Roster Building XIX - Did we blow the deadline? Need to ask the magic 8-ball

[Blueline Bomber]

KK has not been one of our better faceoff guys this year. Of our 4 centers to start the season,
Staal, Aho and Drury have all been better. He’s been better than Kuzy, but we’re talking 50% vs 45%.



KK has 3 goals and 10 points in 54 games since Dec 1st.

Kuzy has 2G, 7P in 16 games coming to a new team.

I stand corrected on the faceoffs. He was quite good earlier in the year. Didn’t realize he had such a fall off.

And yeah, Kuzy has played nothing but top 6 minutes and PP time since joining the team, as well as being more naturally gifted offensively. I’d expect him to put up more points than the KK that has been playing bottom 6 minutes and asked to play the more defensive role.

The point is that Kuzy has been playing those minutes, playing on the PP, and playing in that offensive role and has 2G, 7 points in 16 games. For comparison, Martinook has 3 G, 6 points in those same 16 games.

 

[bleedgreen]

I stand corrected on the faceoffs. He was quite good earlier in the year. Didn’t realize he had such a fall off.

And yeah, Kuzy has played nothing but top 6 minutes and PP time since joining the team, as well as being more naturally gifted offensively. I’d expect him to put up more points than the KK that has been playing bottom 6 minutes and asked to play the more defensive role.

The point is that Kuzy has been playing those minutes, playing on the PP, and playing in that offensive role and has 2G, 7 points in 16 games. For comparison, Martinook has 3 G, 6 points in those same 16 games.

KK had his chance the whole first half and beyond this season as the 2C, he played with the same higher end talent that Kuzy has. It didn’t work. Kuzy makes that line more dangerous even if they don’t put up huge points, they make the defense work to keep them off the score sheet. Kuzy makes mistakes but makes great plays too, KK was just void. You have to be mildly dangerous to play in that role.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

KK had his chance the whole first half and beyond this season as the 2C, he played with the same higher end talent that Kuzy has. It didn’t work. Kuzy makes that line more dangerous even if they don’t put up huge points, they make the defense work to keep them off the score sheet. Kuzy makes mistakes but makes great plays too, KK was just void. You have to be mildly dangerous to play in that role.

The main issue with KK is that Staal is still playing at a high level at 3C. For all intents and purposes, that role would be ideal for KK.

 

[Stickpucker]

Kokonut be like

 

[Blueline Bomber]

KK had his chance the whole first half and beyond this season as the 2C, he played with the same higher end talent that Kuzy has. It didn’t work. Kuzy makes that line more dangerous even if they don’t put up huge points, they make the defense work to keep them off the score sheet. Kuzy makes mistakes but makes great plays too, KK was just void. You have to be mildly dangerous to play in that role.

Nowhere did I say KK should play the 2C role. In fact, I said the opposite. I said he’s a bottom 6 player. The whole discussion started because I felt there was still a role for KK on the team because of his ability to play in the bottom 6 effectively while being able to jump into the top 6 as needed, compared to someone like Necas (who appears to be on his way out) or Kuzy who wouldn’t do as well in the bottom 6 role.

 

[Svechhammer]

Nowhere did I say KK should play the 2C role. In fact, I said the opposite. I said he’s a bottom 6 player. The whole discussion started because I felt there was still a role for KK on the team because of his ability to play in the bottom 6 effectively while being able to jump into the top 6 as needed, compared to someone like Necas (who appears to be on his way out) or Kuzy who wouldn’t do as well in the bottom 6 role.

A bottom 6 guy is replaceable fodder, either through ELC or vet discount. KK is at best a $4.8m 4th line winger right now, which isn't feasible in the current climate.

 

[chaz4hockey]

Staal’s continued very good defensive play (not as consistent as previous years though) and great PK/faceoff work at $2.9 for next 3 years is what sinks KK.

Of course, 2 years from now we may be complaining that Staal is an overpaid 4th liner but with cap rises perhaps less of an issue.

I want to keep Jarvis , guentzal and Necas and are willing to sacrifice KK and TT to do so.

 

[FlyingSquirrels]

We can easily keep all 3 as long as Rod is willing to play a rookie D-man and about 2 rookie forwards. He is usually a "lean on the vets" guy though. Interesting offseason upcoming no doubt.

 

[Svechhammer]

We can easily keep all 3 as long as Rod is willing to play a rookie D-man and about 2 rookie forwards. He is usually a "lean on the vets" guy though. Interesting offseason upcoming no doubt.

