lineup to me with Reinhart in the top 6.

 

[joshjull]

Just not sure we have the wingers yet to support all 4 centres.

Kane - Eichel - Reinhart
Pouliot - ROR - Okposo
Girgensons - Larsson - Pominville
Moulson - Josefson - Erod/Fasching

Just seems like a better lineup to me with Reinhart in the top 6.

You've got it backwards. The centers drive a line not the wingers. If you need wingers to support a center then thats not a very good center.

 

[BananaSquad]

You've got it backwards. The centers drive a line not the wingers. If you need wingers to support a center then thats not a very good center.

Yes i understand, but who is going to play that right wing spot with Girgs and Eichel.... i dont see anyone unless Nylander is ready.

 

[Rasmus CacOlainen]

Yes i understand, but who is going to play that right wing spot with Girgs and Eichel.... i dont see anyone unless Nylander is ready.

Baptiste/Bailey/Nylander/Griffith...whoever shows up best in camp.

 

[BananaSquad]

Baptiste/Bailey/Nylander/Griffith...whoever shows up best in camp.

Is going to be on the top line... okay.

 

[joshjull]

Yes i understand, but who is going to play that right wing spot with Girgs and Eichel.... i dont see anyone unless Nylander is ready.

I don't know but I also don't know if Girgs/Eichel will be a thing either. Thats kind of the point. Don't be too rigid in your thinking coming into this training camp/preseason on what the lines will look like. We have a lot of options with the flexibility some of our forwards give us with the positions they can play. Outside of a few givens at forward** there will be a lot that needs to be sorted out in camp/preseason with who plays where.

** The givens at forward being.....

-Eichel/ROR as the top two centers
-Okposo/Pommer as 2 of the top 3 RWs
-Kane/ Pouliot as 2 of the top 3 LWs

I think how our forwards shake out will be incredibly interesting to watch.

 

[Rasmus CacOlainen]

Is going to be on the top line... okay.

You roll 3 scoring lines, there's no "1st line". If you call Kane, Reinhart and Pominville 3rd line in the true sense of the phrase you are thinking it wrong. One of the 4 can easily show in camp he's worth a shot. Maybe even Fasching but I like more for the 4th line role personally unless we sign a 1 year vet for that.

 

[joshjull]

I don't know but I also don't know if Girgs/Eichel will be a thing either. Thats kind of the point. Don't be too rigid in your thinking coming into this training camp/preseason on what the lines will look like. We have a lot of options with the flexibility some of our forwards give us with the positions they can play. Outside of a few givens at forward** there will be a lot that needs to be sorted out in camp/preseason with who plays where.

** The givens at forward being.....

-Eichel/ROR as the top two centers
-Okposo/Pommer as 2 of the top 3 RWs
-Kane/ Pouliot as 2 of the top 3 LWs

I think how our forwards shake out will be incredibly interesting to watch.

As that gets sorted out it will impact where forwards get slotted. As an example the 3rd line center spot. We currently have 3 options for that spot (Reinhart, Larsson and Girgs). If its Larsson then Sam moves to being a RW option and Girgs moves to be a 4th line center option (along with Josefson) or LW/RW option. If its Sam picked as the 3rd line center then Girgs options stay the same and Larsson is in the mix to play 4th line center (along with Josefson/Girgs) or LW.

 

[NotABadPeriod]

Also, it either puts Antipin (being with Scandella) or Risto in the defensive deployment position. As I said previously, I want to spare Risto that, and if there is one thing Antipin is certainly not well suited for it is that. As much as he's not well suited for it, Bogosian is probably the one that falls into that role, if Scandella is used in such a way apart from Risto.

McCabe/Beaulieu-Risto
Scandella-Bogosian
M/B-Antipin

I'm not sure there's any pairing with Bogosian that I really like right now. But a lot of that comes from not knowing exactly what sort of system Housley is going to play, and without knowing that trying to guess how Bogosian is going to play (and who would mesh well with that) is really, really difficult.

 

[Chainshot]

So much of this likely comes down to how the new regime views players by position. Reinhart at RW2 or C3 is the biggest question, but where to put Girgensons is also a question -- LW1-3, C3-4, even RW. Then do they bury Moulson down the lineup or find minutes for him in the top 9? Moulson with Larsson and Pominville would be far too slow as a trio so it seems like he'd have to be on Eichel's wing if he's up there since ROR's line likely draws a tougher matchup (better suited to Girgensons ability to get up and down the ice and also not be a suck in his own zone).

First blush with a pencil I get:


Girgensons - O'Reilly - Okposo
Pouliot - Eichel - Reinhart
Kane - Larsson - Pominville
Moulson - Josefsson - (Rodrigues)

Plugging Reinhart into the middle is this:

Pouliot - O'Reilly - Okposo
Moulson - Eichel - Pominville
Kane - Reinhart - Girgensons
Josefsson - Larsson - (Rodrigeus)

Keeping Reinhart on the wing, moving Girgensons back into the middle:

Pouliot (maybe Moulson*shudder*) - O'Reilly - Okposo
Kane (maybe Pouliot, maybe Moulson) - Eichel - Reinhart
Moulson - Girgensons/Larsson - Pominville
Josefsson - Girgensons/Larsson - (Rodrigues)


Ugh. Throw names into a hat... pick.

 

[NotABadPeriod]

So much of this likely comes down to how the new regime views players by position. Reinhart at RW2 or C3 is the biggest question, but where to put Girgensons is also a question -- LW1-3, C3-4, even RW. Then do they bury Moulson down the lineup or find minutes for him in the top 9? Moulson with Larsson and Pominville would be far too slow as a trio so it seems like he'd have to be on Eichel's wing if he's up there since ROR's line likely draws a tougher matchup (better suited to Girgensons ability to get up and down the ice and also not be a suck in his own zone).

First blush with a pencil I get:


Girgensons - O'Reilly - Okposo
Pouliot - Eichel - Reinhart
Kane - Larsson - Pominville
Moulson - Josefsson - (Rodrigues)

Plugging Reinhart into the middle is this:

Pouliot - O'Reilly - Okposo
Moulson - Eichel - Pominville
Kane - Reinhart - Girgensons
Josefsson - Larsson - (Rodrigeus)

Keeping Reinhart on the wing, moving Girgensons back into the middle:

Pouliot (maybe Moulson*shudder*) - O'Reilly - Okposo
Kane (maybe Pouliot, maybe Moulson) - Eichel - Reinhart
Moulson - Girgensons/Larsson - Pominville
Josefsson - Girgensons/Larsson - (Rodrigues)


Ugh. Throw names into a hat... pick.

Don't worry. Someone will get injured and mess up all the combos.