Speculation: Roster Building Thread: Part XXXV

[duhmetreE]

No one is saying that he will stop producing...

The question is whether or not he’d still be producing at the level he is today, which is entirely valid.

......

It's under some false premise, where once you turn 30, you become a pumpkin. If the contract were to bring him past 35, I'd agree. He'd be 28-34. Low mileage and no injury history. He's been extremely consistent. Actually improving. What separates him, from the elite of the elite, is PP production. Only 18 PPP

 

[TheBloodyNine]

Doesn’t this then depend on how the contract is structured though? Front loaded with bonuses? If the cap keeps going up, 5 years from now a $9m contract with less real dollars than cap isn’t probably not that difficult to move if the team desired it.

He’s not signing a 9 mill a year contract in New York. It will be double digits.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

He'll look exactly the same.

Better? doubt it. To be better would be the McDavid/Crosby/Kane tier of player.. Younger? by how much? A year? We have a lot of assets but not that many 'premium' ones. We're going to give our top prospects up? instead of just signing a player? Your hypothetical does not hold any weight

As said before, even then. We could have both. We should want a plethora of 'elite' talent.

I do, Panarin gets in the way of that.

Hall and Seguin were both dealt with no top prospects being moved. The best D of our entire generation? Same thing. f*** Subban went for Weber straight up.

We traded McDonagh with out a top guy coming back. The list really goes on and on.

There’s no possible way you can think Panarin is a lock to still be a 75-85 point guy 4 years from now. History says that will probably not be the case.

Also, if shit doesn’t turn around in Edmonton, McDavid is going to want out. Sane will happen in Buffalo with Eichel. I’d rather have a stocked system to make a play for one of those guys than sign Panarin when this team doesn’t know what they have.

There is not a single valid argument to be made for Panarin at the moment. Maybe if they win the lottery but even then, it’d probably be wise to stay away.

Also the list of 30+ year olds you listed, you know what all of those guys have in common?

They’re surrounded by top level talent, something this team does not have at the moment (and we don’t know if we have it coming either.)

 

[Roo Returns]

@bobbop Sorry it took two weeks to respond, work and some personal stuff but can you explain when you said "you lost me there" in regards to not needing to do much on D? They have Hajek who is pretty much guaranteed a spot, they can go bargain bin hunting for another Cleasson/Clendenning type, and betweeen Lindgren/Rykov/NCAA UFA and all the picks, there is not much need to do anything on D for next season.

Would it be nice to move Shattenkirk/Smith/Staal? Absolutely.

Would I be thrilled with getting Byram in the draft? You bet (and to have him or Miller on the ice for most of a game for the 7-9 years is pretty amazing) but for next season it's not worth breaking the bank.

The D will be totally different by as early as 2020-21.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

Well, I'll come out and admit it: I've wavered back and forth on the proper path all year. On the one hand, you have the promising kids, the chemistry of Zibanejad and Kreider, the fact that players like Panarin don't come available for nothing but cash very often. On the other, you have the albatross contracts still on the books, the risk of Panarin declining, the question of Kreider's next contract, etc. And I'm sure there are other factors on both sides I'm not considering (which no doubt you've all covered in the last ten pages I didn't read. )

But now that we're here, at the end of the year, rooting for #5 overall, and then a good result in the lottery...

I have to weigh the scales in favor of conservatism. Trade Kreider in the offseason for a haul, let Panarin go elsewhere, burn another year off the contracts of Staal/Shattenkirk/Smith, sign savvy, low-cost vets, give the C to Zibanejad... and then revisit next year, when you've had another year of collecting assets, another year of development, a cleaner salary cap – and hopefully Hall makes it to UFA.

And of course, collect more 2020 7th round picks.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

Tavares hit free agency. Stamkos also hit free agency before deciding to re-sign with Tampa. Erik Karlsson will probably be a free agent. I’d put good money on Taylor Hall being a free agent next summer. These players do come to free agency.