There's a part of me that wants to look at next year as a setup year for the future. Play those rookies, and let them take their lumps. By the time the playoffs hit they should be adjusted to the game it could all come together. And if it works, you have a few contributing guys on super cheap deals when Nikishin comes in and we are able to really load up on a couple high dollar short term deals elsewhere to keep the train rolling

 

[chaz4hockey]

Agree re: setup year. We have a young core that if Borg juggles it properly can lead to a Boston like multi-year of excellence run.

exciting times.

 

[NotOpie]

I guess i'm stubbornly still in the "keep Kotkaniemi" camp. The last few games he's played, he acquitted himself quite well. My sense is that he went through a slump and lost his confidence and is in the process of slowly building it back up. He even played on the left wing a few times and didn't look out of place. We have Kuzy for one more season and I still feel he's got a few things to continue to prove.

Since the beginning of February, KK has 2 goals and 5 points. If you want to do a center on center comparison, Jack Drury has 0 goals and 5 points during the same time span. Interestingly enough, Stephan Noesen only has 3 goals and 8 points during that same time period....and that's with more PP time than Kotkaniemi, I believe. My point is that we weren't getting a lot of scoring from our 4th line. If we're going to rest guys down the stretch, I'm wondering if you don't sub KK in either at center or left wing. You will almost certainly need him during the post-season as injuries are going to happen.

Regarding Necas, I believe it is a bit of a made up narrative that he's on the block. I'm not even sure where things stand on an extension, but we've got 2 more years of control w/Necas. The only way I'd trade him is if we got a similar skilled player back. I don't think it matters if it is a forward or a defender. The issue is getting a player who can contribute like he can and does. My sense is you don't trade guys like Marty Necas at 25. You cultivate them and continue to ensure their game and the team game meet in the middle.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Regarding Necas, I believe it is a bit of a made up narrative that he's on the block. I'm not even sure where things stand on an extension, but we've got 2 more years of control w/Necas. The only way I'd trade him is if we got a similar skilled player back. I don't think it matters if it is a forward or a defender. The issue is getting a player who can contribute like he can and does. My sense is you don't trade guys like Marty Necas at 25. You cultivate them and continue to ensure their game and the team game meet in the middle.

I believe in his most recent 30 thoughts, Friedman mentioned he believes the Necas saga will be resolved this summer. He didn't mention whether that's a trade or an extension, but given that we've (allegedly) had Necas on the trading block for the last few major pieces we've tried to acquire, it seems likely that it's a trade.

 

[NotOpie]

I believe in his most recent 30 thoughts, Friedman mentioned he believes the Necas saga will be resolved this summer. He didn't mention whether that's a trade or an extension, but given that we've (allegedly) had Necas on the trading block for the last few major pieces we've tried to acquire, it seems likely that it's a trade.

Yeah, when I listened to it, it seemed like the emphasis was on resolution....not the type of resolution. As I think we all know, it will come down to what Marty will accept contract-wise. If he's willing to take a deal that starts with a 6, then he's likely here. If not, then all bets are off.

 

[Svechhammer]

Yeah, when I listened to it, it seemed like the emphasis was on resolution....not the type of resolution. As I think we all know, it will come down to what Marty will accept contract-wise. If he's willing to take a deal that starts with a 6, then he's likely here. If not, then all bets are off.

If I was Necas I'd take minimal team bridge to get to UFA hoping that playing wing for a year or 2 with an offensive center like Kuzy brings out my scoring potential. But I like to bet on myself, so....

 

[Stickpucker]

I guess i'm stubbornly still in the "keep Kotkaniemi" camp. The last few games he's played, he acquitted himself quite well. My sense is that he went through a slump and lost his confidence and is in the process of slowly building it back up. He even played on the left wing a few times and didn't look out of place. We have Kuzy for one more season and I still feel he's got a few things to continue to prove.

Since the beginning of February, KK has 2 goals and 5 points. If you want to do a center on center comparison, Jack Drury has 0 goals and 5 points during the same time span. Interestingly enough, Stephan Noesen only has 3 goals and 8 points during that same time period....and that's with more PP time than Kotkaniemi, I believe. My point is that we weren't getting a lot of scoring from our 4th line. If we're going to rest guys down the stretch, I'm wondering if you don't sub KK in either at center or left wing. You will almost certainly need him during the post-season as injuries are going to happen.

Regarding Necas, I believe it is a bit of a made up narrative that he's on the block. I'm not even sure where things stand on an extension, but we've got 2 more years of control w/Necas. The only way I'd trade him is if we got a similar skilled player back. I don't think it matters if it is a forward or a defender. The issue is getting a player who can contribute like he can and does. My sense is you don't trade guys like Marty Necas at 25. You cultivate them and continue to ensure their game and the team game meet in the middle.

The fact Kotkaniemi, who has a 4.8m cap hit, is being compared with Drury and Noesen says it all.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

The fact Kotkaniemi, who has a 4.8m cap hit, is being compared with Drury and Noesen says it all.

He's also being compared to Staal, who until recently, was making $6 million to play a similar role to the role KK was supposed to play when we signed him to his deal.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I disagree on the similar role to Staal notion.

KK was brought in to be a 2C once Trocheck was let go. He wasn't brought in to play Staal's role, because Staal was still going to be here, even after his contract was up.

 

[Chrispy]

I disagree on the similar role to Staal notion.

KK was brought in to be a 2C once Trocheck was let go. He wasn't brought in to play Staal's role, because Staal was still going to be here, even after his contract was up.

You could have argued that Kotkaniemi and Staal would shift down one line with a true 2C brought in (like Kuznetsov.) But Drury coming in and surpassing Kotkaniemi December through February has only further shone a light on Kotkaniemi's extended slump after playing very well for most of 2023.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

I disagree on the similar role to Staal notion.

KK was brought in to be a 2C once Trocheck was let go. He wasn't brought in to play Staal's role, because Staal was still going to be here, even after his contract was up.

I think that was an ambitious ask, given KK had done little to show he could come anywhere close to Trocheck's production.

 

[The Jerk Store]

I'm still of the mindset that Canes mgmt was confident that Montreal would match the offer sheet.

 

[bleedgreen]

I think that was an ambitious ask, given KK had done little to show he could come anywhere close to Trocheck's production.

There were very few posters here who believed KK wouldn’t succeed as a Tro replacement. I agree 100% it was an ambitious ask. I absolutely think management saw KK taking that role, though I think they may have believed he was versatile enough to move to wing and still be effective if it didn’t work out. I think this trade kind of blew up in their faces a bit, though I don’t think it’s that big a deal aside from free agency this summer. Once Staal retires KK will still have years on his deal and could maybe then be the 3C if he can weather the storm and stick around. So many moving pieces this summer it’s hard to say who won’t be needed. It would be a shame if we lose a big name now because of him and his contract.

The way he’s playing right now I question a lot about him. How long would his NHL career be moving forward if this was his level of play and he wasn’t on his contract? You hope he can raise the level when given a good chance again. It could be he just doesn’t fit the system very well, like Bunting but it seems he’s pretty good at least defensively in it.

He's also being compared to Staal, who until recently, was making $6 million to play a similar role to the role KK was supposed to play when we signed him to his deal.

The Staal contract was ridiculous. That should hardly be the baseline for that role.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

You could have argued that Kotkaniemi and Staal would shift down one line with a true 2C brought in (like Kuznetsov.) But Drury coming in and surpassing Kotkaniemi December through February has only further shone a light on Kotkaniemi's extended slump after playing very well for most of 2023.

I wouldn't argue that. Because KK isn't as good, nor as proven as Staal in that 3C, shut down line role who faces top competition. If KK didn't work out in the 2C role, he wasn't supplanting Staal until Staal shows he can't do it any longer.

I think that was an ambitious ask, given KK had done little to show he could come anywhere close to Trocheck's production.

I agree it was an ambitious ask, but it's why he was brought in. Aho was our 1C, Staal was our 3C. So that left 2C which people either expected or hoped he would fill. He wasn't brought in to replace Staal, because frankly, he's not better than Staal, particularly in the role Staal plays.

 

[Canes]

Staal provided Selke caliber defense going up against top lines while putting up .5+ PPG. And he played on worse teams with some pretty bad line mates many of those years. KK gets way easier matchups and is just mediocre.

 

[hblueridgegal]

I hope that all the offseason speculation doesn't derail or impact the playoff performance. Focusing on the moment is sometimes easier said than done when impending change is in the air.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

The original consensus on KK was:

Option 1, upside: 2nd line center
Option 2, fallback: D-focused 3rd line center
Option 3, worst case: trade/cheap buyout

Looks like we're at option 3 to me. Some of that is KK, and some of it is that the Canes FO has been really aggressive in continuing to bring in talent, but regardless, if we have Aho/Kuzy/Staal for another year down the middle, KK is not cracking that lineup and is making way too much for 4C. If he can be a 3C somewhere else, let him go be that and Godspeed to him.