And more often than free agency, they become available via trade.

 

[duhmetreE]

I do, Panarin gets in the way of that.

Hall and Seguin were both dealt with no top prospects being moved. The best D of our entire generation? Same thing. **** Subban went for Weber straight up.

We traded McDonagh with out a top guy coming back. The list really goes on and on.

There’s no possible way you can think Panarin is a lock to still be a 75-85 point guy 4 years from now. History says that will probably not be the case.

Also, if **** doesn’t turn around in Edmonton, McDavid is going to want out. Sane will happen in Buffalo with Eichel. I’d rather have a stocked system to make a play for one of those guys than sign Panarin when this team doesn’t know what they have.

There is not a single valid argument to be made for Panarin at the moment. Maybe if they win the lottery but even then, it’d probably be wise to stay away.

Also the list of 30+ year olds you listed, you know what all of those guys have in common?

They’re surrounded by top level talent, something this team does not have at the moment (and we don’t know if we have it coming either.)

One probelm.. Chirarelli is out of the league.

No, it doesn't. Elite players continue produce elite numbers, well into their 30's.

Really? We're not going to sign Panarin because we could hypothetically trade for McDavid?

Panarin-Zibanejad-Kravtsov ?

 

[BobMarleyNYR]

I peronally don't see why there's a debate. Gorton publicly said, a year ago, the Rangers won't be doing things like signing Panarin. Do you guys remember the return of Kovalev? Bure, Fleury, Lindros?

 

[duhmetreE]

I peronally don't see why there's a debate. Gorton publicly said, a year ago, the Rangers won't be doing things like signing Panarin. Do you guys remember the return of Kovalev? Bure, Fleury, Lindros?

You have a link to that?

 

[bobbop]

@bobbop Sorry it took two weeks to respond, work and some personal stuff but can you explain when you said "you lost me there" in regards to not needing to do much on D? They have Hajek who is pretty much guaranteed a spot, they can go bargain bin hunting for another Cleasson/Clendenning type, and betweeen Lindgren/Rykov/NCAA UFA and all the picks, there is not much need to do anything on D for next season.

Would it be nice to move Shattenkirk/Smith/Staal? Absolutely.

Would I be thrilled with getting Byram in the draft? You bet (and to have him or Miller on the ice for most of a game for the 7-9 years is pretty amazing) but for next season it's not worth breaking the bank.

The D will be totally different by as early as 2020-21.

I don’t remember the exact details but it’s pretty simple...the Rangers need more quality defenders in the pipeline. Hajak is going to be a good player and Miller certainly looks like he could be a bell cow but those are two ifs. Beyond that, I’m concerned they really need another top pair candidate. I am not in favor of drafting a defenseman at #3-5 (you find elite scoring at the top of the draft, you can find defense elsewhere) but I’m not convinced there is enough in the bank here. Lots of nice players. No one stand out stud.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

One probelm.. Chirarelli is out of the league.

No, it doesn't. Elite players continue produce elite numbers, well into their 30's.

Really? We're not going to sign Panarin because we could hypothetically trade for McDavid?

Panarin-Zibanejad-Kravtsov ?

No, we're not going to sign Panarin because he gets in the way of us landing our own home grown star* and likely won't be worth the money he will get paid halfway through his deal.

Not all elite guys age the same. He may age well, but most guys don't. Brad Richards had a pair of PPG+ seasons prior to signing here, his game started to slip by year 2 (yes he was older, but again that would fall within the 4 year window for Panarin)

Using his lack of PP production in favor of him is hilarious though. Yes I'd rather have a strong 5v5 scorer, but PP production does matter. It's the same thing people said about Rick Nash (Who we also got at 28, was also seen as elite, who saw his game dip by..)

Kravstov hasn't played a single shift in this league. I'm optimistic about him, but he isn't going to step in and rip it up right away. It's most likely going to take a few seasons.

*Again, if they win the lottery, this is worth revisiting. Even then, if everyone who is a pending UFA makes it to July 1st, the Dollars will be better spent on Karlsson than Panarin, even with all the risks involved.

I actually see Panarin on the level of someone like Kessel. Great talent, fantastic player to have if you've already got Malkin and Crosby. Try to get him to lead a group? You saw what happened with the Leafs.

Lets not become the Leafs before they got smart.

 

[NYR Viper]

He’s not signing a 9 mill a year contract in New York. It will be double digits.

People say these things like their facts though. People said Shattenkirk was going to get a 7 year deal.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

People say these things like their facts though. People said Shattenkirk was going to get a 7 year deal.

Shattenkirk grew up an NYR fan and was willing to compromise to play here. Not the same thing with Panarin.

 

[RGY]

Sure. I see the right way, and you see the Minnesota wild way. It’s ok.

You are laugh out loud funny. “You see the right way”. The almighty internet poster on a message board “knows” the right way a rebuild should proceed.

This is comical stuff at this point.

 

[NYR Viper]

I don’t remember the exact details but it’s pretty simple...the Rangers need more quality defenders in the pipeline. Hajak is going to be a good player and Miller certainly looks like he could be a bell cow but those are two ifs. Beyond that, I’m concerned they really need another top pair candidate. I am not in favor of drafting a defenseman at #3-5 (you find elite scoring at the top of the draft, you can find defense elsewhere) but I’m not convinced there is enough in the bank here. Lots of nice players. No one stand out stud.

ADA, Skjei, Lundqvist, Rykov, Lindgren and Fox if they can sign him. They have some nice pieces, maybe more than a few guys who project as good middle-pairing guys out of that group. If they can keep accruing depth, they will have the chips to trade for a guy who may become available for whatever reason.

 

[NYR Viper]

Shattenkirk grew up an NYR fan and was willing to compromise to play here. Not the same thing with Panarin.

There are rumors that Panarin really wants to play in NY. Again, I’m not still g he should automatically be signed, just that there’s too many unknowns to give a definitive answer yes or no.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

People say these things like their facts though. People said Shattenkirk was going to get a 7 year deal.

He made major concessions to be here.

If he held strong to what the market was offering elsewhere, he wouldn't be here.

 

[RGY]

The examples of players becoming available free agency are:

Tavares who pretty much was a given to be going to TOR or staying with NYI.

Stamkos who was likely staying in TB or going to TOR/MTL. Stayed in TB anyway.

And Karlsson who will be 30 years old this summer.

Keep it coming.

 

[TheBloodyNine]

There are rumors that Panarin really wants to play in NY. Again, I’m not still g he should automatically be signed, just that there’s too many unknowns to give a definitive answer yes or no.

There are also rumors that he really wants to play in Florida too, where he will get more money out of his paycheck.

Tavares really wanted to play in Toronto, a high tax city. He didn’t take a discount, did he?

 

[RGY]

He made major concessions to be here.

If he held strong to what the market was offering elsewhere, he wouldn't be here.

Okay and he didn’t so your point is irrelevant. Vipers point is that given the rumors that Panarin wants to play in NY, specifically the Rangers, those same concessions could be made. Sure he wont make concessions as major as Shattenkirk but he could.

I see the $11.5 number thrown around a lot. The concession could be coming down to $10.

Who knows? No one. No one knows but yet people here talk down to others as if they know something others dont. Its pretty shallow.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

I don’t remember the exact details but it’s pretty simple...the Rangers need more quality defenders in the pipeline. Hajak is going to be a good player and Miller certainly looks like he could be a bell cow but those are two ifs. Beyond that, I’m concerned they really need another top pair candidate. I am not in favor of drafting a defenseman at #3-5 (you find elite scoring at the top of the draft, you can find defense elsewhere) but I’m not convinced there is enough in the bank here. Lots of nice players. No one stand out stud.

100% agreed with this. If we wind up at 3-5, and Byram drops to us, I would seriously consider trading back 1-3 spots to pick up another quality asset if someone at 6-8 is desperate to get him (presuming we have the remaining forwards ranked on a similar level).

I mean, say you're at 4, someone surprises with a Dach/Cozens pick at 3, and you're left with Byram or one of Dach/Cozens, Turcotte, Zegras, Boldy. Do you prefer Byram... or one of the four forwards plus another high pick? It's an easy choice for me.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

The examples of players becoming available free agency are:

Tavares who pretty much was a given to be going to TOR or staying with NYI.

Stamkos who was likely staying in TB or going to TOR/MTL. Stayed in TB anyway.

And Karlsson who will be 30 years old this summer.

Keep it coming.

How far back do we want to go?

There were also Parise and Suter, Marian Hossa , Marian Hossa again, Marian Gaborik, and Ilya Kovalchuk.

Also Karlsson will be 29 next month.

 

[RGY]

There are also rumors that he really wants to play in Florida too, where he will get more money out of his paycheck.

Tavares really wanted to play in Toronto, a high tax city. He didn’t take a discount, did he?

Lmfao yes he did. San Jose offered more money.

John Tavares signs with Toronto Maple Leafs

“Encouraged by the meeting, San Jose proceeded to offer a seven-year, $84 million contract to Tavares and reportedly upped it to seven years, $91 million on Saturday morning (via David Pagnotta of TheFourthPeriod). However, even that was not enough, as Tavares proceeded to take significantly less to play for his hometown Maple Leafs”

Idk about you but $14 million less is a major concession...

 

[duhmetreE]

No, we're not going to sign Panarin because he gets in the way of us landing our own home grown star* and likely won't be worth the money he will get paid halfway through his deal.

Not all elite guys age the same. He may age well, but most guys don't. Brad Richards had a pair of PPG+ seasons prior to signing here, his game started to slip by year 2 (yes he was older, but again that would fall within the 4 year window for Panarin)

Using his lack of PP production in favor of him is hilarious though. Yes I'd rather have a strong 5v5 scorer, but PP production does matter. It's the same thing people said about Rick Nash (Who we also got at 28, was also seen as elite, who saw his game dip by..)

Kravstov hasn't played a single shift in this league. I'm optimistic about him, but he isn't going to step in and rip it up right away. It's most likely going to take a few seasons.

*Again, if they win the lottery, this is worth revisiting. Even then, if everyone who is a pending UFA makes it to July 1st, the Dollars will be better spent on Karlsson than Panarin, even with all the risks involved.

I actually see Panarin on the level of someone like Kessel. Great talent, fantastic player to have if you've already got Malkin and Crosby. Try to get him to lead a group? You saw what happened with the Leafs.

Lets not become the Leafs before they got smart.

Panarin is better than Kessel, he makes players better around him. I feel like I'm going crazy.... Just watch the guy play.

Brad Richards? Besides him being no where close to the talent of Panarin, he fell off at 33. He's a guy that did not fit the speed of the NHL and relied heavily on PP production. Nash? really? Maybe concussions had something to do with it?

You can tell when certain players wont age well ( We had our fair share, Callahn, Girardi, Staal etc ). Panarin is not one of them and there's no connection to guys like Richards or Nash.

 

[RGY]

How far back do we want to go?

There were also Parise and Suter, Marian Hossa , Marian Hossa again, Marian Gaborik, and Ilya Kovalchuk.

Also Karlsson will be 29 next month.

How many other stars were available in each one of those players free agent summers?

Not every player wants to play for the Rangers. There might be, MIGHT BE, one star elite player available each summer and you are banking on them wanting to sign here or choosing to sign here over another interested team.

If the rumors are true that Panarin wants to be here then you have a leg up to add an elite forwars who is 27 years old.